The Tank Thread

[KB21]

5 minutes ago, CBAreject said:

Nobody said that.  Almost every champion has drafted one or both of its best 2 players in the lottery.  The exceptions have traded lottery picks or lottery selected players to build their core.  That doesn’t say that you have to tank to get those lottery picks.  But good luck trading Dwight Howard for one...

It may not have been said, but it is clearly implied.  I can just as easily say that every championship team has added veteran players to their roster to get them to that championship point.  But good luck trying to build a championship team out of an expansion level roster with a bunch of underdeveloped rookies.

[davis171]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

It may not have been said, but it is clearly implied.  I can just as easily say that every championship team has added veteran players to their roster to get them to that championship point.  But good luck trying to build a championship team out of an expansion level roster with a bunch of underdeveloped rookies.

You mean memphis

[KB21]

8 minutes ago, davis171 said:

You mean memphis

The Hawks don't have a single player on the roster as good as Marc Gasol or Mike Conley.

[Royjr9]

12 minutes ago, davis171 said:

What do you call trading away your core that made the playoffs the year before? Had they kept JT, KG and PP they probably would have made the playoffs.

 

Shipped em off for picks ironically that compromises  there core now. Yeah they signed some free agents, but remember kyrie was supposedly trying to get to New York. They signed some veterans but depending on who you believe most only care about kyrie. Seeing horford as overpaid and Gordon as an incomplete cause of the injury.  But long story short Boston tore down a playoff team and used draft picks to build it back up.

[Royjr9]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

The Hawks don't have a single player on the roster as good as Marc Gasol or Mike Conley.

Might be true  but in the case of parsons and Conley if you can’t stay on the floor how good are you really.  They did what you kinda envision. Shipped off zack, paid Conley and parsons way too much money and have an older Gasol sittin around getting older. Meaning the only way they can hope to improve is to tank.

[KB21]

Just now, Royjr9 said:

Might be true  but in the case of parsons and Conley if you can’t stay on the floor how good are you really.  They did what you kinda envision. Shipped off zack, paid Conley and parsons way too much money and have an older Gasol sittin around getting older. Meaning the only way they can hope to improve is to tank.

On the contrary, Memphis is down because of injuries, and they will be adding a top pick to a team that has a healthy Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, two players who can show the young pups what it takes to win in the NBA. 

With Travis's plan, the Hawks young players will have....each other....and will learn how to win from God knows who.

[KB21]

9 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

Shipped em off for picks ironically that compromises  there core now. Yeah they signed some free agents, but remember kyrie was supposedly trying to get to New York. They signed some veterans but depending on who you believe most only care about kyrie. Seeing horford as overpaid and Gordon as an incomplete cause of the injury.  But long story short Boston tore down a playoff team and used draft picks to build it back up.

Boston used veterans to build it back up.  Thomas, Crowder, Horford....all veterans, and all are the reason the Celtics only had the one down season.  That's not a tank.  Tanking teams blow things up and try to build with lottery picks.  

[davis171]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

On the contrary, Memphis is down because of injuries, and they will be adding a top pick to a team that has a healthy Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, two players who can show the young pups what it takes to win in the NBA. 

With Travis's plan, the Hawks young players will have....each other....and will learn how to win from God knows who.

Memphis has 3-4 NBA level players on their entire roster and 0 cap space they will not be good next year.

 

 

[davis171]

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Boston used veterans to build it back up.  Thomas, Crowder, Horford....all veterans, and all are the reason the Celtics only had the one down season.  That's not a tank.  Tanking teams blow things up and try to build with lottery picks.  

You had no response to my post dude. Went from a 40+ win playoff team with PP and KG to a 25 win team without them what do you call that?

[Royjr9]

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

On the contrary, Memphis is down because of injuries, and they will be adding a top pick to a team that has a healthy Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, two players who can show the young pups what it takes to win in the NBA. 

With Travis's plan, the Hawks young players will have....each other....and will learn how to win from God knows who.

The hawks have cap space. Not everybody will be resigning with current team. Shift through some of that and you will run into some decent guys.

 

3 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Boston used veterans to build it back up.  Thomas, Crowder, Horford....all veterans, and all are the reason the Celtics only had the one down season.  That's not a tank.  Tanking teams blow things up and try to build with lottery picks.  

 Yet none of those guys are there now save for horford. Yes the traded for crowder and Isaiah on cheap deals that their teams realized was prolly going to be an overpay. Ironically Seems to me Boston did what Atlanta tried to do with bellineli and illysova. Teams just weren’t fooled because they are afterthoughts after the after thought. No shame in that and the hawks had to spend the money somewhere besides throwing it to a pf who is good but prolly will get worse in passing seasons. 

[MaceCase]

8 hours ago, KB21 said:

Question for the pro tankers.  Minnesota, with their two #1 overall picks, is currently in danger of missing out on the playoffs.  They have fallen to the 6th slot and are only 2.5 games up on the team in the 9th spot right now.  How can this be?  Surely those generational stars they got with the #1 overall picks can offset the loss of 30th pick Jimmy Butler.

Yea, they might end up out of the playoffs with the team that gave Millsap 30 million a year.  So what lesson are the anti tankers teaching here?

4 hours ago, KB21 said:

On the contrary, Memphis is down because of injuries, and they will be adding a top pick to a team that has a healthy Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, two players who can show the young pups what it takes to win in the NBA. 

With Travis's plan, the Hawks young players will have....each other....and will learn how to win from God knows who.

Marc has missed 2 games all season.  He's surely done a great job so far of showing what it takes to win in the NBA.  Conley will have to make up all the difference as they won't have much in the way of vet reinforcements given their cap situation.

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, High5 said:

1. What does Horford have to do with anything? He was gone a year before Schlenk took the job. "All-Stars" Teague and Korver were gone as well. An unsigned Sap was the only one still around when Schlenk chose to tank. 

2. I have no idea what you're trying to accomplish with the LeBron comments, but they're irrelevant to this discussion.

3. I referred to my original post which is where I commented on the Detroit and LA exceptions. Feel free to read it again. 

4. Boston had a HOF former lottery pick on their roster and they traded two lottery picks (along with a lot of other players/picks) to acquire two more HOF former lottery picks. What are you not understanding about this? 

You also said:

Quote

This is why I have to take breaks before jumping back into the tank discussion. Use your head, man. Does LeBron go to Miami without Wade? Does LeBron go to Cleveland without Kyrie and Love? Does KD go to GS without Steph and Klay? Thanks for graciously conceding San Antonio, but how about the lottery picks involved in the Boston and Dallas championships? Right, so we're back to my original post. You need lottery picks to win championships, plain and simple. 

When I mentioned  Boston, I wanted you to see the difference between FAcy and Trades.   Ainge traded for both Allen and KG.  They didn't have a real choice in saying.. I want to go to Boston and play with Pierce.  In fact, KG hated the idea.  

Quote

The only problem was KG wanted nothing to do with Boston. He wanted warm weather and a chance to contend, not icy winters and the second-worst team in the league. Garnett (who had a player option the next summer) made it clear he wouldn’t sign an extension. In turn, Ainge wasn’t about to give up Al Jefferson and the No. 5 pick for a one-year rental.

Both sides walked away and turned attention to the draft.

Whereas, you talk about Lebron.  Lebron holds summits, pick the players who he wants to play with and holds his teams hostage by signing 1 year deals.   There's a difference.  Lebron can't be traded easily and he doesn't go where he doesn't want to go.  Secondly, lottery picks aren't as inticing to other teams as you think.  How many times have an established star in this league been traded for a lottery pick? Usually, an established star is traded for a package.  So what's our package going to be?  The first and Dennis?  The first and Collins?  I keep hearing Prince's name come up but Prince has negative value right now.  He's a project that you have to pay.

If only we could match our first with a guy like Millsap or THJr or even D8.  While those guys are vets, they could have gotten us something of value back. 

 

[Lurker]

Whoever says that you build purely through the draft, is in their own little world of delusion. None of us have said that and I especially haven't. That doesn't work but neither does the idea of not accepting ever losing. Its going to happen. It's unavoidable...just like time moving on and on is. The Spurs have been the best at avoiding it but eventually, their time with that will come too. 

The best kind of team you can build has a mixture of veterans and young players.

[davis171]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

You also said:

When I mentioned  Boston, I wanted you to see the difference between FAcy and Trades.   Ainge traded for both Allen and KG.  They didn't have a real choice in saying.. I want to go to Boston and play with Pierce.  In fact, KG hated the idea.  

Whereas, you talk about Lebron.  Lebron holds summits, pick the players who he wants to play with and holds his teams hostage by signing 1 year deals.   There's a difference.  Lebron can't be traded easily and he doesn't go where he doesn't want to go.  Secondly, lottery picks aren't as inticing to other teams as you think.  How many times have an established star in this league been traded for a lottery pick? Usually, an established star is traded for a package.  So what's our package going to be?  The first and Dennis?  The first and Collins?  I keep hearing Prince's name come up but Prince has negative value right now.  He's a project that you have to pay.

If only we could match our first with a guy like Millsap or THJr or even D8.  While those guys are vets, they could have gotten us something of value back.

100% the main asset in The trade for Kyrie Irving was the Nets pick. No one would trade for Sap on a 30 million deal because the hawks won't want incoming cap unless you are willing to attach several picks. Sap at 30 million a year is a bad deal. Dwight at 23 million a year is a bad deal. Hardaway at 70 million is a bad deal.

So wait you wanted Hardaway back at 70 million!!! You have no since for the cap. Why Would Ressler go way over the cap to maybe make the playoffs.

Edited March 9, 2018 by davis171

[AHF]

8 hours ago, KB21 said:

It's clearly implied.  Where else do you think all the comments about having to tank to be able to win a championship comes from?

[AHF]

7 hours ago, KB21 said:

On the contrary, Memphis is down because of injuries, and they will be adding a top pick to a team that has a healthy Marc Gasol and Mike Conley, two players who can show the young pups what it takes to win in the NBA. 

With Travis's plan, the Hawks young players will have....each other....and will learn how to win from God knows who.

There is no more blatant tanking than Memphis.  Conley could return this season but they shut him down literally for the rest of the year and Marc Gasol is openly complaining that they aren't even trying to win.  If they succeed, they will be an example of a tank job.

[High5]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

You also said:

When I mentioned  Boston, I wanted you to see the difference between FAcy and Trades.   Ainge traded for both Allen and KG.  They didn't have a real choice in saying.. I want to go to Boston and play with Pierce.  In fact, KG hated the idea.  

Whereas, you talk about Lebron.  Lebron holds summits, pick the players who he wants to play with and holds his teams hostage by signing 1 year deals.   There's a difference.  Lebron can't be traded easily and he doesn't go where he doesn't want to go.  Secondly, lottery picks aren't as inticing to other teams as you think.  How many times have an established star in this league been traded for a lottery pick? Usually, an established star is traded for a package.  So what's our package going to be?  The first and Dennis?  The first and Collins?  I keep hearing Prince's name come up but Prince has negative value right now.  He's a project that you have to pay.

If only we could match our first with a guy like Millsap or THJr or even D8.  While those guys are vets, they could have gotten us something of value back. 

 

You're arguing things that don't matter. You also left out the part where KG changed his mind. The whole point of this discussion is whether or not drafting in the lottery is necessary to win a championship. The overwhelming evidence says yes. Boston and Cleveland are two of the many examples, regardless of how you view the circumstances.

As for potential packages, who knows? We're not trying to trade for a star player this offseason and we may never need to. We have 5 possible first round picks coming up in the next two drafts. We will have money to spend. Many things can happen in the next 3+ years. 

What I do know is staying the course so we could trade our mid-round pick along with Dwight, Sap, or THJ with their contracts would have gotten us nowhere. 

[AHF]

49 minutes ago, davis171 said:

100% the main asset in The trade for Kyrie Irving was the Nets pick. No one would trade for Sap on a 30 million deal because the hawks won't want incoming cap unless you are willing to attach several picks. Sap at 30 million a year is a bad deal. Dwight at 23 million a year is a bad deal. Hardaway at 70 million is a bad deal.

So wait you wanted Hardaway back at 70 million!!! You have no since for the cap. Why Would Ressler go way over the cap to maybe make the playoffs.

 

Roster Spots	KB Roster	Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	Jordan Bell	$1,936,920
6	Juwon Evans	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12	Thabo Sephalosha	$5,250,000
13
14
15
	Total:	$112,671,639

 

Roster Spots	Diesel Roster	Salary
1	Dwight Howard	$23,500,000
2	Paul Millsap	$31,269,231
3	Kent Bazemore	$16,910,113
4	Ersan Ilyasova	$6,000,000
5	John Collins	$1,936,920
6	Tyler Dorsey	$815,615
7	Dennis Schröder	$15,500,000
8	Malcolm Delaney	$2,500,000
9	Taurean Waller-Prince	$2,422,560
10	DeAndre' Bembry	$1,567,200
11	Mike Muscala	$5,000,000
12	Tim Hardaway	$16,500,000
13
14
15
	Total:	$123,921,639

[KB21]

7 hours ago, Royjr9 said:

The hawks have cap space. Not everybody will be resigning with current team. Shift through some of that and you will run into some decent guys.

 

 Yet none of those guys are there now save for horford. Yes the traded for crowder and Isaiah on cheap deals that their teams realized was prolly going to be an overpay. Ironically Seems to me Boston did what Atlanta tried to do with bellineli and illysova. Teams just weren’t fooled because they are afterthoughts after the after thought. No shame in that and the hawks had to spend the money somewhere besides throwing it to a pf who is good but prolly will get worse in passing seasons. 

Boston targeted players who were undervalued in the market and brought them in to win.

Schlenk targeted trash on the market and brought them in to lose.

[KB21]

3 hours ago, MaceCase said:

Yea, they might end up out of the playoffs with the team that gave Millsap 30 million a year.  So what lesson are the anti tankers teaching here?

Marc has missed 2 games all season.  He's surely done a great job so far of showing what it takes to win in the NBA.  Conley will have to make up all the difference as they won't have much in the way of vet reinforcements given their cap situation.

The lesson is quite obvious.  If they miss out, this will be what, 15 straight years in the lottery for them?