Supes v. KB, Nope! Just some JJJ v. Marvin Bagley talk

[KB21]

Just now, NBASupes said:

All data shows Wiggins is likely to be a role player and at best, a starter. All data shows Bagley is most likely to a star. Why do you keep bringing up Wiggins?

Wiggins and Bagley have essentially the same data set.  Bagley has a bit higher BPM because he is more efficient on offense, but both are negative defenders and bring nothing outside of scoring to the table.

[nathan2331]

 

 

Or the ultimate superstar Andrew Wiggins.  Look at how much that guy contributes to to wins for Minnesota.  

That's our goal!!  We have to get the next Andrew Wiggins!!  If you play any defense, you are not a star.  

 

Do you at least ever think that maybe Wiggins would be better if he wasn't drafted by the Wolves? No, he doesn't play effective basketball, but he isn't a useless player either. He did well enough Minnesota thought they needed to max him out, even if it was a dumb decision the minute they made it. On a different team, if a coach could get him to improve his game he definitely could be a star. Who knows if we'll ever see it?

[NBASupes]

Just now, KB21 said:

Wiggins and Bagley have essentially the same data set.  Bagley has a bit higher BPM because he is more efficient on offense, but both are negative defenders and bring nothing outside of scoring to the table.

Lol, there is no chart with that. The closest to Bagley is Lauri and Donovan Mitchell. Both, superior players than Marvin Williams and Zach Collins 

[Spud2nique]

21 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Brad knows I call him Marvin Jr. That's Jammaliver on RealGM.

Lol really ..cuz he pretends he’s not Brad. 

[KB21]

3 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

 

 

 

 

Do you at least ever think that maybe Wiggins would be better if he wasn't drafted by the Wolves? No, he doesn't play effective basketball, but he isn't a useless player either. He did well enough Minnesota thought they needed to max him out, even if it was a dumb decision the minute they made it. On a different team, if a coach could get him to improve his game he definitely could be a star. Who knows if we'll ever see it?

No, I don't think Wiggins would have ever been a legitimate star player regardless of who coached him.  He is what he is, just like Bagley.  He's a great athlete with a limited skill set and limited BBIQ.  

[nathan2331]

 

 

No, I don't think Wiggins would have ever been a legitimate star player regardless of who coached him.  He is what he is, just like Bagley.  He's a great athlete with a limited skill set and limited BBIQ.  

 

He's also a 20 point scorer (on decent, not amazing efficiency) with room for improvement in all facets of his game. The effort and application isn't there, but a different coach could raise his game. He's been relegated to a third option on the Wolves which might be fair, but it's taken a negative effect on his game. I'd rather have him then Marvin in any point in time. It's not even close. Wiggins could still be great, Marvin never even wanted to.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, KB21 said:

No, I don't think Wiggins would have ever been a legitimate star player regardless of who coached him.  He is what he is, just like Bagley.  He's a great athlete with a limited skill set and limited BBIQ.  

Bagley has very good BBIQ on offense, is an elite athlete, not just a run and jump athlete like Wiggins. Wiggins always had a poor first step and like Marvin Williams and JJJ doesn't slash well through contact as he is weak. How is that anything like Bagley?

I will say this, there is some similarities between Wiggins and Bagley on perimeter defense as both are ++ lateral quickness guys but defensive focus and attention to defensive detail is lacking with both as prospects and we seen Wiggins struggle to improve that part of his game.

[KB21]

Actually, from a numbers standpoint, Bagley is most similar to Jahlil Okafor:

Bagley: 10.7 BPM, 7.7 OBPM, 3.0 DBPM

Okafor: 10.9 BPM, 6.8 OBPM, 4.1 DBPM

[nathan2331]

Actually, from a numbers standpoint, Bagley is most similar to Jahlil Okafor:

Bagley: 10.7 BPM, 7.7 OBPM, 3.0 DBPM

Okafor: 10.9 BPM, 6.8 OBPM, 4.1 DBPM

It's a good thing Bagley can move his feet. Numbers say a lot of things without saying anything at all.

[KB21]

1 minute ago, nathan2331 said:

2 minutes ago, KB21 said:

Actually, from a numbers standpoint, Bagley is most similar to Jahlil Okafor:

Bagley: 10.7 BPM, 7.7 OBPM, 3.0 DBPM

Okafor: 10.9 BPM, 6.8 OBPM, 4.1 DBPM

 

It's a good thing Bagley can move his feet. Numbers say a lot of things without saying anything at all.

When you ignore numbers, you get Andrew Wiggins and pass on Joel Embiid.

[AHF]

Bagley was very efficient scoring in college.  Maintaining that will be key to his future in the NBA.  (Same goes for Young)

[nathan2331]

When you ignore numbers, you get Andrew Wiggins and pass on Joel Embiid.

You pass on Embiid because he had injury concerns. It's amazing what hindsight can do (and I'm somebody who saw Embiid as a better prospect).

[KB21]

2 minutes ago, nathan2331 said:

1 hour ago, KB21 said:

When you ignore numbers, you get Andrew Wiggins and pass on Joel Embiid.

 

You pass on Embiid because he had injury concerns. It's amazing what hindsight can do (and I'm somebody who saw Embiid as a better prospect).

I have found that most of the comments by those stating that they had Embiid as the better prospect are just that.  Hindsight comments.  Fans were foaming at the mouth to get Wiggins back then.  I wasn't.  I'm on record at PTH stating that Embiid was the prize player in that draft.

[nathan2331]

 

 

I have found that most of the comments by those stating that they had Embiid as the better prospect are just that.  Hindsight comments.  Fans were foaming at the mouth to get Wiggins back then.  I wasn't.  I'm on record at PTH stating that Embiid was the prize player in that draft.

 

Wiggins had the hype like you say, but there were plenty of people who thought Embiid was the next Hakeem. If it wasn't for injuries he might've gone first. Teams weren't wrong to be concerned, but thankfully injuries haven't ruined his career. It was looking bad for a while.

 

I liked Wiggins too and unfortunately he hasn't improved like everyone hoped he would. He is not a horrible player, just not what we thought. The Wolves were still right to pick him #1 though, if you can't see that, then so be it.

 

If you don't believe in the hype machine, that's fine. No one denies it's existence. But don't hate on people's opinions just because they happen to align with players Nike or ESPN or whoever try to push.

 

 

I have found that most of the comments by those stating that they had Embiid as the better prospect are just that.  Hindsight comments.  Fans were foaming at the mouth to get Wiggins back then.  I wasn't.  I'm on record at PTH stating that Embiid was the prize player in that draft.

 

Wiggins had the hype like you say, but there were plenty of people who thought Embiid was the next Hakeem. If it wasn't for injuries he might've gone first. Teams weren't wrong to be concerned, but thankfully injuries haven't ruined his career. It was looking bad for a while.

 

I liked Wiggins too and unfortunately he hasn't improved like everyone hoped he would. He is not a horrible player, just not what we thought. The Wolves were still right to pick him #1 though, if you can't see that, then so be it.

 

If you don't believe in the hype machine, that's fine. No one denies it's existence. But don't hate on people's opinions just because they happen to align with players Nike or ESPN or whoever try to push.

[AHF]

8 minutes ago, KB21 said:

LOL!  This idea that fouling because he is an aggressive defender is a red flag, but none of Bagley's bad habits are red flags.

He literally said Bagley and everyone else in the draft have flags for downside risk. 

[Dragitoff]

7 minutes ago, KB21 said:

LOL!  This idea that fouling because he is an aggressive defender is a red flag, but none of Bagley's bad habits are red flags.

Slow down there KB.  I'm not on the Bagley bandwagon either.  I'm simply disagreeing with your comment that he doesn't have any weaknesses or however you stated it.  NONE of these guys are sure-fire generational talents.  We, as fans, are certainly entitled to our opinions, but we should stop acting like any of these guys are slam-dunk prospects.  I disagree with the ones who say they guarantee anyone is a bust or a star because not even the guys who get paid to evaluate these guys would put their careers on the line and state that.  

[KB21]

6 minutes ago, Royjr9 said:

If the goal is positionless basketball which is the way the league is going then they can make it it won’t be easy but they can be playable. 

Even with positionless basketball, the pieces have to fit.  Collins and Bagley both need the ball close to the rim to be effective.  

[Flight]

I want to think that Bagley and Collins couldn’t work on the same team but if CP and Harden, Boogie and AD both worked I know they could find their way as well.

[Royjr9]

Just now, KB21 said:

Even with positionless basketball, the pieces have to fit.  Collins and Bagley both need the ball close to the rim to be effective.  

Collins is working on his shoot as I’m sure bagley is. Two guys who atttack the boards offensive and defensive mind you and are threats anytime on the offensive side of the floor I can live with. Defensively they are going to have to work but like I said they can become passsable. 

[Royjr9]

Just now, Flight said:

I want to think that Bagley and Collins couldn’t work on the same team but if CP and Harden, Boogie and AD both worked I know they could find their way as well.

Oh most definitely it’s not going to be easy but that’s where pierce or any other coach has to earn there chops.