Why didn't a Nique led Hawks team ever make it to the ECF? Was it Nique's Fault?

[sturt]

Haven't read this thread, but I'm sure I'm echoing what someone else has already said.

Nique, and most of his teammates, just weren't ball movers. Celtics always enjoyed that advantage, and I believe when you boil it all down, that was the critical advantage that put them ahead of Nique's teams.

[Thomas]

13 minutes ago, sturt said:

Nique, and most of his teammates, just weren't ball movers. Celtics always enjoyed that advantage, and I believe when you boil it all down, that was the critical advantage that put them ahead of Nique's teams.

Always went with the old line of the rest of the Celts lineup was loaded with future HOFers. And indeed they were.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

4 hours ago, benhillboy said:

Nique never reached a .200 WS/ 48 and never posted a single positive defensive box, a far less impressive advanced metrics resume than his most comparable contemporaries in Paul Pierce and Scottie Pippen.  Where there’s smoke there’s fire: while an entertainer nearly on par with Jordan, Nique simply wasn’t the biggest team guy or floor raiser.  His commentary is a good insight to his player IQ, whatever you may think of that...

Could Nique reached that number if he played alongside Jordan, or had KG and Allen as teammates?  That's why I say it matters who you play with.

What is the all-time Atlanta Hawk team between 1983 - 1994?

 

PG - Mookie

G - ???????

F - Nique

PF - Willis

C - Malone ( or Tree Rollins )

 

I will say that with Nique's athletic ability, he should've been a much better defensive player, whether it be playing the passing lanes to get steals, or using those hops to get more blocks.

[TheFuzz]

Folks saying Draymond is a system player, I say he IS the system. Him and Curry. The list of players who could do what he does is very small. Prime Horford is one of them

[NBASupes]

18 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Could Nique reached that number if he played alongside Jordan, or had KG and Allen as teammates?  That's why I say it matters who you play with.

What is the all-time Atlanta Hawk team between 1983 - 1994?

 

PG - Mookie

G - ???????

F - Nique

PF - Willis

C - Malone ( or Tree Rollins )

 

I will say that with Nique's athletic ability, he should've been a much better defensive player, whether it be playing the passing lanes to get steals, or using those hops to get more blocks.

Mookie might be the 2nd most underrated Hawk of all time. His VORP and advanced statistics was the best of any Hawks in both the 80s and 90s

[Thomas]

At some point you either like watching the games or you rather handle a stats joy stick. Memories will be the last thing we have pretty sure so am going with those. 

[Dejay]

On 9/14/2019 at 6:27 AM, Diesel said:

1987 had to be the worst season of Hawks loss.  We had the 2nd best record in the East (behind Boston).  We were considered a strong team (57 wins).  But we got upended in the playoff 2nd round by the Pistons. 

Check this out.

12 point lead in the 4th quarter of game 5. 

Seems like we quit.

 

Don't remind me. I was there to see it live. Now allow me a few minutes to bang my head on a desk...

Okay, I'm back. The reasons why Nique never got the Hawks to the ECFs and beyond is because 1) the East was absolutely stacked, 2) the Hawks had some decent players around Nique while the competition had HOFers riding shotgun with their stars, and 3) the Hawks' front office was perfectly fine with being good instead of instantly acknowledging the problem and moving Heaven and Earth to become truly elite. 

The only time Kasten bothered putting his chips to the middle of the gambling table was 1988 when he traded for Theus and signed Moses. After that experiment failed, he basically threw his hands up and cried 'salary cap' while the rest of the East passed them by...

[benhillboy]

On 9/14/2019 at 8:19 PM, TheNorthCydeRises said:

Could Nique reached that number if he played alongside Jordan, or had KG and Allen as teammates?  That's why I say it matters who you play with.

What is the all-time Atlanta Hawk team between 1983 - 1994?

 

PG - Mookie

G - ???????

F - Nique

PF - Willis

C - Malone ( or Tree Rollins )

 

I will say that with Nique's athletic ability, he should've been a much better defensive player, whether it be playing the passing lanes to get steals, or using those hops to get more blocks.

Ben Taylor’s Backpicks Series backs up much of what I think of modern player hierarchy, he goes through painstaking detail to try to evaluate players with and without their teammates.  

Towns has gone over .200 WS/48 twice with a lower career usage than Nique yet his team has never come close to the 57 wins Fratello and Nique achieved in ‘87.  Bembry posted a 1.1 defensive box (3rd in minutes) on a dreadful defensive team while Fratello’s team defense led the league in efg allowed that same year.  When Nique was held out of the Hall for a year I take it as a consensus from the voters that Nique should’ve done more with Fratello, Doc, and Kevin, which isn’t farfetched.

Edited September 18, 2019 by benhillboy

[NBASupes]

7 minutes ago, benhillboy said:

Ben Taylor’s Backpicks Series backs up much of what I think of modern player hierarchy, he goes through painstaking detail to try to evaluate players with and without their teammates.  

Towns has gone over .200 WS/48 twice with a lower career usage than Nique yet his team has never come close to the 57 wins Fratello and Nique achieved in ‘87.  Bembry posted a 1.1 defensive box (3rd in minutes) on a dreadful defensive team while Fratello’s team defense led the league in efg allowed that same year.  When Nique was held out of the Hall for a year I take it as a consensus from the voters that Nique should’ve done more with Fratello, Doc, and Kevin, and I agree.

Nique is severely overrated by our fanbase because of his highlights but I don't hold that against us. This is due to the reality that before Trae Young, we never had a top end player on the excitement list other than Pistol Pete. Slim pickings. I always felt Carmelo Anthony and Dominique were overall equals even if they have different types of games. 

People who love either think either are superstars only stopped by the greats of their era. People like me never thought they were good enough unless you loaded the squad around them like Dallas did Dirk. Different stroke for different folks 

Edited September 18, 2019 by NBASupes