Players I like fit wise for us (Lottery)

[KB21]

Watching Edwards tonight.  Athleticism and body is there.  The skill level is lagging behind though.  Could just be a rough night.  His off the ball game needs a lot of work.  The only shot he has made so far tonight is one where he dribble penetrated and attacked the basket.  

[Lurker]

There's days that I like Edwards and days that I don't. Days that he shows that in a few years he could play like what Oladipo worked himself into or like a bigger Mitchell possibly, and days where I honestly SMH at him going to play for Crean (which sucks since I try to pull for Georgia). Since he's not playing with a coach that demands defense and allows guys to go out of structure a lot, I don't know if it's actually helping him. He may honestly have been better off at a blue blood.

The thing that I hate is so far he's shown a great personality for the most part, and yet if he doesn't pull himself together and play more like how he did in the second half vs Michigan State, or first half vs Tennessee where you could see it, just as a couple examples, the Georgia fanbase is going to turn completely against him no matter what. 

If this weren't a bad draft, he might end up locking himself into going back to school. In about a week, I'll be back to liking him, I'm sure. I would probably be fine with trading the pick if it happens. 

[Lurker]

Tom Crean is getting fired within 2 years, 3 years at the most. My God.

Mark Fox was at the point where he needed to go, but Georgia hired a just as awful coach in his place.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Lurker

[NBASupes]

7 hours ago, KB21 said:

Hmm.  So who is this Tsohonis kid at Washington?

He's a 2022 to 2023 kid in my draft book. 

[KB21]

12 hours ago, Lurker said:

There's days that I like Edwards and days that I don't. Days that he shows that in a few years he could play like what Oladipo worked himself into or like a bigger Mitchell possibly, and days where I honestly SMH at him going to play for Crean (which sucks since I try to pull for Georgia). Since he's not playing with a coach that demands defense and allows guys to go out of structure a lot, I don't know if it's actually helping him. He may honestly have been better off at a blue blood.

The thing that I hate is so far he's shown a great personality for the most part, and yet if he doesn't pull himself together and play more like how he did in the second half vs Michigan State, or first half vs Tennessee where you could see it, just as a couple examples, the Georgia fanbase is going to turn completely against him no matter what. 

If this weren't a bad draft, he might end up locking himself into going back to school. In about a week, I'll be back to liking him, I'm sure. I would probably be fine with trading the pick if it happens. 

I’m thinking that maybe we should be looking at Reggie Perry with that Brooklyn pick.  Good lord that kid has turned into a monster down low.

[KB21]

There are very few people that do draft stuff who truly gets my attention when they say certain things.  Rashad Phillips is one guy that does.  He’s earned that kind of respect.  

[NBASupes]

Haliburton

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

51

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Spoiler

Overall thoughts

Coach One: “The biggest thing with him is the ball is in his hands 90 percent of the time. So when you’re playing him, you’re gearing up to make him as uncomfortable as possible. Whether it’s changing defenses, switching different people on him, you want to try to limit his ability to get downhill. And because he’s a tall point guard, he can see over the top of a lot of people. So you have to limit getting downhill, and trying to bother his sight lines as much as possible.

“I understand the concerns, but I think he’s just a good basketball player. And they used him off the ball a lot more last year, too, so he’s versatile. I think he can play both (on- and off-ball). Versatility is good. Say Memphis ends up picking him, you’ve got two guys who can dribble, pass and shoot it. That could be such an unbelievable combination or playmaking. I think Haliburton’s best skill is his unselfishness. That leads him to higher percentage shots. He’s always going to take good shots based on the fact that he’s always trying to get guys open shots.”

Coach Two: “Great vision. Hell of a passer. One of the best passers I’ve seen in college. Great size. Wouldn’t put him on the scouting report as a shooter but streaky and can get hot. Shoots enough of them to where he’s going to make one or two. Very good right hand. Terrible going left. Average defender on a nice day.”

Executive: “I think he’s really solid across the board. I don’t see him as a super high-ceiling kind of guy. But I like his size, I like his feel for the game. That stands out. Doesn’t really shoot it comfortably. I have a feeling a lot of Euro guys will probably be better than some of the American guys that are ranked pretty high. Killian Hayes is super interesting. His size, his feel. I like Haliburton, and I like him for a lot of the same reasons I like Hayes, but for some reason I like Hayes more. He’s more fluid.”

Scout: “Strictly my thoughts (versus my team’s), but I think I like him more than you from what I’ve heard and read. I buy the shot more than you. He has some limitations but he’s made some big leaps with it and could continue to make more. Strength and getting to the rim are concerns for sure.”

Ballhandling

Coach One: “You know, he’s not Magic (Johnson). Magic had a high handle, and a lot of times when guys are tall point guards, people tell them to get lower, get lower. But you almost take away their advantage of seeing over the top when you do that. So I don’t mind the high handle as much, especially with a guy like him, who is as poised as Haliburton is, who is as confident as he is. He’s not a Ja Morant or anything. He doesn’t have that high-level explosiveness. But he does impact the game on every single possession. It’s his feel. That’s why I look at him so valuable. He’s not Magic or Penny (Hardaway) or anything, but he’s got that pose. That ability to rock you to sleep. He’ll go right hand, left hand.

Coach Two: “He’s not good going left. We just said that any time you can, if he’s ever in an isolation situation, try to force him to his left hand. It’s harder with pick-and-rolls because we wanted to stick to our principles and they set a million ball screens, but when we could, we wanted him to go left. We tried to corral and keep him in front, in order to stop him from turning the corner. He did a good job, though, of getting in the lane and being effective.”

Executive: “He’s solid. Athletically and quickness-wise, ability to break guys down, quickness and first step. I think he’s solid. I don’t think he screams NBA athlete, either. I like his skillset, but I’m not blown away. Relative to this class, top-10 is probably realistic. Look at who else is in this class. Someone like Derrick White would be a top-15 guy in this class. I don’t see a ton of guys that really excite me.”

Scout: “Strength is part of the on-ball concern. The Lonzo comp is easy to make with body type, being tall and skinny. But they’re justified, in my opinion. I still think Lonzo will be really good. Tyrese probably won’t be as good with his worse frame. He could have some early struggles but I think he’ll adjust.

Passing

Coach One: “Not just in his ballhandling, but his overall playmaking ability. The guy can make any cross-court pass, he sees things before they even happen. I think his talent level is really good, and I can see why he’s considered a lottery pick in the draft. With his positional size, he can really have an impact on the game. He’ll reject ball screens. Read them, come off of them. He’ll hit the roller if he’s open, or the throwback if he’s open. He’s probably more like Lonzo Ball than anyone else.”

Coach Two: “There is one thing he does better than I think anyone I’ve ever seen. One thing you’re told from the time you pick up a basketball is to never jump and get yourself in the air when you’re trying to make a pass. But he does such a good job of coming off of a pick-and-roll, and he’ll have the 5-man sprinting to the rim, and he’ll jump in the air, and bring the ball above his head, and you think he’s going to hit the corner guy. So the man that is helping on the roller will leave him and sprint back to his man in the corner. But then he’ll just hit the 5 man on a dime. The big is an average college player, but when you play with an exceptional passer like that and he’s good at sprinting to the rim, he makes that kid look good. He’s as good as anyone you’ll see at leaving his feet and still being able to make decisions.”

Shooting

Coach One: “He has deep range. You go out and close-out, and the close-out is late, he goes by you and he’ll make a play for himself or for somebody else. I think the shooting part, especially at the next level in terms of being able to get separation on the jumper when the shot clock is running down, that’s something he’s going to have to work at hard. Here in college, he’s one of those guys with five seconds left, he’s not going to panic, he’ll know when it’s his time to go, and he’s long enough and tall enough to where he can always get a good look off. He just doesn’t get his shot blocked because he’s so big.”

Coach Two: “We certainly didn’t tell our guys to go under ball screens, but we didn’t give him the treatment of a great shooter. I think it can translate. It’s not like his technique is terrible. When he gets to the next level, and someone is working with him and shooting 500 shots a day with him, I can see where he can make a couple a game if he’s playing a lot.”

Executive: “I didn’t realize he shot it as well as he does on a decent clip. I don’t know that I really buy it yet. Mechanically, it’s a little strange. But his numbers, even from the line, they’re great. Personally, I’d need to see him really sit in a gym and rep it out.”

Defense

Coach One: “We talked a lot about taking him when attacking closeouts. But I’d also like to see him in a situation where he’s counted on defensively. At Iowa State, he was probably counted on to stay on the floor most of the game. His defense on the ball may not have always been great. But off the ball, he’s really great. Two and a half steals per game in college. He’s got a great feel. On the ball, when he goes to that next level, it’s going to be more spread out, he’s going to be iso’d. Is he going to be able to slide his feet quick enough? Can he hold his ground when a guy keeps backing him in? Those are the things that would be a slight concern. But of course, you’re not going to be able to find a prospect who can do everything. I don’t know if there is a generational talent out there this year.”

Coach Two: “He wasn’t a guy that you could tell your player, ‘Okay, down screen, go at him.’ But he wasn’t the guy that we were worried about. He was okay. We weren’t trying to attack him, but we felt pretty good that if he was the defender at the top, we could get a bucket. I wouldn’t classify him as a high-level defender, but he’s not the worst. I think he picks and chooses his spots because he knows that he has to stay on the floor. We told our guys that we could attack him off of a closeout.

Where would you take him?

Coach One: “I’ve never heard anything bad about the kid. Always plays with a smile on his face. Looks like a really good leader. They’re struggling, but he seems to have a really positive attitude. I understand why he’s seen as a top prospect in this class that will get taken high.”

Coach Two: “I don’t know the NBA well, but in comparison to where I’ve seen similar prospects taken in the past, I’d take him in the 20s.

Executive: “Personally, I’m not as high. I think a lot of our scouts really, really like him and see him as a top-five guy. I wouldn’t take him that high. I think more in the lottery.”

Scout: “Think he’s in my top 10.”

Vecenie’s Take

As noted above, I’m right in the middle of the projected draft range, but I might be a bit higher on his translation to the NBA than some of the takes given above.

Ultimately, I don’t really think I see Haliburton as a primary lead guard; rather, I think of him more as a secondary ballhandler. In that vein, players like Ball and  White are instructive. Both are capable of being strong rebounding and tough defensive guards who force turnovers and can then lead their teams on the break. However, in the halfcourt, I would want him as more of a second-side ballhandler who gets the ball passed to him on a kickout following penetration from the primary guy, or as a second option to get the ball on a reversal from the primary in a ball screen action after the defense blows up the first part of the set.

I think he could be remarkably successful acting as a decision-maker in that way. One of the bigger market inefficiencies in the game right now is teams having multiple ballhandlers on the floor who can make plays with the ball on drives or via passes. Getting guys who can make rapid decisions on the second-side of the floor really helps to push defenders into rotation, and thus leads to open shots,  especially if the guys with the ball can make passes like Haliburton is capable of making. But because Haliburton isn’t a guy who can create or knock down pull-up shots with ease, or can really create separation with his handle or burst, I do think you need someone next to him on the floor who can do that for situations late in shot clocks.. In that way, the Ball comparison is apt.

However, as Ball has learned early on in his career, the jump shot is a pretty critical piece to being able to perform that role. It’s no coincidence that 2019-20 has been Ball’s best offensive season, when he’s been utilized in this role more and has been able to hit 3s at a 36 percent clip. I don’t think it’s an accident that, during the Pelicans last 10 games, where they have played their best basketball of the season, the Ball-Holiday pairing has a strong 111.5 offensive rating and has a plus-8.1 net rating per 100 possessions. Indeed, I’m one of the evaluators around the league who still has a lot of faith in Ball becoming an effective player, especially now that he’s in a more optimal role for his success.

Such a role would mean that Haliburton has to become an effective shooter off the catch. I do think that will happen. His touch is very good, his range is already extended quite far out, and his ability to hit set shots already is quite strong. Even if I’m skeptical of him as a pull-up threat, that ability to hit shots off the catch seems like a reasonable projection.

If that’s the route for Haliburton, that would be very successful. He’ll have to work on his frame. That he’s 175 pounds right now is going to make it extremely difficult for him early on. He has the kind of shoulders that look capable of handling more strength if he’s willing to put in the gym time, but that’s a critical piece of the evaluation. That’s because the final part of being a role player in today’s NBA as a second guard is that you have to be able to be a multi-positional defender who can deal with different matchups. Haliburton is starting from a point of positivity on defense because his instincts in rotation and his understanding of when he can gamble for steals off-ball is superb. However, he can’t get taken advantage of at the level he currently would defensively by guards and wings who are able to back him down into the post, or by wings who can power through him by attacking his closeouts. Adding strength is going to be critical for him on defense, and in terms of how strong he is on the ball.

Of course, a big piece of the puzzle that can’t be ignored is that very few players have really stepped up in this draft and taken the bull by the horns in the way that Haliburton did. More than anything, that’s why he’s a possible top-10 pick, and why it will be tough for him to return to school given the money that awaits in the NBA. Even if there is some polarization in regard to whether he’s a top-five, or a top-10, or a lottery pick, or even a top-20 pick, Haliburton has a bright future.

 

[NBASupes]

For me, hawks BB

1. Hayes 

2. Haliburton 

3. Toppin

4t. Ball

4t. Edwards 

[NBASupes]

My new rankings, in general for FEB

1. Anthony Edwards 6 floor, 9 ceiling tier 2.5
2. LaMelo Ball 6 floor, 9 ceiling tier 2.5
3. Obi Toppin 7.5 floor, 8.5 ceiling tier 2.5
4. Killan Hayes 7.5 floor, 8 ceiling tier 3
5. Onyeka Okongwu 7 floor, 8.5 ceiling tier 3
6. Haliburton 7 floor, 7.5 ceiling tier 3
7. Deni A. 6.5 floor, 8 ceiling tier 3
8. Wiseman 5.5 floor, 9 ceiling tier 3
9. Okoro 6 floor, 8.5 ceiling tier 3
10. Cole Anthony 6 floor, 8.5 ceiling tier 3

This is not anywhere near as good as last year. Tier 3 is much smaller than last year but tier 3 has a lot of PGs with upside so it's a good PG class for me.

I would strongly take Edwards or Ball if I was a team who didn't already have a young core in place.

Both are currently 6s but both are a 7 offensively and 5 defensively. With training, good health, development and a system built around them, these types usually take awhile me move from 5 defensively, maybe a season or more but they tend to go up a full two points on offense and some. Offensive 9s and defensive 5s even as a rookie is really freaking good. Most lottery teams lack an offensive player above 8. So if anyone is worth moving up for, its these two.

I would be more conscious of taking Edwards. Ball should be fine, you gotta to build around him but it will be worth it as playmaking and skill is the most critical thing a PG in today's NBA needs.

[NBASupes]

Hawks Big Board 1-20: 

This all depends on the Hawks value system. To me, the biggest needs are backup PG, backup PF, and more wing depth, better shooting but they have to defend and I would like if they can defend 3s which is critical. I could look pass the shooting if they are PD plus decision making. If the Hawks value the backup PG spot, PG's should be at the top of the list. If the Hawks don't, feel like Teague is doing a good job and really only want one QB (Young), we should look to address that in the 2nd round with a 2 way deal. 

1. Hayes - This is obviously the pick if we value getting a PG to backup Trae. If we keep Jeff and rather invested in a PG for a two way deal, then we need to move to #3. Hayes is my BPA for us. 

2. Haliburton 

3. Toppin - Toppin is the pick if we are going best backup PF. The question is, why do this when backup PF is the strongest in FA by far and we are loaded with cap space. 

4t. Ball

4t. Edwards - Edwards is the BPA if we decide to avoid addressing backup PG due to Jeff and our value of it. Also avoid backup PF because of FA. 

6t. Deni - Deni and Okoro are the best fits and wings in the draft. The issue is, neither can shoot but both have potential to shoot a lot better than they do. Deni low end is a better Rodions Rurucs and his high end is Toni Kukoc.

6t. Okoro - Okoro has a lower floor for the NBA than Deni due to Deni being an exceptional passer for a point forward. Okoro is a solid passer and a great decision maker. Okoro low end is a less shooting Torrey Craig and his high end is Jimmy Butler. 

8. Cole Anthony

9t. Reggie Perry - Perry is tied for the 2nd best PF in the class with Okongwu but Okungwu best position is C long term. He is an interesting offensive prospect. 

9t. Onyeka Okongwu - I like his floor a lot. I am not sure about the fit with Atlanta but I do think he's a top 10 prospect in general. 

11. Tre Jones - I love Tre Jones and I think he's ready right now to be a backup PG in the NBA but his shooting is a massive swing skill. His floor is Lindsey Hunter with PG skills. His ceiling is Mookie Blaylock or Kyle Lowry. 

12. Jalen Smith

13. Jahmi'us Ramsey - Sleeper

14. Tyler Bey - Needs a lot more volume, give him a few years. 

15. Devin Vassell - Too small. He is position locked into the SG position. You really want size and width. He's the size of prospect Terrance Ferguson. He is a good prospect unlike Ferguson but not the athlete. 

16. Aaron Nesmith - Scoring and shooting monster but not a passer nor much of a defender. Clear 6th man option. 

17. Nico Mannion - 

18. James Wiseman - He really isn't on the board. I had him here because after 13, no one else really makes sense.  

19. R.J. Hampton - I compare him to Dante Exum. Not a fit at all. 

20. Theo Maledon

 

Players to look at for the 50's.

Isaiah Joe, Myles Powell, Killan Tillie, Markus Howard, Cassius Winston, Mamadi Diakite, Landers Nolley, Kamar Baldwin, and Arturs Zagars

[Spud2nique]

2 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Torrey Craig

This is beyond a man crush I wanna know how he stole ur heart no lies Supes!

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

This is beyond a man crush I wanna know how he stole ur heart no lies Supes!

Torrey Craig is really good role player if you have watched him play often. His defensive metrics are exceptional. He covers ground better than anyone in the NBA, including Cam. He's a generational defender who doesn't get the credit he deserves outside of Denver. 

https://theathletic.com/1598978/2020/02/11/how-a-front-foot-philosophy-has-turned-torrey-craig-into-an-indispensable-piece-for-the-nuggets/

https://stats.nba.com/players/speed-distance/?sort=AVG_SPEED_DEF&dir=1&Season=2019-20&SeasonType=Regular Season&CF=GP*G*40

Edited February 20, 2020 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

Torrey Craig is really good role player if you have watched him play often. His defensive metrics are exceptional. He covers ground better than anyone in the NBA, including Cam. He's a generational defender who doesn't get the credit he deserves outside of Denver. 

Generational Defender???????? C'mon man.

[NBASupes]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Generational Defender???????? C'mon man.

Torrey Craig is a defensive monster. The issue is, he's too defensive minded. He doesn't have any ball skills or any touch which Okoro does have. Craig is just a straight line driver with springs and he's a worse three point shooter than Bazemore as well as streaky. He just isn't reliable on that end but defensively... He's as good as I've seen defending big wings to smaller players. Finding guys who can defend big wings is extremely difficult. He does it as good as anyone. He doesn't play for stocks either. He's disciplined to a degree. 

I watch a ton of hoops, Craig is the real deal. Coach Pop brought him to the select team last year and felt he was great for the defensive assignments. 

[NBASupes]

Craig's ability to defend PnR's, switches, M2M, cover ground on D, and get over screens is as good as you will find. He's not a Tony Allen overall on defense but for what he does, he does it as good as anyone. 

[JayBirdHawk]

There's a difference between being a good defender and generational.

[NBASupes]

1 minute ago, JayBirdHawk said:

There's a difference between being a good defender and generational.

He's generational if you watched him. You would easily know. Defense isn't offense, some of the best guys don't get the acclaim. When they do, it's due to a defensive culture where you can't deny it. That's like telling me Trae isn't generational on offense. I know Trae is, I watch every game. 

Edited February 20, 2020 by NBASupes

[JayBirdHawk]

I'll repeat: good vs generational - two different things.

[NBASupes]

4 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I'll repeat: good vs generational - two different things.

You are wasting time arguing about semantics based on your viewpoint. If I think he is generational defensively, then that's my opinion. I am not asking you to agree and you do not have to. I've watched a ton of hoops years via LP, Synergy, etc. For me, when it comes to modern defense and impact for a perimeter defender, Craig is as good as they come. That's my opinion. You are free to disagree if you like. 

[JayBirdHawk]

Of course everything is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

But throwing out terms like 'generational' - you can keep it.