Hard pill thread

[macdaddy]

I know the trend of the day is to hate on take fouls but it's a smart play.   I honestly don't see how they are going to eliminate it.   Bogi, Gallo, and Lou use them because they are smart and know our transition defense absolutely sucks and they have fouls to spare.   And it's not just those guys who suck at transition D.   Pretty much the entire team sucks at it.  

I know y'all were just making jokes but I'm really interested how the NBA tries to eliminate this.   How can they give a bigger penalty for fouling someone with the ball in some situations but not others?

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I know the trend of the day is to hate on take fouls but it's a smart play.   I honestly don't see how they are going to eliminate it.   Bogi, Gallo, and Lou use them because they are smart and know our transition defense absolutely sucks and they have fouls to spare.   And it's not just those guys who suck at transition D.   Pretty much the entire team sucks at it.  

I know y'all were just making jokes but I'm really interested how the NBA tries to eliminate this.   How can they give a bigger penalty for fouling someone with the ball in some situations but not others?

Next season a take foul will be a technical foul and the team gets the ball back.

[macdaddy]

2 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Next season a take foul will be a technical foul and the team gets the ball back.

But how will they define take foul?   so next season you actually have to hard foul them to stop the break?

[JayBirdHawk]

Just now, macdaddy said:

But how will they define take foul? 

taking a foul to stop a fast break in transition I think is what it is.

[macdaddy]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

taking a foul to stop a fast break in transition I think is what it is.

I just don't see anyway this works.   So basically you can't get anywhere near a guy in transition for fear that you might foul him?  And at what point is it not still 'in transition'?  all the way to the rim?  

I get take fouls are boring but the 'solution' is going to screw up the game.   

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Next season a take foul will be a technical foul and the team gets the ball back.

It's  a stupid thought and the powers that be should cancel this proposition.   here's Why... (me serious now). 

The whole reasoning behind this idea to make a technical is that thought that the person with the ball had a higher potential to score.  OK... So why not expand that reasoning to anytime a big man has the ball in the paint and is going up for a shot and is fouled?  For instance, Embiid going up for a dunk and somebody fouls him and causes him to miss.  If we follow the rule out logically, Embiid should get 2 shots and the ball back... because undoubtedly, he had a very high potential to score had he not been fouled!

That's my counter argument.  Here's the point.  We have a break away foul.   That's enough.  If they can't call the clear path foul, they shouldn't make up a new rule to extend it's power because it also stands on shaky ground. 

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I just don't see anyway this works.   So basically you can't get anywhere near a guy in transition for fear that you might foul him?  And at what point is it not still 'in transition'?  all the way to the rim?  

I get take fouls are boring but the 'solution' is going to screw up the game.   

Actually it's a personal foul but 2 freethrows AND the ball.

Quote

Next up on the docket is "take" fouls: When defensive teams intentionally foul offensive players to thwart a transition opportunity. On Tuesday, Shams Charania of The Athletic reported that the NBA's competition committee has asked the league to put a stop to these fouls by eliminating the incentive to commit the

In other words, the committee is asking the league to punish what are clearly intentional fouls, perhaps -- though this isn't part of the report -- with two free throws and possession of the ball to the offended team. Whatever punishment they might come up with, count me on the side of the committee

 

[macdaddy]

5 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

what are clearly intentional fouls

To me this just takes it back to the defensive player making it not clearly intentional.   Which means harder fouls.   But if those still get called as take fouls then what we'll see is basically clear paths to the rim in transition because players will be scared to try to defend them without fouling.   This could be a really big deal because pretty much any rebounded miss could be 'in transition' if a team pushes it.   And why wouldn't they if the defense is restricted this way.  

[Diesel]

36 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

To me this just takes it back to the defensive player making it not clearly intentional.   Which means harder fouls.   But if those still get called as take fouls then what we'll see is basically clear paths to the rim in transition because players will be scared to try to defend them without fouling.   This could be a really big deal because pretty much any rebounded miss could be 'in transition' if a team pushes it.   And why wouldn't they if the defense is restricted this way.  

Bring back the Paul Westhead offense then.

 

[HawkItus]

But, we already have the clear path foul. Maybe expand it that if any player is beyond the last defensive player and a foul occurs then you have a penalty shot and the ball out of bounds. 4th qtr would be 2 shots

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, HawkItus said:

But, we already have the clear path foul. Maybe expand it that if any player is beyond the last defensive player and a foul occurs then you have a penalty shot and the ball out of bounds. 4th qtr would be 2 shots

clear path only works if no other player is ahead.  we're seeing alot more take fouls with players back and they are just common fouls

[HawkItus]

30 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

clear path only works if no other player is ahead.  we're seeing alot more take fouls with players back and they are just common fouls

That's why I said expand it

[HawkItus]

26 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

That's why I said expand it

Wee need another rebounder, preferably that could play at wing with Clint

[AHF]

16 hours ago, Diesel said:

Again, I think the hindsight is in play here. 

GS's first year....  They didn't have 3-4 known HOFers.   Maybe just 1. 

Cleveland's first year...   Irving was not a HOFer.   Maybe Kevin Love. 

Mavs had 2 but Kidd wasn't a contributor this late in his career...  I mean, if that's what you want to go by... when we win ours, we can say we had Trae and Lou. 

Kobe took a Laker team.. all by himself. 

But with us... if we win a championship then likely Hall of famers will start to form.  Could be one of the International players.. because they have an easier road. 

Here's my second point.   Do you guys really think about How Good Trae really is?  Much like Giannis, Trae is a Unicorn in Basketball.  You cannot name the last time you had a Player who does what he is able to do.. maybe Harden (2016).   It's going to be interesting to see how far we can go. 

 

Just for context:

When GS won their first ring, Steph was an All-Star, All-NBA and MVP; Green was first team All-Defense; and Klay was already an All-Star.  Obviously, Iggy was a former All-Star but more of an elite 6th man at that point.

When Cleveland won it, Love looked like was going to the HOF (don't think he will now) while Irving was a 3x All-Star and 1x All-NBA player.

Kidd was still a contributor (put up 6.4 WS that season which is almost as many as Trae last season) and they had major contributions from several other former or eventual All-Stars (Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and non-AS best season from JT).  Tyson Chandler was top 25 in win shares that year (ahead of Timmy, the fake KG, and Amare among many others) and on his way to All-NBA, All-NBA defense, and DPOY recognition in NY.

Kobe won his first ring while finishing 2nd (or worse) on his own team in WS, WS/48, TS%, and other categories behind then 2x All-Star Pau Gasol who had also notched his first of four eventual All-NBA selections.

Who on our team do you think is destined for AS, All-NBA, DPOY, etc. appearances?  I surely have hope for several of them that they could eventually get there but there isn't a single one that I would bet my car will end up being even an AS for a single season let alone All-NBA or HOF.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Just for context:

When GS won their first ring, Steph was an All-Star, All-NBA and MVP; Green was first team All-Defense; and Klay was already an All-Star.  Obviously, Iggy was a former All-Star but more of an elite 6th man at that point.

When Cleveland won it, Love looked like was going to the HOF (don't think he will now) while Irving was a 3x All-Star and 1x All-NBA player.

Kidd was still a contributor (put up 6.4 WS that season which is almost as many as Trae last season) and they had major contributions from several other former or eventual All-Stars (Tyson Chandler, Shawn Marion, and non-AS best season from JT).  Tyson Chandler was top 25 in win shares that year (ahead of Timmy, the fake KG, and Amare among many others) and on his way to All-NBA, All-NBA defense, and DPOY recognition in NY.

Kobe won his first ring while finishing 2nd (or worse) on his own team in WS, WS/48, TS%, and other categories behind then 2x All-Star Pau Gasol who had also notched his first of four eventual All-NBA selections.

Who on our team do you think is destined for AS, All-NBA, DPOY, etc. appearances?  I surely have hope for several of them that they could eventually get there but there isn't a single one that I would bet my car will end up being even an AS for a single season let alone All-NBA or HOF.

1.  Klay = Allstar...  Korver = Allstar.   Neither HOF at the time. 

2.   I said that Love was probably HOF from championship and his Minny days.

3.   Kidd (2011) = 8, 8, and 4 shooting 36% from the field. 

On our team... Clint, OO = All defensive.  JC may get an allstar nod after we win.  Hunter - ??

[AHF]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

1.  Klay = Allstar...  Korver = Allstar.   Neither HOF at the time. 

2.   I said that Love was probably HOF from championship and his Minny days.

3.   Kidd (2011) = 8, 8, and 4 shooting 36% from the field. 

On our team... Clint, OO = All defensive.  JC may get an allstar nod after we win.  Hunter - ??

Klay =/= Korver.  Not even close.  Leaving that alone.

We agree that Love was looking HOF worthy at the time they won their ring.  

Unlike these hypothetical awards for CC, OO, JC, DH, etc. Kyrie Irving was a 3x All-Star and All-NBA before or during that season and not after the fact as a boost for having won the previous year.  

You said Kidd wasn't a contributor.  He was 60th in the league in WS.  This season, guys like Luka Doncic, Tobias Harris and Khris Middleton are right around that spot in the rankings.  All of those guys are significant contributors to their team.  (We both agree Kidd wasn't close to his prime but there is a reason he was still starting in Dallas and led the team in minutes played.)

I'm not confident we'll see any of our guys get this recognition even though I'm certainly hopeful they can blossom and have a shot at it.

[Diesel]

44 minutes ago, AHF said:

 

You said Kidd wasn't a contributor.  He was 60th in the league in WS.  This season, guys like Luka Doncic, Tobias Harris and Khris Middleton are right around that spot in the rankings.  All of those guys are significant contributors to their team.  (We both agree Kidd wasn't close to his prime but there is a reason he was still starting in Dallas and led the team in minutes played.)

 

Quick question.  If you were choosing a team, would you want 2011 Jason Kidd who was  8,8, and 4 shooting 36% from the field or would you want Luka?  In that year, Kidd had a 6.4 WS and Ryan Anderson had a 8.9 WS.  That stat doesn't translate into greatness. 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Quick question.  If you were choosing a team, would you want 2011 Jason Kidd who was  8,8, and 4 shooting 36% from the field or would you want Luka?  In that year, Kidd had a 6.4 WS and Ryan Anderson had a 8.9 WS.  That stat doesn't translate into greatness. 

 

 

You still trying to change the goal posts?  You said Kidd did not contribute to that team.

Quote

Kidd wasn't a contributor this late in his career

He led the team in minutes played and was a key contributor.

Ryan Anderson was also a key contributor to his team that year with a 19 PER, 17 & 9 per 36 and shooting 39.3% from range (on 8.6 attempts per 36) at a time when stretch forwards usually did not convert that efficiently or that frequently.  (On a roster with JJ Redick, Hedu Turkoglu, Jameer Nelson, Jason Richardson and Rashard Lewis none of them could match him in both volume and efficiency and his overall ws/48 was only behind Shaq on the team)

Neither guy was a star that year but both were contributors by any measure.

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, HawkItus said:

But, we already have the clear path foul. Maybe expand it that if any player is beyond the last defensive player and a foul occurs then you have a penalty shot and the ball out of bounds. 4th qtr would be 2 shots

Why?

So that we can make run outs the thing?

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, AHF said:

You still trying to change the goal posts?  You said Kidd did not contribute to that team.

He led the team in minutes played and was a key contributor.

Ryan Anderson was also a key contributor to his team that year with a 19 PER, 17 & 9 per 36 and shooting 39.3% from range (on 8.6 attempts per 36) at a time when stretch forwards usually did not convert that efficiently or that frequently.  (On a roster with JJ Redick, Hedu Turkoglu, Jameer Nelson, Jason Richardson and Rashard Lewis none of them could match him in both volume and efficiency and his overall ws/48 was only behind Shaq on the team)

Neither guy was a star that year but both were contributors by any measure.

I said in his old age, Kidd did not contribute much to that team...  Meaning that if the standard is HOF talent, then you expect HOF production.  Right.  I even followed by saying that when we win, we can talk about Lou Williams being our HOF talent or one of the Euros. 

The big point...in hindsight, it's easy to apply that "standard".  In real time though, most teams don't fit the "standard" when they are trying for their first championship. 

In 2030, it could just as easily be Trae and OO were the two HOF players that led the Hawks to a title in 2022.   In real time.. the "Standard" don't fit.