Hard pill thread

[JeffS17]

54 minutes ago, Diesel said:

It's not just what the fans see, it's what the GM has said. Travis Schlenk has called JC "The heart and soul" of our team.  But that doesn't matter.  I would be happy if Lou and Gallo were the voices in the lockerroom.  Our young players need to hear from older guys about how long this window stays open and how you don't get many chances.  I guarantee you that hearing from CP3 is what has Phoenix playing above their individual abilities. 

Moreover, I don't doubt that JC is on the blocks.  Travis came out and said (a while ago) that the only person who was untouchable was Trae.  Teams see what JC brings and probably want him.  I mean, 17/9.. with a high 3 pt% and a strong finisher at the rim.  Other teams are licking their lips at the prospect of Getting JC for cheap and making him an allstar.  Hawks fans don't appreciate what JC brings.  You don't get stretch 4s with his motor everyday.  The fact that he has to beg for plays to be run his way is a crime. 

 

 

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

Just saying.....from Schlenk's June 2021 interview:

Hawks general manager Travis Schlenk called Collins “the heart and soul of the team” on “The Jim Rome Show” last week. While Trae Young is viewed as the team’s best player, Collins is the emotional leader inside the locker room for Atlanta. He’s the one in the middle of the huddle prior to the game, breaking it down, the guy who’s unafraid to speak his mind, both good and bad.

Collins is known throughout the Hawks organization as this vibrant, happy person to be around. He’s the player the franchise goes to when it needs a representative at a community event or someone to shake the hand of some important figure.

I know Travis has also said this, just giving my perspective.   It's not like Travis is going to release information that lowers the trade value of a guy he's been shopping for 3 years -- if anything, GMs routinely do the opposite. 

[JayBirdHawk]

3 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

 

I know Travis has also said this, just giving my perspective.   It's not like Travis is going to release information that lowers the trade value of a guy he's been shopping for 3 years -- if anything, GMs routinely do the opposite. 

just disputing the notion that it's a 'fans only' thought. 

[Final_quest]

My hard pill to swallow I've already beat to death.  A champion has two HOF players and we only have one. 

Although, it could be a trend that is cracking a little bit.  Toronto and Milwaukee have shown maybe one HOF player and two all star level players is enough.  Hard to say, but we don't even have an all star to pair with Trae so we're still below the line. 

I don't know if there is much else to say on this topic, but I do think the pill is too hard for a lot of people to swallow.  

[Final_quest]

33 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

 

I know Travis has also said this, just giving my perspective.   It's not like Travis is going to release information that lowers the trade value of a guy he's been shopping for 3 years -- if anything, GMs routinely do the opposite. 

Completely agree.  Another trend I've picked up on among posters involves using meaningless GM talk to affirm a narrative they believe.  In this case Collins is our heart and soul could mean exactly that or it could be TS overselling on Collins value.  

[swanlee]

The truth is this is a very young team that got sidelined during the year when 2/3rds of the roster was out on COVID protocol and for weeks we ran our team with mostly guys off the street with 10 day contracts.

Long term we just need to learn and get experience as a team and keep focusing on defense. The key though is this is a TEAM and not just a collection of guys and I REALLY think we need to let them settle and learn together instead of jumping the gun trying to blow it all up if we don't win every game.

I'd like to give this core roster and coaching staff 2-3 years to gel and get things together where we are an every year playoff team that makes noise in the post season.

Edited February 8, 2022 by swanlee

[Atlantaholic]

Let's see how the team responds to night. I'm not swallowing any hard pills until the season is over. 

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, JeffS17 said:

 

I know Travis has also said this, just giving my perspective.   It's not like Travis is going to release information that lowers the trade value of a guy he's been shopping for 3 years -- if anything, GMs routinely do the opposite. 

You don't remember Travis saying that he may have made a mistake with this team?

Quote

It’s a hard pill to swallow when your team’s not playing as well as you think it should. Maybe I need to lower my expectations for this team. Ultimately, all of this falls on my shoulders. I put this group together, and they’re not responding. So, we need to take a deep look into this for sure.”

“We’re seeing the same thing every game. Again, last night we had the lead going into the fourth quarter. Then we can’t keep it. I sound like a broken record here, but it’s the same thing every game. Again, ultimately this all falls on me. So, we have to see if this group is the group that we saw last year during the second half of the season or if it’s the group we’re seeing this year. And that’s what we have to determine and we have to make adjustments.”

If this doesn't submarine the value of every guy on the team, I don't know what does?  Why do you think we're mentioned in every crazy trade?  I think Travis is a straight shooter and doesn't play GM games.   Not even with the media.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, Final_quest said:

My hard pill to swallow I've already beat to death.  A champion has two HOF players and we only have one. 

Although, it could be a trend that is cracking a little bit.  Toronto and Milwaukee have shown maybe one HOF player and two all star level players is enough.  Hard to say, but we don't even have an all star to pair with Trae so we're still below the line. 

I don't know if there is much else to say on this topic, but I do think the pill is too hard for a lot of people to swallow.  

When does a champion have two HOF players???  Surely not all before they win a championship. 

I've shown you over and over again that your two HOF players requirement is not the case for most teams at the time that they win their first championship.  However, you keep spewing that BS like it's facts??

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

When does a champion have two HOF players???  Surely not all before they win a championship. 

I've shown you over and over again that your two HOF players requirement is not the case for most teams at the time that they win their first championship.  However, you keep spewing that BS like it's facts??

 

Nobody is HOF before they finish their career but you usually need 2+ players at that level and guys like Horace Grant don't typically become HOFers because they won rings.  So the question if you think we will win a championship with our current roster is who you think will make the leap to reaching that level to go with Trae.  Kobe may not have had the credentials to make the HOF when he won his first ring (two-time AS and one-time All-NBA) but he definitely got there.  

Interestingly, it has been the last few years when you've seen some teams not meet that standard.  Milwaukee has only Giannis as a HOFer (paired with two ASs who won't make the HOF).  Toronto was borderline with Kawhi as a no-brainer and Lowry as a 6x AS who will be the borderline case.  

Other than that, it is pretty easy to see.  GS probably has 3-4 HOFers depending on the year.  Cleveland had 2.  Spurs had 3-5 (Parker and Manu are borderline - I don't think they are worthy but being foreign born makes them very likely to get in; Robinson, Kawhi and Timmy are no-brainers).  Heat had 3 guys who appeared HOF bound (Bosh's injury puts him borderline).  Mavs had 2 in Dirk and Kidd.  Celtics had 3.  Lakers had 2 (Kobe/Gasol and Shaq/Kobe).  Heat had two in Shaq and Wade but Wade wasn't clear at the time just due to how young he was.  

Anyway, I don't see us having a Wade, Kobe, etc. type on the roster.  Heck, I'm not even sure anyone currently on the roster other than Trae will ever be an All-Star.

 

[Final_quest]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

Nobody is HOF before they finish their career but you usually need 2+ players at that level and guys like Horace Grant don't typically become HOFers because they won rings.  So the question if you think we will win a championship with our current roster is who you think will make the leap to reaching that level to go with Trae.  Kobe may not have had the credentials to make the HOF when he won his first ring (two-time AS and one-time All-NBA) but he definitely got there.  

Interestingly, it has been the last few years when you've seen some teams not meet that standard.  Milwaukee has only Giannis as a HOFer (paired with two ASs who won't make the HOF).  Toronto was borderline with Kawhi as a no-brainer and Lowry as a 6x AS who will be the borderline case.  

Other than that, it is pretty easy to see.  GS probably has 3-4 HOFers depending on the year.  Cleveland had 2.  Spurs had 3-5 (Parker and Manu are borderline - I don't think they are worthy but being foreign born makes them very likely to get in; Robinson, Kawhi and Timmy are no-brainers).  Heat had 3 guys who appeared HOF bound (Bosh's injury puts him borderline).  Mavs had 2 in Dirk and Kidd.  Celtics had 3.  Lakers had 2 (Kobe/Gasol and Shaq/Kobe).  Heat had two in Shaq and Wade but Wade wasn't clear at the time just due to how young he was.  

Anyway, I don't see us having a Wade, Kobe, etc. type on the roster.  Heck, I'm not even sure anyone currently on the roster other than Trae will ever be an All-Star.

 

Not going through this again.  

[HawkItus]

I think now you two All-NBA type talents. Right now we have one. Last year CC played at an All- Defense clip, which is why we were so successful.

[Atlantaholic]

43 minutes ago, HawkItus said:

I think now you two All-NBA type talents. Right now we have one. Last year CC played at an All- Defense clip, which is why we were so successful.

And Bogi played like an All Star for the stretch run as well... on the other hand Trae is having a much better season, and Okonguw as well has shown flashes of being dominant on defense. Bogi hasn't been quite as good as he was but he has been very, very solid since coming back. 

[AHF]

33 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Bogi hasn't been quite as good as he was but he has been very, very solid since coming back. 

It is a testament to how hot he was last year that he hasn't even been close to that level since returning - not close in terms of counting numbers and not close in terms of shooting %s.

[Atlantaholic]

33 minutes ago, AHF said:

It is a testament to how hot he was last year that he hasn't even been close to that level since returning - not close in terms of counting numbers and not close in terms of shooting %s.

Yea, we were all a bit foolish to think he could play so far above his averages for a whole season. However I think we may still get a blazing hot stretch from him at some point... maybe the playoffs this time?

[shakes]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

It is a testament to how hot he was last year that he hasn't even been close to that level since returning - not close in terms of counting numbers and not close in terms of shooting %s.

Bogi's shooting may be down, but he still leads the entire NBA in "take" fouls!

 

The guy is a master at the take foul.   Need a 2 on 4 broken up cause you just don't feel like playing defense?  Call BOGI!  Need a 2 on 2 broken up in the backcourt cause you just ate and don't feel like running back on defense?  Call BOGI!

[Atlantaholic]

4 hours ago, shakes said:

Bogi's shooting may be down, but he still leads the entire NBA in "take" fouls!

 

The guy is a master at the take foul.   Need a 2 on 4 broken up cause you just don't feel like playing defense?  Call BOGI!  Need a 2 on 2 broken up in the backcourt cause you just ate and don't feel like running back on defense?  Call BOGI!

Trae and Gallo up there too lol. Not fair to single him out when everyone on the team seems to do it. 

[RedDawg#8]

5 minutes ago, Atlantaholic said:

Trae and Gallo up there too lol. Not fair to single him out when everyone on the team seems to do it. 

Gallo, Bogi and Lou.

Trae is not as bad as these 3 lol

[Atlantaholic]

1 minute ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Gallo, Bogi and Lou.

Trae is not as bad as these 3 lol

Trae and Huerter also partake, but yea maybe not on the level as the above three.

[Diesel]

On 2/8/2022 at 5:52 PM, AHF said:

Nobody is HOF before they finish their career but you usually need 2+ players at that level and guys like Horace Grant don't typically become HOFers because they won rings.  So the question if you think we will win a championship with our current roster is who you think will make the leap to reaching that level to go with Trae.  Kobe may not have had the credentials to make the HOF when he won his first ring (two-time AS and one-time All-NBA) but he definitely got there.  

Interestingly, it has been the last few years when you've seen some teams not meet that standard.  Milwaukee has only Giannis as a HOFer (paired with two ASs who won't make the HOF).  Toronto was borderline with Kawhi as a no-brainer and Lowry as a 6x AS who will be the borderline case.  

Other than that, it is pretty easy to see.  GS probably has 3-4 HOFers depending on the year.  Cleveland had 2.  Spurs had 3-5 (Parker and Manu are borderline - I don't think they are worthy but being foreign born makes them very likely to get in; Robinson, Kawhi and Timmy are no-brainers).  Heat had 3 guys who appeared HOF bound (Bosh's injury puts him borderline).  Mavs had 2 in Dirk and Kidd.  Celtics had 3.  Lakers had 2 (Kobe/Gasol and Shaq/Kobe).  Heat had two in Shaq and Wade but Wade wasn't clear at the time just due to how young he was.  

Anyway, I don't see us having a Wade, Kobe, etc. type on the roster.  Heck, I'm not even sure anyone currently on the roster other than Trae will ever be an All-Star.

 

Again, I think the hindsight is in play here. 

GS's first year....  They didn't have 3-4 known HOFers.   Maybe just 1. 

Cleveland's first year...   Irving was not a HOFer.   Maybe Kevin Love. 

Mavs had 2 but Kidd wasn't a contributor this late in his career...  I mean, if that's what you want to go by... when we win ours, we can say we had Trae and Lou. 

Kobe took a Laker team.. all by himself. 

But with us... if we win a championship then likely Hall of famers will start to form.  Could be one of the International players.. because they have an easier road. 

Here's my second point.   Do you guys really think about How Good Trae really is?  Much like Giannis, Trae is a Unicorn in Basketball.  You cannot name the last time you had a Player who does what he is able to do.. maybe Harden (2016).   It's going to be interesting to see how far we can go. 

 

[shakes]

11 hours ago, Atlantaholic said:

Trae and Gallo up there too lol. Not fair to single him out when everyone on the team seems to do it. 

My scientific method tells me that Bogi has more take fouls than all those other players combined.   He’s the Wayne Gretzky of take fouls.    He should wear a sign that says “its been XXX amount of days since i ran back on defense”