John Collins trade watch

[Wretch]

4 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Yes, I quoted Reddawg and was addressing his post when I said that. It's a multiple person response but they should be shown in order of quote and response. Is that not how it appears on your screen?

But that's not what I'm saying. It's not about "saving money." It's about spending money where it matters the most, and more importantly not wasting money where it's not serving you best. You don't pay extra to put a 3000lb winch on a Ferrari because you are never taking it off-road. It would be a waste of money when you could spend that money on better tires that hug the road. We can't afford to be spending money for luxury items anymore, not if there is a better fit out there. These franchises aren't playing with unlimited monopoly money. 

I don't want him to be more of a focal point, not at all. What people are saying is on a team with Trae, if you can't put a center next to JC that is a stretch 5 on offense that also doesn't care about paint touches and is also a great rim protecting strong interior defender, then it is impossible to ever take full advantage of his strengths. That's 

Well I'm not sure now... I'm driving on the highway and posting...and putting people's lives at risk lol and I should probably stop 

 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Wretch said:

Well I'm not sure now... I'm driving on the highway and posting...and putting people's lives at risk lol and I should probably stop 

 

...and if you respond, I'll know you didn't stop.

[macdaddy]

15 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

Yes, I quoted Reddawg and was addressing his post when I said that. It's a multiple person response but they should be shown in order of quote and response. Is that not how it appears on your screen?

But that's not what I'm saying. It's not about "saving money." It's about spending money where it matters the most, and more importantly not wasting money where it's not serving you best. You don't pay extra to put a 3000lb winch on a Ferrari because you are never taking it off-road. It would be a waste of money when you could spend that money on better tires that hug the road. We can't afford to be spending money for luxury items anymore, not if there is a better fit out there. These franchises aren't playing with unlimited monopoly money. 

I don't want him to be more of a focal point, not at all. What people are saying is on a team with Trae, if you can't put a center next to JC that is a stretch 5 on offense that also doesn't care about paint touches and is also a great rim protecting strong interior defender, then it is impossible to ever take full advantage of his strengths. That's it. 

On the saving money, and i know we're just arguing semantics here, but we traded a bench 3&D for a bench 3&D who is cheaper and on an expiring.  We didn't off load a luxury item.   I have no issue with doing it but I think it's going out on a limb to say the trade made us better on the court.  

I just disagree that a stretch 5 is going to be any better of a fit next to JC than Capela.  Unless we find the magical stretch 5 who is also a great rim protector.  JC is a great PNR guy i get that.  But he's also a great stretch 4.  Anyway i think we just disagree.  I think JC and Capela fit just fine.  

[RandomFan]

8 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

...and if you respond, I'll know you didn't stop.

Bird is just trying to get the last word in on you bro, don't fall for it!

 

[RandomFan]

17 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

 I just disagree that a stretch 5 is going to be any better of a fit next to JC than Capela.  Unless we find the magical stretch 5 who is also a great rim protector. 

FINALLY! 

Quote

JC is a great PNR guy i get that.  But he's also a great stretch 4.  Anyway i think we just disagree.  I think JC and Capela fit just fine.  

Yes, he's a great stretch 4. But he's also not a strong defender, which is extremely important for the stretch 4 that we need to synergize with a roster around Trae and a normal center, well pretty much any center. Being only an average defender is really, really, really a big deal. 

And yeah we can agree to disagree. But if they fit fine then I think we both can acknowledge we wouldn't have been hearing about problems of the roster fit for over 2 years now, and also the smoke regarding both the Hawks and JC looking for a better fit. Just sayin'. 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by RandomFan

[AHF]

55 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

well maybe not but a lot of people keep saying we are 'using him incorrectly', 'not taking advantage of his strengths', 'needs more touches', 'he's sacrificing his game for the team'.   Sounds like they want him to be more of a focal point right?

He is a better roll man than Capala, imo, so I'd like to see him doing more of that but the reality is that Capela can't do anything but that so it creates a conflict on the floor.  Even with maximizing Capela in the PnR and not maximizing JC and even with JC's scoring taking a hit with  his hand, JC was still the more efficient scorer last year and the prior year.  Again, it is not about JC so much as about Capela because he can only do one thing and there isn't space on the floor for two people doing it.

So it makes perfect sense to note that (a) the Hawks aren't using their best roll man; (b) JC isn't tapping into his best scoring method to allow CC to fill that role; and (c) JC is sacrificing his numbers by lowering his overall usage and contributing in ways that are needed for the team but not best for his individual statistics.  That doesn't mean people are necessarily advocating for him to be a focal point for the team. 

For me personally, I'd say that I recognize those things but don't see any big way to get him running more PnR while he is on the floor with CC or OO (unless OO returns with a jumper) so I'm not advocating to shift him back to the roll man role that he did so successfully with Trae.

[macdaddy]

18 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

And yeah we can agree to disagree. But if they fit fine then I think we both can acknowledge we wouldn't have been hearing about problems of the roster fit for over 2 years now, and also the smoke regarding both the Hawks and JC looking for a better fit. Just sayin'. 

 

Yeah we haven't been hearing about problems of fit for 2 years.   We've been hearing about him being on the block since he started getting paid.  The stats sure don't show any fit issues unless folks are just mad that Capela is eating up the offensive rebounds.   

Only reasons Hawks are looking to move him is he may not want to be here and they don't like the money.   If they had him on a cheaper deal you wouldn't be hearing a peep about fit.  

 

[macdaddy]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

He is a better roll man than Capala, imo, so I'd like to see him doing more of that but the reality is that Capela can't do anything but that so it creates a conflict on the floor.  Even with maximizing Capela in the PnR and not maximizing JC and even with JC's scoring taking a hit with  his hand, JC was still the more efficient scorer last year and the prior year.  Again, it is not about JC so much as about Capela because he can only do one thing and there isn't space on the floor for two people doing it.

So it makes perfect sense to note that (a) the Hawks aren't using their best roll man; (b) JC isn't tapping into his best scoring method to allow CC to fill that role; and (c) JC is sacrificing his numbers by lowering his overall usage and contributing in ways that are needed for the team but not best for his individual statistics.  That doesn't mean people are necessarily advocating for him to be a focal point for the team. 

For me personally, I'd say that I recognize those things but don't see any big way to get him running more PnR while he is on the floor with CC or OO (unless OO returns with a jumper) so I'm not advocating to shift him back to the roll man role that he did so successfully with Trae.

I mean it's not that i'm not hearing and understanding this argument, it's that it's just backward to me. 

 The dude is a 40% 3 point shooter and deadly in the mid range also and we want to find a stretch 5 so he can go back to PNR full time?   That doesn't make any sense.  This mythical stretch 5 that shoots better than JC from the field and is also a lockdown defender in the paint doesn't exist.   

 

If anything we are misusing him by not getting him more open looks on the perimeter.    But I contend that we are utilizing him very well.  

[RandomFan]

10 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Yeah we haven't been hearing about problems of fit for 2 years.   We've been hearing about him being on the block since he started getting paid.  The stats sure don't show any fit issues unless folks are just mad that Capela is eating up the offensive rebounds.   

Only reasons Hawks are looking to move him is he may not want to be here and they don't like the money.   If they had him on a cheaper deal you wouldn't be hearing a peep about fit.  

 

 

1 minute ago, macdaddy said:

I mean it's not that i'm not hearing and understanding this argument, it's that it's just backward to me. 

 The dude is a 40% 3 point shooter and deadly in the mid range also and we want to find a stretch 5 so he can go back to PNR full time?   That doesn't make any sense.  This mythical stretch 5 that shoots better than JC from the field and is also a lockdown defender in the paint doesn't exist.   

 

If anything we are misusing him by not getting him more open looks on the perimeter.    But I contend that we are utilizing him very well.  

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, RandomFan said:

 

LOL.   I guess it would be simpler to ask what stretch 5 you want to bring in to play with JC......

[AHF]

5 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I mean it's not that i'm not hearing and understanding this argument, it's that it's just backward to me. 

 The dude is a 40% 3 point shooter and deadly in the mid range also and we want to find a stretch 5 so he can go back to PNR full time?   That doesn't make any sense.  This mythical stretch 5 that shoots better than JC from the field and is also a lockdown defender in the paint doesn't exist.   

 

If anything we are misusing him by not getting him more open looks on the perimeter.    But I contend that we are utilizing him very well.  

I'm not following your post now.  You just responded to a post that contained none of what you are now posting.  But I'll try to respond anyway to clarify at least my own view:

Am I interested in moving Capela just to free up space for JC to go to the basket?  No.  Capela needs a stretch 4 and JC can do a solid job at that.  JC can also be a roll man when on the floor with another big who has a jump shot but the only one of those we have is JJ as of now so I'm not expecting a lot of that.

Am I interested in moving Capela for another center?  Only if they are an upgrade.  Embiid would be an ideal fit with JC since he is a better defender than Capela and would allow JC and him to switch back and forth between floor spacing and running the PnR with Trae.  Embiid isn't walking through that door.  Maybe Ayton could fill a similar role eventually but clearly he is not as good from the perimeter as JC today (and so I see the upside of that move more about how much better Ayton would be as the roll man than CC and the ability to do a limited amount of switching roles between JC and Ayton and the cost of that move being the downgrade in defense).

As far as how we are using JC, I would just offer these points:

• JC remains elite level efficient on offense so getting him more looks that return a similar efficiency would definitely be good for the team.  So if we can up his usage rate, it makes sense to funnel more shots to him because others can't match his scoring efficiency.  There is a cap on how much you can do this because JC is limited in how he can produce offense but I'm not sure we are maximizing this right now.  (Sounds like you aren't sure about that either since you note that could get him more open looks on the perimeter than we have been doing.)
• From a team success perspective, I said above that in general we are correctly using CC and JC right now so I think we agree on that.
• From the perspective of what would maximize JC's individual numbers, we of course are not using him correctly at all.  But that isn't the end goal.  Team success is the end goal.  Thus, his sacrifice of his personal numbers for the betterment of the team.  And his willingness to do this even in his contract year speaks volumes to me about him being a good teammate.

[RedDawg#8]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

well maybe not but a lot of people keep saying we are 'using him incorrectly', 'not taking advantage of his strengths', 'needs more touches', 'he's sacrificing his game for the team'.   Sounds like they want him to be more of a focal point right?

If it ain't broke don't fix it. I personally was defending JC against those who were justifying their desire to trade him by saying he didn't fit with Clint, as if that was his fault. 

Everything should be about a fit with Trae, and Trae has always thrived in the PNR. He also has always had a big man that could shoot 3's. JC checks those boxes. 

I do think that in the absence of Gallo, the Atlanta Hawks need a post scoring presence if we want to be successful in the playoffs. And unless we add someone else from the outside we have to consider internally looking at JC or Dre to fill that void. I have less faith in JC than I do in Dre to do this, but that would be the only reason I would consider increasing his role. Not to make his stats look better, but to fill a need in our lineup as currently constructed.

JC does not need to be a focal point for us.

Trae, Murray, Dre, then JC. That should be the order of who gets looks. Bogi can be option A off the bench. OO and CC will eat by finishing plays for us at the rim.

 

[macdaddy]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not following your post now.  You just responded to a post that contained none of what you are now posting.  But I'll try to respond anyway to clarify at least my own view:

Am I interested in moving Capela just to free up space for JC to go to the basket?  No.  Capela needs a stretch 4 and JC can do a solid job at that.  JC can also be a roll man when on the floor with another big who has a jump shot but the only one of those we have is JJ as of now so I'm not expecting a lot of that.

Am I interested in moving Capela for another center?  Only if they are an upgrade.  Embiid would be an ideal fit with JC since he is a better defender than Capela and would allow JC and him to switch back and forth between floor spacing and running the PnR with Trae.  Embiid isn't walking through that door.  Maybe Ayton could fill a similar role eventually but clearly he is not as good from the perimeter as JC today (and so I see the upside of that move more about how much better Ayton would be as the roll man than CC and the ability to do a limited amount of switching roles between JC and Ayton and the cost of that move being the downgrade in defense).

As far as how we are using JC, I would just offer these points:

• JC remains elite level efficient on offense so getting him more looks that return a similar efficiency would definitely be good for the team.  So if we can up his usage rate, it makes sense to funnel more shots to him because others can't match his scoring efficiency.  There is a cap on how much you can do this because JC is limited in how he can produce offense but I'm not sure we are maximizing this right now.  (Sounds like you aren't sure about that either since you note that could get him more open looks on the perimeter than we have been doing.)
• From a team success perspective, I said above that in general we are correctly using CC and JC right now so I think we agree on that.
• From the perspective of what would maximize JC's individual numbers, we of course are not using him correctly at all.  But that isn't the end goal.  Team success is the end goal.  Thus, his sacrifice of his personal numbers for the betterment of the team.  And his willingness to do this even in his contract year speaks volumes to me about him being a good teammate.

Yeah sounds like we basically agree.   The whole discussion stemmed from the idea that CC and JC don't fit well and we aren't utilitzing them correctly.  which i disagree with for the reasons i stated.

And i guess the second part is that we'd be better with a stretch 5 next to JC than we are with CC/JC and I just don't buy that.   I didn't think that was that controversial a take. 

[RandomFan]

30 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

LOL.   I guess it would be simpler to ask what stretch 5 you want to bring in to play with JC......

I don't.

I don't see how this is difficult. I'd personally rather JC be someone else's problem trying to force the roster fit. 

In a perfect world I'd subtract both Capela and JC and trade for Ayton or Simmons, move Okongwu with a jumpshot into the starting lineup at 4 or 5 depending on Ayton or Simmons, and trade for a solid quality backup 5 and hopefully a fringe quality backup 4 in case JJ isn't ready for the backup 4 yet. OO needs to be in the starting lineup, like yesterday. 

The next best scenario would be still trading both, inserting OO at starting center, and getting a great defensive stretch 4 alongside him, along with other backup 4/5s and/or draft picks. I have no idea who the potential stretch 4 is but I would have loved to swap JC for Aaron Gordon last year, soooo. Something like that. 

The next best thing would be trade JC, keep Capela if you can't trade for Ayton, insert OO at 4, but you trade for a high quality big backup that's hopefully a center, and if you can add a decent backup 4 too, or draft assets for JC then that would be great. 

The next best scenario is nobody offering a good enough trade package for JC and we simply keep him and continue to force the square peg into the round hole for one more season and make the best of it that we can. It sounds like I'm crapping all over this scenario, but in truth I'm really not. I know it's the most realistic outcome of our offseason. If we have to do this then really, it's fine. It's not ideal, but I'm talking about comparing it to better scenarios so obviously I can't talk about it being as optimal as those three situations above it. But I'm really not that opposed to doing this. That doesn't mean I can't point out the issues with the current status quo. 

The next scenario would be just taking a half-decent package of backups and/or picks in order to get JC off the roster and/or salary dump him. This is the scenario that none of us want, especially me. I want us to make better use of our assets, so obviously I don't want to be getting shirked on the trade return for any of them. I highly doubt this would ever happen, but...stranger things have happened. 

Yes, I know full well the potential offensive limitations of some of those proposed moves. No need to go into them further. I feel very strongly the rosters constructed as I have would be better teams overall. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by RandomFan

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

move Okongwu with a jumpshot into the starting lineup at 4 or 5

 

LOL....I really hope he comes back with one.

 

[Peoriabird]

11 minutes ago, RandomFan said:

I don't.

I don't see how this is difficult. I'd personally rather JC be someone else's problem trying to force the roster fit. 

In a perfect world I'd subtract both Capela and JC and trade for Ayton or Simmons, move Okongwu with a jumpshot into the starting lineup at 4 or 5 depending on Ayton or Simmons, and trade for a solid quality backup 5 and hopefully a fringe quality backup 4 in case JJ isn't ready for the backup 4 yet. OO needs to be in the starting lineup, like yesterday. 

The next best scenario would be still trading both, inserting OO at starting center, and getting a great defensive stretch 4 alongside him, along with other backup 4/5s and/or draft picks. I have no idea who the potential stretch 4 is but I would have loved to swap JC for Aaron Gordon last year, soooo. Something like that. 

The next best thing would be trade JC, keep Capela if you can't trade for Ayton, insert OO at 4, but you trade for a high quality big backup that's hopefully a center, and if you can add a decent backup 4 too, or draft assets for JC then that would be great. 

The next best scenario is nobody offering a good enough trade package for JC and we simply keep him and continue to force the square peg into the round hole for one more season and make the best of it that we can. It sounds like I'm crapping all over this scenario, but in truth I'm really not. I know it's the most realistic outcome of our offseason. If we have to do this then really, it's fine. It's not ideal, but I'm talking about comparing it to better scenarios so obviously I can't talk about it being as optimal as those three situations above it. But I'm really not that opposed to doing this. That doesn't mean I can't point out the issues with the current status quo. 

The next scenario would be just taking a half-decent package of backups and/or picks in order to get JC off the roster and/or salary dump him. This is the scenario that none of us want, especially me. I want us to make better use of our assets, so obviously I don't want to be getting shirked on the trade return for any of them. I highly doubt this would ever happen, but...stranger things have happened. 

Yes, I know full well the potential offensive limitations of some of those proposed moves. No need to go into them further. I feel very strongly the rosters constructed as I have would be better teams overall. 

This is total nonsense

[macdaddy]

Some one say Okongwu with a jump shot??

 

 

[RandomFan]

11 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

LOL....I really hope he comes back with one.

 

As do I. But for arguments sake, I'd be willing to wager even without a jumpshot putting OO at the 4 would be a better team than what we rolled out there last year. We would clearly drop off on offense, but defensively we would more than make up the difference, especially with Murray now on the roster. 

6 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

Some one say Okongwu with a jump shot??

 

 

Haha, good joke. JC not being an exceptional defender like OO is one of his main drawbacks. If JC was as good on defense as OO he would have gotten the max contract he wanted last season. 

Edited July 7, 2022 by RandomFan

[Gray Mule]

Don't sell Agent 0017 short.  He's told us that he's coming back with a jump shot.  When has he had a healthy summer to work on anything?  Yep.  He ain't.  If he's doing the work, expect success.

 

Edited July 7, 2022 by Gray Mule

[Spud2nique]

OO is capable of becoming Superman ok! 
 

Has anyone else noticed that @Diesel has been on a tear with the GIF game?