Drew League 2022...Plus Other Summer ProAm Leagues & Smack Talk

[NBASupes]

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

This is very fair Supes.  Especially the part in bold and ESPECIALLY, ESPECIALLY the underlined.  I can't even argue that I might be underrating him.  I don't know what Schlenk saw in him and none of us know what's going on in the practices - so, yeah.  Maybe he can and will be that player.  I just haven't observed anything in his game (college or NBA) that suggests he has the offensive skillset that you and others believe he has. 

Goes without saying, but without that skillset, IMO he's a pretty good but replaceable player.  I would get excited about that from the gems we uncover in trades/late 1sts/FA'cy.  It's not enough to get me excited about a lottery pick.

(also, not saying I know it all...  I thought Adam Morrison was gonna rip the NBA a new one and I though Bogut was trash)

He plays 4 and 5. At those positions where defense is more valuable than offense unless you are elite at it, it matters and it's why he's not seen as replaceable and Atlanta picked him in the top 10. You mention guys like Rodman, Big Big Ben, and Gobert. Okongwu is far ahead of them offensively at the same stages especially in the draft. Deke was a top 2 pick in his draft class. Okongwu made a lot of sense to me as a top 10 pick. 

 

OO is far from uncoordinated and his hands are massive and pretty damn good. OO just doesn't have much offensive upside beside role player stuff. That said, he's pretty talented and that helps but defense is where he's special.

Edited August 11, 2022 by NBASupes

[Wretch]

17 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

This separates you and OO, he’s definitely not uncoordinated and if anything he’s got big hands reminiscent of a C Webber who cradles the ball like a baby and fans feel comfy when he has it.

I mean, yeah...that's why he makes millions of dollars to play basketball and I'm a data analyst...LOL!  When I say uncoordinated with the ball, I'm speaking directly to what a player (myself included) can do with the ball in his hands.  I can't shoot and I can't create offense for myself or others.  Correct me again if I'm wrong, but is it not a fair assessment to say that OO hasn't demonstrated this aspect in his game and that we're waiting to see if it develops?  That's literally been the story of this pick outside of the setbacks.

We digress though.  The point about being uncoordinated with the ball was more about the kind of players I gravitate towards, not so much what Okongwu can/will do.  He matches exactly the strengths in the players I like and *thus far* shares the same ~relative~ lack of <skill/control/finesse/whatever you want to call this> with the ball in his hands.  We will see if it improves.

8 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

A difference maker? I’m having a few issues with this, once OO is in, he makes a difference, if you mean a difference maker as far as volume that stand out via stats, then no, he hasn’t gotten enough burn on the floor for that.

 

3? Bit confused here? Who? Also, I disagree about burning a lotto pick on OO for a few reasons. First off, he was BPA where we picked outside of probably Haliburton, 1 and 1A, Schlenk decided to go the route of superstar TRAE, from day 1, everything after that is BPA with an eye 👁 on team fit.

The way OO controls the game from the center position is very tactful, he plays with his brain which 50% of players don’t and 70% of bigs specially don’t.

I’m gonna be stereotypical here, finding a smart big is tough, look at Al….

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO SPUD DON’T  YOU SHUT YOUR TRAP AND STOP GOIN DOWN THIS ROAD.. TURN BACK ASAP  

HO…R..

#3

pick in

200….7

 

 

Difference maker...  This doesn't need to be defined and isn't a knock against any player in the NBA.  There are players that are just different.  Trae represents that different kind of player.  Quantify it how you want.  That's what teams are looking for in the lottery.  It's not easy to spot (usually) and it isn't guaranteed to be there every year, but your best bet for finding that kind of player is in the lottery and when teams rebuild, tank, or trade to get into the lottery they are looking for a different kind of player.  IE...difference maker. 

I don't see that kind of difference maker in OO without him being able to put the ball on the floor and/or shoot it.  I also don't think you have to spend a lottery pick to find the kind of player he is without that additional skillset.  I've given examples of this.  Many examples.  Many times.

No two players are exactly the same, so I'm not saying that we have EXACTLY two or three players like Okongwu's on the roster.  I'm also not saying that either on the roster is better than or more valuable than or can replace Okongwu nor that any of them make him expendable or less valuable.  The point is that you can find (and we have indeed found) high quality big men, that aren't necessarily difference makers (as defined above), outside of the lottery - IE without using a lottery pick. 

It's fine to disagree and say that I am underrating him.  But please understand the basis for my observation and stop making me repeat it Spud! lol

[Wretch]

22 minutes ago, NBASupes said:

He plays 4 and 5. At those positions where defense is more valuable than offense unless you are elite at it, it matters and it's why he's not seen as replaceable and Atlanta picked him in the top 10. You mention guys like Rodman, Big Big Ben, and Gobert. Okongwu is far ahead of them offensively at the same stages especially in the draft. Deke was a top 2 pick in his draft class. Okongwu made a lot of sense to me as a top 10 pick. 

 

OO is far from uncoordinated and his hands are massive and pretty damn good. OO just doesn't have much offensive upside beside role player stuff. That said, he's pretty talented and that helps but defense is where he's special.

I agree wholeheartedly about the 4/5 in this day and age.  I agree that he's got more offensive upside than Rodman or Ben (tho Rodman could bang 3's early on).  I'm waiting to see if he's more than what Gobert is (he's absolutely not a better passer than Rudy). 

See above to @Spud2nique for 'uncoordinated' and let's not drag that out of context.

[JayBirdHawk]

10 minutes ago, Wretch said:

(he's absolutely not a better passer than Rudy). 

mmmmm???? are you sure about that

Last season in 66 games and 2120 minutes Gobert had 72 assists and 119 TOs. Per 36 1.2 apg

Last season in 48 games and 992 minutes OO had 53 assists and 44 TOs. Per 36 1.9 apg

 

[Spud2nique]

39 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Correct me again if I'm wrong, but is it not a fair assessment to say that OO hasn't demonstrated this aspect in his game and that we're waiting to see if it develops? 

He hasn’t but he hasn’t had the opportunity. But in his defense, and yours and the folks that have wanted to see OO do all this, we don’t know if Nate has given him the leash to display all his talents. Again, because of our ride to the ECF, some things weren’t developed but rather ridden to go vet and ride our our success, that’s why you saw Gallo a lot last year. We wanted to go for it. Had we not made that 2020 run, I think OO would have had a better chance to develop his skills last year with less lofty franchise goals… also, Nate is a barrier, at least has been so far in allowing OO to develop imo.

 

43 minutes ago, Wretch said:

The point about being uncoordinated with the ball was more about the kind of players I gravitate towards

See, I think you (wretch) might be a Brandon Clarke. Now you have to understand, that’s an awesome player, heck he was one of MY GUYS ( Cam, Culver, Clarke, Kabengele (ya I miss too lol)), but Clarke is the guy you are describing more so than OO. To the unfamiliar eye (who hasn’t watched 30+ years of like us) may see the same player, they aren’t. OO is soft with it, Clarke is rough with it.. 

47 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I also don't think you have to spend a lottery pick to find the kind of player he is without that additional skillset.  I've given examples of this.  Many examples.  Many times.

But who, specifically has been picked late and done really well? They are diamonds in the rough, Jamal Green in 2012 as the 35th pick? Who else? Millsap back in 06? Any other bigs that were all stars ️ picked late like that lately or specifically IN THE 2020 DRAFT?

 

50 minutes ago, Wretch said:

  The point is that you can find (and we have indeed found) high quality big men, that aren't necessarily difference makers (as defined above), outside of the lottery - IE without using a lottery pick. 

Gimme a couple recent examples.

 

50 minutes ago, Wretch said:

stop making me repeat it Spud! lol

No I’m gunna! (Until wifey tells me it’s dinner time)  

[Wretch]

38 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

mmmmm???? are you sure about that

Last season in 66 games and 2120 minutes Gobert had 72 assists and 119 TOs. Per 36 1.2 apg

Last season in 48 games and 992 minutes OO had 53 assists and 44 TOs. Per 36 1.9 apg

 

Pfft...what are stats Jaybird...lol  Pesky stankin' things. 

For one, I know you woulnd't count Gobert's TO's the same as true facilitator's TO's.  Secondly, this assumes that all of Gobert's turnovers are from failed passes - which we know they are not.  So, it's not really a true indicator of his ability to pass the ball. 

More importantly, again, I watch how guys play.  I'm talking about how Gobert passes out of the post.  He's not a pivot facilitator (ex-Jokic) by any stretch of the imagination, but I've observed him making some pretty good reads and throwing some nice dimes. I think in the right system with the right players, you could run some really good plays through him.

I wish someone would compile a montage of his passing, but unfortunately I don't think there is one.  I just picked up on it while perusing through his highlights.  There's a curious amount of this kind of thing in his highlights:

Ever so often, there's these plays popping up where he does nice stuff with the ball.  It looks very natural for him. This guy highlights Gobert's passing briefly in his video:

I'm kinda eager to see how it works with KAT.

[Wretch]

21 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Gimme a couple recent examples.

Hawks frontcourt players that I've watched, that were pretty good in their prime, that could challenge for a frontcourt start on this team, and were not selected with a lottery pick:

John Collins - #17
Clint Capela - #25
Josh Smith - #17
Al Harrington - #25
Grant Long - #33
Boris Diaw - #21
Paul Millsap - #47

??...Jalen Johnson?-#20...*curious expression* Maybe...? Just throwing him out there.

Right now, OO rates better in some areas than these guys, worse in others.  None besides Capela can play center (maybe Diaw did?), so that's a thing...but certainly I can find other obtainable, quality C's around the league if I can find this many former Hawks.  Good big men are just not hard gets.  I mean, we got Capela for a dang late 1st and he's IMO a solid Hawks (as a team) season away from an All Star bid.

Is OO better than a "good" big man?  Is he going to become the next great NBA defender?  Is he going to develop as more than a rim-runner/garbage man on offense?  If either of these questions is a "no", then...it is what it is.  These are the questions dude, and they're valid. 

What are the chances he ends up as just a good/decent defender with limited post game and an average shot?  How would he rank against that list?  I'm not saying that IS who he is or that's what I feel his ceiling is.  I'm only saying IF it is, then that's not something so rare or difficult to obtain.  

Hence, he's out there working on that jumper and rightfully so.

[Wretch]

Also...I'm getting off the Merry-go-round!  Ya'll have enough to prepare a properly seasoned plate of crow for me.  Also...I'm not going to commit to what I expect him to develop into.  Not right now, but I will after I see what he does with a month or so of games under his belt.

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

Hawks frontcourt players that I've watched, that were pretty good in their prime, that could challenge for a frontcourt start on this team, and were not selected with a lottery pick:

John Collins - #17
Clint Capela - #25
Josh Smith - #17
Al Harrington - #25
Grant Long - #33
Boris Diaw - #21
Paul Millsap - #47

 

What if I told you that with the exception (possibly) of Sap, that when it’s all said and done, OO will be better than all of them. Emphasis on the impact of winning with defense and rebounding and the smart plays.

 

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

Is OO better than a "good" big man?

Yes. Look at all the front court players that have around the same time table as O, in the landscape of the entire league, there are probably only a few. He’s gonna surprise you wretch. Again, I know that you like his game but I think he just has a tiny bit more in his repertoire than you think. I guess we just have to wait and see. 
 

But seriously, since you’ve been watching for 30 years you remember Webber. Remember how he set screens and handed the ball off to Rod Strickland and Doug Overton and some of his other DC guards? He handed it off like a in many ways. Only a few dudes do that that I’ve seen consistently and do it well, Jokic is one of them, OO has that handoff ability which is underrated and doubly underrated when you have beyond high IQ and competent guards like Trae and DM.

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

Hence, he's out there working on that jumper and rightfully so.

Exactly and on O, O will be slithery and beat people with straight out hustle and muscle more often than not. Dang I wish we could have him work with Hakeem, that would be a scary tutorial.

I’m telling you @Wretch I had one huuuuge fear for the 2020 draft and that was the Warriors somehow ending up with O. 
 

I believe he’s the one. Time will tell. Winning will tell. Ultimately winning SHOULD tell the story for most players but with O specially. He’s gonna probably average 12-16 ppg, 9-12 boards and 2-4 dimes and maybe a 1.2-1.8 steals and 1.5-2.2 blocks but WINNING.. CULTURE…

Sure, maybe you can find one later in the draft and maybe you can’t. But if you see one that looks the part and you gotta grab him at 6, then you grab him at 6 and never look back. Just my philosophy.

[Spud2nique]

3 hours ago, Wretch said:

Also...I'm getting off the Merry-go-round!  Ya'll have enough to prepare a properly seasoned plate of crow for me.  Also...I'm not going to commit to what I expect him to develop into.  Not right now, but I will after I see what he does with a month or so of games under his belt.

Can I get off with you?  I mean ummm..

THE MERRY GO ROUND!  I like it, I like basketball and I like O now and beyond. The end? 

[Spud2nique]

Ok I dunno what DM has done to me so I’m ballin today and 2 younger teens (maybe 14,15 I can’t tell anymore) one wearing a Duke another a Sixers.

I said .. WHAT UP WHO WE DEALIN WIT TODAY JOEL EMBIID OR FURKAN KORKMAZ? They like  ..prolly thinkin yo what’s this dude dressed up as Marvin Williams with Nique socks and Don Mitch yellow (clearance a few years back) shoes sayin to us, does he want some?

I did. I said 2 on 1 but they said 21, I said ok. I got 21 and one had 5 and the other 2.

Am I proud of myself for beating them? Why the hell not how much more do I gotta celebrate #yolo

ps I could see an Embiid wanting to come out of that kid but a very weak Embiid, timid but some post moves. Nice work kid!

#youbeenMARVED #happyfriday

[HawkingAwesome]

3 hours ago, Spud2nique said:

Ok I dunno what DM has done to me so I’m ballin today and 2 younger teens (maybe 14,15 I can’t tell anymore) one wearing a Duke another a Sixers.

I said .. WHAT UP WHO WE DEALIN WIT TODAY JOEL EMBIID OR FURKAN KORKMAZ? They like  ..prolly thinkin yo what’s this dude dressed up as Marvin Williams with Nique socks and Don Mitch yellow (clearance a few years back) shoes sayin to us, does he want some?

I did. I said 2 on 1 but they said 21, I said ok. I got 21 and one had 5 and the other 2.

Am I proud of myself for beating them? Why the hell not how much more do I gotta celebrate #yolo

ps I could see an Embiid wanting to come out of that kid but a very weak Embiid, timid but some post moves. Nice work kid!

#youbeenMARVED #happyfriday

Those socks are fire

[HawkingAwesome]

The worse character are the guys who are quietly demoralized and give up in silence 

[Spud2nique]

6 hours ago, HawkingAwesome said:

Those socks are fire

Thanks Got them online mitchell n ness. I had the Nique, Marvin and Trae generation all covered today lol.

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Spud2nique]

18 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

Baby boy  

[JayBirdHawk]

Trae and Clint.

 

 

[Spud2nique]

54 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Trae and Clint.

 

 

Ok I think we are gonna be good. Jinx no jinx! I’m craving another special season like 2015 or 2020.

[MarylandHawk]

Murray back at Crawsover with Bron tomorrow. 

[Spud2nique]

Beef squashed NOT