Drew League 2022...Plus Other Summer ProAm Leagues & Smack Talk

[marco102]

3 hours ago, NBASupes said:

When OO is our PF leading us to titles, some of those haters will be in their feels

And when he's not will you come back and just say you gas light some players and always put down the players you don't like for some reason?. i.e. John Collins? 

Don't hand me that you like John Collins when you generally always bringing up his weaknesses like they outweigh his strengths.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, Wretch said:

The ideal return on a high lottery pick is a bit more than a "good defender with a motor and high mobility."  If he shows us that "a bit more" on the court, I will exhale.  Though, aside from scrimmage and training video, he hasn't shown it.

I will say that being injured two consecutive summers did not help in his player development. So I think in that sense he is trending below where he should be.

[marco102]

13 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I will say that being injured two consecutive summers did not help in his player development. So I think in that sense he is trending below where he should be.

With those variables, I saw he's actually trending above when you consider how little development time he's actually had. 

[Wretch]

58 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

You’re still mad we took him at 6 in 2020 huh?

LOL, no.  I was...hold on...let me do this right. I was...

FURIOUS,

LIVID,

ENRAGED,

AND MOTHER'FLARKIN' DISGUSTED

...when we passed on Luka to draft that skinny kid in the ridiculous shorts.  Though I managed to control my fury after Trae's summer league, and was actually super impressed by his natural PG skills.  Though I was still disappointed.  I didn't exhale on Trae until mid rookie season. Then I was like, "Oh...  Let me just shut the hell up then."

I'm not mad about drafting Okongwu.  I simply don't share the hype.  I haven't seen a #6 pick in him now and I didn't see it when we drafted him.  I saw a serviceable big man, albeit possibly the name brand of plain ol' Corn Flakes vs. Great Value^TM option. lol We are going on 3 years in and I'm still waiting to see what he is.  For the record again, my first choice was find a way to move up for Melo.  That's the kid I wanted.  There were a couple of guys that I liked more than OO, but I would been much more satisfied with packaging the pick in a power move.

I don't know what we saw in OO during the workouts and I don't know what deals were on the table or how much effort we put into that.  So, I have to concede there and hope for the best.  Consider though, that I managed to not "hate" on Trae despite my disappointment (rated 10).  I think I have it in me suppress my disappointment (rated 6~) to not hate on Okongwu as a #6 pick.

[Wretch]

44 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I will say that being injured two consecutive summers did not help in his player development. So I think in that sense he is trending below where he should be.

I guess? I mean...yeah.  I think we're moving in the direction of his development vs. his potential though.  We're waiting on his development.  I didn't (and don't) see the potential in him at #6 to get excited.

I've at least seen (quite a bit honestly) of what DeAndre Hunter could be and he's also had developmental setbacks.  I'm comfortable with whatever his outcome is even if I'm ultimately disappointed in his development and the investment made in him.  I'll at least know why we moved up to get him.

I'm waiting to see why we drafted OO at #6.

[Spud2nique]

24 minutes ago, Wretch said:

Corn Flakes vs. Great Value^TM option.

Have you had the grocery store brand? It’s unbearable. 

 

25 minutes ago, Wretch said:

We are going on 3 years in and I'm still waiting to see what he is. 

Ok I’m gonna have to mention (not make excuses but mention)

1. Covid (tell me others in his draft going crazy right now with the minutes given to them; not a Haliburton whose a starter but a guy that gets as much burn as OO.

2. Nate. Look the dude won’t play some guys.. Cam (now we know why tho on him), JJ (talent is there) OO (more minutes needed last year from our head man Nate).

3. Capela. Look we traded for Capela and all parties involved knew he was THE MAN until OO was ready. Could Nate play Capela off the bench if OO had forced his hand… I honestly don’t know. Having said that, Capela IS THE VET. Usually young guys come in as backups for a couple years as you already know, and some, sure are put into the limelight right away.

All I’m saying I’d give OO a few more “at bats” before making the final call on him. 

 

Clyde Drexler took a few years to be Clyde Drexler. 
 

.. Although apparently he didn’t faint before games that was Sandler’s wife  

[Spud2nique]

10 minutes ago, Wretch said:

I'll at least know why we moved up to get him.

Why? I mean, again in the time given to Hunter as a starter, you can’t compare with the playing time given to OO.

I’m not a numbers guy but what’s their production like per min. played?

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Spud2nique said:

Have you had the grocery store brand? It’s unbearable. 

 

Ok I’m gonna have to mention (not make excuses but mention)

1. Covid (tell me others in his draft going crazy right now with the minutes given to them; not a Haliburton whose a starter but a guy that gets as much burn as OO.

2. Nate. Look the dude won’t play some guys.. Cam (now we know why tho on him), JJ (talent is there) OO (more minutes needed last year from our head man Nate).

3. Capela. Look we traded for Capela and all parties involved knew he was THE MAN until OO was ready. Could Nate play Capela off the bench if OO had forced his hand… I honestly don’t know. Having said that, Capela IS THE VET. Usually young guys come in as backups for a couple years as you already know, and some, sure are put into the limelight right away.

All I’m saying I’d give OO a few more “at bats” before making the final call on him. 

 

Clyde Drexler took a few years to be Clyde Drexler. 
 

.. Although apparently he didn’t faint before games that was Sandler’s wife  

Nah.  We've seen almost 100 games and he'll be 22 soon.  He's obviously as good as he'll ever be. 

[Spud2nique]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Nah.  We've seen almost 100 games and he'll be 22 soon.  He's obviously as good as he'll ever be. 

Wait, is this in green font?  Im befuddled… 

[macdaddy]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

Wait, is this in green font?  Im befuddled… 

I thought it was too obvious to bother with the green but you're right.  probably not. 

[Spud2nique]

One last thing about OO…

African Will and strength sometimes overcomes the modern day “step back fling a 3 cuz I’m a center and I think I’m a guard” look. 
 

(I don’t know why I though of KAT when I said that.. oh wait, is he a center still)?

 

[Spud2nique]

Just now, Spud2nique said:

(I don’t know why I though of KAT when I said that.. oh wait, is he a center still)?

So with the acquisitions of DM and Gobert for the Hawks and Wolves , what are the official positions for Trae and KAT? SG and PF respectively? 
 

Trae at shooting guard. When we got DM, I thought they’d still list Trae at PG officially but nope. I’m just curious because from here on out are we sizing up Trae’s numbers against other shooting guards in the league? Like does he get bunched in with the Beal’s and Derozan’s now?

[LucastheThird]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

When OO is our PF leading us to titles, some of those haters will be in their feels

I honestly think he will outplay Clint before he outplays JC in the PF role. 

 

I'm feeling like JC will be an All Star this year and would be willing to place a friendly wager on it if you're up for it. 

[Wretch]

30 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

Why? I mean, again in the time given to Hunter as a starter, you can’t compare with the playing time given to OO.

I’m not a numbers guy but what’s their production like per min. played?

Sooooo...  I'm not a stats guy.  I have never been a stats guy.  I'm probably the antithesis of that.  I'm an eye test guy.  It's not about the numbers, it's about watching him play.  Analyzing how he plays the game, reading what the scouts say about him, and watching his development.  I see a guy who can defend and could possibly be elite at it.  He has FANTASTIC motion towards the basket and good hands.  He's so fluid twisting and leaping down low. 

This is not exclusive lottery potential and it's where you're just not following me. You absolutely do not, under any circumstance, have to draft a guy with a high lottery pick to get that kind of return on a front court player.  We have literally two such example players starting ahead of him right now.  That kind of player is SO readily available.  Not a bad thing.  Not at all.  It's just not something you have to spend big money on.  Like playing $5 for a baked potato.  It's good, but you can get that at home lol

For me to get excited, I need to see OO plus a face up/off the dribble, post up, or perimeter shooting.  For a lottery pick, I'd like to see all of that...even if just flashes of it.  I'm not giving Hunter a pass.  I'm saying that I have seen flashes of him being ridiculous - on both sides of the ball.  Same with Cam.  Same with Collins actually...and you look at him and say, "this dude should have gone top 10."

[kg01]

9 minutes ago, LucastheThird said:

I honestly think he will outplay Clint before he outplays JC in the PF role. 

 

I'm feeling like JC will be an All Star this year and would be willing to place a friendly wager on it if you're up for it. 

Know why you think this?  It's because OO is clearly and obviously a center. 

To everyone not trying to stealth diss Collins.

[macdaddy]

28 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

So with the acquisitions of DM and Gobert for the Hawks and Wolves , what are the official positions for Trae and KAT? SG and PF respectively? 
 

Trae at shooting guard. When we got DM, I thought they’d still list Trae at PG officially but nope. I’m just curious because from here on out are we sizing up Trae’s numbers against other shooting guards in the league? Like does he get bunched in with the Beal’s and Derozan’s now?

What?  where are you seeing that.  Trae is the PG for sure.  

[Wretch]

And I'm well aware of the playing time and polish that Collins has had.  You could still see the potential in him 2 years in.  Especially after Trae unlocked him.  You could see his potential and make the argument back then that he should have gone higher. 

Same with Jalen Johnson...damn, straight up forgot about him.  Yes, we have to see what he can actually do against NBA competition, but the potential gets me excited.  Not on the defensive end, but certainly on the other side of the ball.  Though I*F* he does develop into a decent defender and develops into what he has shown flashes of on offense, then he's just as valuable a prospect as OO...but taken at #20.

[JeffS17]

2 hours ago, Wretch said:

Haterism and skepticism are two different animals lol  I'm an Okongwu skeptic, not a hater and in truth, I have been more unimpressed than skeptical. Moreover, my opinion was/is less about his ceiling and more about where we picked him.  The ideal return on a high lottery pick is a bit more than a "good defender with a motor and high mobility."  If he shows us that "a bit more" on the court, I will exhale.  Though, aside from scrimmage and training video, he hasn't shown it.

Again, for proper retrospect, I would be excited to pick up a free agent, trade for, or draft a mid/late 1st or second rounder that is a good defender with a motor and high mobility.  I am not excited about a lottery pick who's selling points are precisely the same.  Also, (trademark Wretch phrase incoming...) I have never been a Hawks player hater.  Coaches, GM's...I've got my pitchfork and torch on standby.  Not with Hawks players.  I don't give up on guys.  Hell, I defended Big Dog until the very end.  Regarding Okongwu, it is PURELY about the price tag.  There are expectations that come with that #6 pick that was spent on him.

Saw a quick piece on OO FYI...and video of him balling:
https://soaringdownsouth.com/2022/08/06/atlanta-hawks-onyeka-okongwu-work/?a_aid=40179&fbclid=IwAR2uVDsnXmO6U1AQdpVHOYVwILbVpdCEw__ILgsfx_w3JMqq2r1Pt7qoOrE

 

I see this a lot but peoples expectations for a #6 pick are way too high.  The draft is largely a crap shoot outside of the top couple of picks which tend to pan out at a much higher rate.  For reference, here are the #6 picks for the past ~20 years.  Outside of Lillard, who was a nice snag at #6, this is not an impressive list.  Some borderline all-star but a lot of dudes that didn't even stay in the league that long.  Your average #6 pick is a McDonalds All-American in high school and then teeters around a starter/bench role in the NBA, with a low chance of even sniffing an all-star selection.

All this to say I think peoples expectations for draft picks is absurdly high.  Calling it a lottery is perfect imo because that's exactly what these picks are, lottery tickets.  It's actually amazing Schlenk landed Heurter and JC so late in the draft and imo is a testament to his scouting/drafting.  I won't even get into Okongwu himself and his unfortunate offseason injuries and inability to focus and work on his game until this offseason.  I'm extremely bullish on OO and even if he only develops into a decent starting level PF or C, that will be a great success based on your average mid-lottery selection.  

 

[Wretch]

12 minutes ago, JeffS17 said:

I see this a lot but peoples expectations for a #6 pick are way too high.  The draft is largely a crap shoot outside of the top couple of picks which tend to pan out at a much higher rate.  For reference, here are the #6 picks for the past ~20 years.  Outside of Lillard, who was a nice snag at #6, this is not an impressive list.  Some borderline all-star but a lot of dudes that didn't even stay in the league that long.  Your average #6 pick is a McDonalds All-American in high school and then teeters around a starter/bench role in the NBA, with a low chance of even sniffing an all-star selection.

All this to say I think peoples expectations for draft picks is absurdly high.  Calling it a lottery is perfect imo because that's exactly what these picks are, lottery tickets.  It's actually amazing Schlenk landed Heurter and JC so late in the draft and imo is a testament to his scouting/drafting.  I won't even get into Okongwu himself and his unfortunate offseason injuries and inability to focus and work on his game until this offseason.  I'm extremely bullish on OO and even if he only develops into a decent starting level PF or C, that will be a great success based on your average mid-lottery selection.  

 

The problem here is that you're cherry-picking.  The same logic applies to the actual lottery picks 1-3 (now through 5).  You can do the same thing at any SPECIFIC pick and you'll see similar trend.  Yes, it's a crap shoot.  Expand your search for #4-7 and observe the higher quality.  Ideally, that's what you want - not that you're guaranteed to get it.  The idea is to cast a net into the pool that produces the franchise changing talent, backed by irrefutable statistics.  None of us expect that this is an automatic thing, though we all understand the VALUE of the pick given the history.  Which is why lottery picks are hard to come by.

I'm not excited about OO as a prospect within that #4-7 range when it's clear that you do not have to spend that VALUE of a pick on a "serviceable big man."  That does not automatically mean that I "hate" him, nor does it mean he cannot develop into a better player.  This isn't really that difficult of a thing to process, nor is it a controversial take.

[Wretch]

Also, I say 4-7 range for a couple of reasons.  One, because IMO, it's easier to move up into the 4-5 from 6 or 7 than it would be to say, move into the lottery from the outside of it without giving up a talent that was either taken in that range or worth taking in that range.  Secondly, and primarily, because the talent you get at 4 can probably be had around 6-7 depending on scouting, workouts, team needs, etc.