The East becoming a bloodbath like the West used to be

[Spud2nique]

Just now, JayBirdHawk said:

My biggest concern is Nate and in game adjustments, coaching by feel and game flow when things are going down hill in lieu of sticking with his 'that's the rotation' mantra.

You know, despite hating the Warriors I always kind of liked the way Don Nelson coached back in the day. He coached like he was IN THE GAME himself and using every tactic know to man.. going small, transition game, switching up the D looks when things are working and like you started with.. Nellie was prolly on of the best “in game” situational coaches I’ve ever seen.

 

IN GAME ADJUSTMENTS!!!!  I just feel like when it’s not working, he keeps trying to make it work instead of having a plan B. 

[kg01]

20 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I am a big fan of the collection of talent in Cleveland.

I feel strongly that Evan Mobley is going to be the best player on that roster eventually. He is the only 2 way player they have and he is already dang good defensively with no real holes on offense, just raw.

In the mean time, Mitchell and Garland are both straight buckets, and Mobley and Allen are an elite defensive duo.

Matchup wise, we have the advantage in that they only have 1 strong perimeter defender in Okoro. One of Trae/Murray will always be able to go off. Not to mention, Dre will always have a smaller defender on him who likely is the weakest of their starters. This means that we will always have 2 favorable matchups to exploit on the outside. Cleveland would have to run a lot of zone to funnel guys to the teeth of their defense where the bigs are.

On defense, Dre and Murray are good enough to bother Mitchell and Garland. Trae gets Okoro who is a self check. Allen is only a threat at the rim, where Capela is the best. Mobley is their best matchup on offense against JC, especially because he can score from everywhere. OO is the perfect defender against a player like Mobley.

Chicago, Toronto, Miami, and Milwaukee didn’t really do anything to improve their rosters. Miami and Milwaukee may be good enough to sustain status quo, but Chicago and Toronto will likely take a step back.

Boston got better but only marginally so now that Gallo went down.

Philly is primed to take a leap. Like the Nets, they have the best top end talent with a chip and something to prove. 

My loose predictions:

1. Philly (top 3 guaranteed)

2. Boston (top 3 guaranteed)

3. Milwaukee (can swing from 1-6)

4. Brooklyn (can swing from 1-10)

5. Atlanta (I have us at 4 or 5, upsetting one of the favorites from last season)

6. Miami (they finish within a game of us. We potentially win division on tie breaker scenarios. I predict the biggest drop off of all contender from last season)

7. Cleveland (Can swing anywhere from 4-7)

8. Toronto (will make everyone’s life hard, all season long)

9. Chicago (too talented to suck, but not quite as good as everyone else)

10. Charlotte (too talented to suck, but not quite as good as everyone else)

My only beef is calling Okoro a perimeter defender.  That rep is largely unearned, imho, and he certainly can't guard Trae.  I'm good with the rest, for the most part. 

[RedDawg#8]

Just now, kg01 said:

My only beef is calling Okoro a perimeter defender.  That rep is largely unearned, imho, and he certainly can't guard Trae.  I'm good with the rest, for the most part. 

Not mad at that at all. He certainly cannot. But who can if we are being honest? 

Either way, we agree that the Cavs don't have what it takes to slow us down on the outside.

[kg01]

22 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Not mad at that at all. He certainly cannot. But who can if we are being honest? 

Either way, we agree that the Cavs don't have what it takes to slow us down on the outside.

On paper, they should be able to contain us for the most part.  But that was true last year too.  I think folks assume a lot "will" happen w.r.t. the Cavs but we still have to see it.

Folks predict greatness for Mobley but, for him to achieve it, guys like Garland and now Mitchell have to give up some of their usage.  I don't see how Mobleys ascension can happen while Garland/Mitchell are justifying their contract and acquisition, respectively.

[RedDawg#8]

13 minutes ago, kg01 said:

On paper, they should be able to contain us for the most part.  But that was true last year too.  I think folks assume a lot "will" happen w.r.t. the Cavs but we still have to see it.

Folks predict greatness for Mobley but, for him to achieve it, guys like Garland and now Mitchell have to give up some of their usage.  I don't see how Mobleys ascension can happen while Garland/Mitchell are justifying their contract and acquisition, respectively.

That's easier for me to predict, because his touches and game overall compliment theirs. I am more curious/doubtful of Garland and Mitchell taking away from each other than I am Mobley. Big men historically thrive when paired with great guards. I think that Mobley has KG talent/potential. If we compare the Cavs to the 2008 era Celtics, Mitchell can be Paul Pierce as the iso, clutch shot maker, Garland is a lesser (but combined) version of Rondo's passing and Allen's spacing. Mobley can still be great next to those 2 if they play the right way.

I think that Mobley is still a couple of years away from his peek however, and Mitchell may leave after his contract expires in 2 years, so it may all be moot anyway. 

[Spud2nique]

4 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

That's easier for me to predict, because his touches and game overall compliment theirs. I am more curious/doubtful of Garland and Mitchell taking away from each other than I am Mobley. Big men historically thrive when paired with great guards. I think that Mobley has KG talent/potential. If we compare the Cavs to the 2008 era Celtics, Mitchell can be Paul Pierce as the iso, clutch shot maker, Garland is a lesser (but combined) version of Rondo's passing and Allen's spacing. Mobley can still be great next to those 2 if they play the right way.

I think that Mobley is still a couple of years away from his peek however, and Mitchell may leave after his contract expires in 2 years, so it may all be moot anyway. 

Raps>Cavs

@kg01 is willing to put his avatar on the line for Nick Nurse and his beautiful mind.

[Final_quest]

22 hours ago, Diesel said:

I don't think you have to be either or with this, you can be both and .  I think situation dictates what type of offense we have.  meaning, we be opportunistic with the PNR.  If we play teams that are not getting back in transition, then we become a transition team and fast break them to death.  If a team does get back in transition, we quickly move into the PNR.  See Phoenix Suns under D'Antoni.  Part of his appeal to me was that he insisted that his team get up the floor in a hurry.. but when they got there, he had a PNR game that took 7 seconds to develop.   To me, if you can work that out, you will end up breaking down other teams... especially teams of this era.

 

So, last year we were towards the bottom of the league in transition offense.  Do you see us moving to the top 10?  I see us moving to the middle of the pack.  
We will be in the top 5 in PNR offense, maybe even #1.  I don’t see us running a Steve Nash style offense, although that would be fun to watch.  

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, Final_quest said:

So, last year we were towards the bottom of the league in transition offense.  Do you see us moving to the top 10?  I see us moving to the middle of the pack.  
We will be in the top 5 in PNR offense, maybe even #1.  I don’t see us running a Steve Nash style offense, although that would be fun to watch.  

If we make the effort to be opportunistic, I can easily see us being top 10.   You want to rank everything.   Alright, let's play that game...

Who are the top 5 transition offense teams?  How much better were they at it than us last year?

My contention is that the whole league is slow...   We're what maybe 5 to 6 points out of the top 5...  That's 3 transition scores...

[Gray Mule]

Hawks have three pretty good players who are not PGs that have all been on the injured list over this off season.  All three should be 100% healthy for the upcoming season.  They can all score some.

Bogdan B.

Jalen J.

AJ G.

All three of these guys means that you will pay if you concentrate all your defensive energy on stopping Murray and Young.  There are plenty of others to fret about but these three are now injured but we sxpect all three to fully recover before preseason arrives.

Edited September 6, 2022 by Gray Mule

[Final_quest]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

If we make the effort to be opportunistic, I can easily see us being top 10.   You want to rank everything.   Alright, let's play that game...

Who are the top 5 transition offense teams?  How much better were they at it than us last year?

My contention is that the whole league is slow...   We're what maybe 5 to 6 points out of the top 5...  That's 3 transition scores...

You might be right.  I hadn't looked at the full list.  If we add 4 transition buckets a game, we're basically towards the very top.  San Antonio was #8 last year at 13.6 ppg. 

Although, we have been close to the bottom the past two years.  To me that means Trae is not a transition guy, it's not his game.  It could also mean that Delon Wright, Lou Williams, and Rondo we're never gonna get you much in transition while Trae is on the bench. 

I'm back at where I was.  See us at middle of the pack.  Trae doesn't do transition and DM alone won't take us to the top.   

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game

[JayBirdHawk]

16 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

You might be right.  I hadn't looked at the full list.  If we add 4 transition buckets a game, we're basically towards the very top.  San Antonio was #8 last year at 13.6 ppg. 

Although, we have been close to the bottom the past two years.  To me that means Trae is not a transition guy, it's not his game.  It could also mean that Delon Wright, Lou Williams, and Rondo we're never gonna get you much in transition while Trae is on the bench. 

I'm back at where I was.  See us at middle of the pack.  Trae doesn't do transition and DM alone won't take us to the top.   

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game

I don't think it's only Trae - guys gotta run with him. Also with other weak ball handlers, when they get a rebound they are looking backwards for Trae which gives the defense time to recover.

Nate did mention once that they needed to push the pace and stop ALWAYS looking back for Trae - particularly Huerter, Hunter and Bogi. If Hunter was a better rebounder he could do that. Too many times we are playing against a set defense, so we struggle getting easy baskets.

Murray is a great rebounder so he can grab the rebound and go.

[Gray Mule]

From his history, we know that Jalen Johnson is very good at grabbing a rebound and tossing it ahead for the fast break.  The problem?  He can't do this from the end of the bench!

Edited September 6, 2022 by Gray Mule

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, Final_quest said:

.  Trae doesn't do transition and DM alone won't take us to the top.   

https://www.teamrankings.com/nba/stat/fastbreak-points-per-game

I disagree. 

You think transition scoring is an offensive trait.  NO.. Transition scoring happens on defensive side of the ball.   Trae is not a great transition scorer because  he's not a great defender.   However, I expect DM to get 3 to 4 transition buckets per game easily.   The thing is, we have to be supportive.. that means that JC and Clint has to run with him... and I think that will happen. 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I don't think it's only Trae - guys gotta run with him. Also with other weak ball handlers, when they get a rebound they are looking backwards for Trae which gives the defense time to recover.

Nate did mention once that they needed to push the pace and stop ALWAYS looking back for Trae - particularly Huerter, Hunter and Bogi. If Hunter was a better rebounder he could do that. Too many times we are playing against a set defense, so we struggle getting easy baskets.

Murray is a great rebounder so he can grab the rebound and go.

My hope is that Murray rubs off on our guys.

[Final_quest]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

I disagree. 

You think transition scoring is an offensive trait.  NO.. Transition scoring happens on defensive side of the ball.   Trae is not a great transition scorer because  he's not a great defender.   However, I expect DM to get 3 to 4 transition buckets per game easily.   The thing is, we have to be supportive.. that means that JC and Clint has to run with him... and I think that will happen. 

 

It's generated by defense primarily.  If we are a top 5 transition team, it probably means we will be close to 60 wins.  So, I hope you are right.  

[RedDawg#8]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

I disagree. 

You think transition scoring is an offensive trait.  NO.. Transition scoring happens on defensive side of the ball.   Trae is not a great transition scorer because  he's not a great defender.   However, I expect DM to get 3 to 4 transition buckets per game easily.   The thing is, we have to be supportive.. that means that JC and Clint has to run with him... and I think that will happen. 

 

Agree. You don’t have a transition when you are inbounding the ball. 

Murray’s DNA is to grab and go with the ball. Something we have been missing for a while. 

[Diesel]

43 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

It's generated by defense primarily.  If we are a top 5 transition team, it probably means we will be close to 60 wins.  So, I hope you are right.  

Like I said, to be top 5 is prolly about 3 to 4 more transition scores.   It's not a lot.  I value the stops more.  However, I think if we become opportunistic with transition scoring even on the rebound running it down instead of walking it down...  Then you will see us move into the higher echelon of winning.   Honestly, I think if we can institute a run when we rebound and everybody runs on blocks and steals and learn to run our lanes like LMU back in the day...  We will crush the association.  I can easily see 64-65 wins.

 

[Final_quest]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

Like I said, to be top 5 is prolly about 3 to 4 more transition scores.   It's not a lot.  I value the stops more.  However, I think if we become opportunistic with transition scoring even on the rebound running it down instead of walking it down...  Then you will see us move into the higher echelon of winning.   Honestly, I think if we can institute a run when we rebound and everybody runs on blocks and steals and learn to run our lanes like LMU back in the day...  We will crush the association.  I can easily see 64-65 wins.

 

That's cool.  It definitely sounds like a fan prediction to me.  Worst to first in transition baskets and 65 wins.  If we become a top 10 defensive team, we are looking at being a 1 or 2 seed in the playoffs.  

[JayBirdHawk]

Listen from the 55:00 minute mark.

 

 

[Peoriabird]

I'm curious as to why people think Mobley has this amazing potential?  His offense is pretty limited