Alright Squawkers... Time for the Hard Convo......

[Diesel]

DeAndre Hunter...

I'm not going to talk about him deserving the extension because I believe the smartest play would be stall him out, let him go RFA and immediately match.   That way we leave the door open for a supermax type if one becomes available.   Come on KAT.

Ok, Ok, OK...

but... How much is he Worth??  For Argument sake.. at 4 years, he's definitely over 100 Million.   Maybe over 125....

But Pros...  3& D player at 6'8". 

Con... and this gets me...  He rebounds like a poor girl rebounder. 

Cheyenne Parker is a better rebounder than Hunter. 

So.. what's your take... how much is he worth?

 

 

[shakes]

I don't follow salaries and all that stuff, but in my expert opinion he is worth $20 million less than whatever OG Anunoby gets.

[JayBirdHawk]

6 minutes ago, shakes said:

I don't follow salaries and all that stuff, but in my expert opinion he is worth $20 million less than whatever OG Anunoby gets.

OG signed a 4year/$72 million deal....so you'd offer Hunter 4/$52??? That's laughable and unrealistic.

CONTRACT:4 yr(s) / $72,000,000

AVG. SALARY:$18,000,000

GTD AT SIGN:$72,000,000

SIGNED USING:Rookie Extension/Bird

FREE AGENT:2025 / UFA

YEAR		AGE	BASE SALARY	LIKELY INCENT.	UNLIKELY INCENT.	TRADE BONUS	CAP HIT	PCT OF LEAGUE CAP	YEARLY CASH	GUARANTEED
2021-22		24	$16,071,429	-	-	-	$16,071,429	14.30%	$16,071,429($16,071,429)	$16,071,429
2022-23		25	$17,357,143	-	-	-	$17,357,143	14.04%	$17,357,143($33,428,572)	$17,357,143
2023-24		26	$18,642,857	-	-	-	$18,642,857	13.91%	$18,642,857($52,071,429)	$18,642,857
2024-25		27	$19,928,571	-	-	-	$19,928,571	13.94%	$19,928,571($72,000,000)	$19,928,571

 

 

[shakes]

7 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

OG signed a 4year/$72 million deal....so you'd offer Hunter 4/$52??? That's laughable and unrealistic.

CONTRACT:4 yr(s) / $72,000,000

AVG. SALARY:$18,000,000

GTD AT SIGN:$72,000,000

SIGNED USING:Rookie Extension/Bird

FREE AGENT:2025 / UFA

YEAR		AGE	BASE SALARY	LIKELY INCENT.	UNLIKELY INCENT.	TRADE BONUS	CAP HIT	PCT OF LEAGUE CAP	YEARLY CASH	GUARANTEED
2021-22		24	$16,071,429	-	-	-	$16,071,429	14.30%	$16,071,429($16,071,429)	$16,071,429
2022-23		25	$17,357,143	-	-	-	$17,357,143	14.04%	$17,357,143($33,428,572)	$17,357,143
2023-24		26	$18,642,857	-	-	-	$18,642,857	13.91%	$18,642,857($52,071,429)	$18,642,857
2024-25		27	$19,928,571	-	-	-	$19,928,571	13.94%	$19,928,571($72,000,000)	$19,928,571

 

 

well he is a worse player so....

 

Maybe not $20 million worse since I assumed we were talking the difference between 100m and 80m, but definitely worse and should make less money.

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

12 minutes ago, shakes said:

well he is a worse player so....

 

Maybe not $20 million worse since I assumed we were talking the difference between 100m and 80m, but definitely worse and should make less money.

 

 

I think OG gets overrated a lot.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	OG Anunoby	2021-22	24	48	48	1728	6.4	14.5	.443	2.4	6.6	.363	4.0	7.9	.511	1.9	2.5	.754	1.5	4.0	5.5	2.6	1.5	0.5	1.7	2.7	17.1
2	De'Andre Hunter	2021-22	24	53	52	1577	5.8	13.1	.442	1.7	4.5	.379	4.1	8.7	.474	2.9	3.8	.765	0.6	3.4	4.0	1.6	0.8	0.5	1.6	3.5	16.2

[shakes]

47 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think OG gets overrated a lot.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	OG Anunoby	2021-22	24	48	48	1728	6.4	14.5	.443	2.4	6.6	.363	4.0	7.9	.511	1.9	2.5	.754	1.5	4.0	5.5	2.6	1.5	0.5	1.7	2.7	17.1
2	De'Andre Hunter	2021-22	24	53	52	1577	5.8	13.1	.442	1.7	4.5	.379	4.1	8.7	.474	2.9	3.8	.765	0.6	3.4	4.0	1.6	0.8	0.5	1.6	3.5	16.2

I think Per 36 stats get overrated a lot.

[Diesel]

42 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think OG gets overrated a lot.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	OG Anunoby	2021-22	24	48	48	1728	6.4	14.5	.443	2.4	6.6	.363	4.0	7.9	.511	1.9	2.5	.754	1.5	4.0	5.5	2.6	1.5	0.5	1.7	2.7	17.1
2	De'Andre Hunter	2021-22	24	53	52	1577	5.8	13.1	.442	1.7	4.5	.379	4.1	8.7	.474	2.9	3.8	.765	0.6	3.4	4.0	1.6	0.8	0.5	1.6	3.5	16.2

While I don't evaluate/comparison evaluate players using per 36, Hunter's percentages are better.  It would suggest that Anunoby is more aggressive but that doesn't bare itself out from the FTs...  All in all, I would say that Anunoby is overrated.   Moreover, I wouldn't use Anunoby salary as a baseline anyway because I think he's underpaid.  This is probably due to the fact that Anunoby was drafted mid to late first round.  Draft position can effect future earnings,  ask Jokic.  Plus, the Market is about to turn up. 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

13 minutes ago, shakes said:

I think Per 36 stats get overrated a lot.

pick your stat then, and this is not me saying that Hunter has been better, just that I think in general OG is way overrated.

Per Game

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	eFG%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	OG Anunoby	2021-22	24	48	48	36.0	6.4	14.5	.443	2.4	6.6	.363	4.0	7.9	.511	.526	1.9	2.5	.754	1.5	4.0	5.5	2.6	1.5	0.5	1.7	2.7	17.1
2	De'Andre Hunter	2021-22	24	53	52	29.8	4.8	10.8	.442	1.4	3.7	.379	3.4	7.2	.474	.506	2.4	3.1	.765	0.5	2.8	3.3	1.3	0.7	0.4	1.3	2.9	13.4

 

 

Player Comparison: De'Andre Hunter vs. OG Anunoby | Stathead.com

[shakes]

59 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I think OG gets overrated a lot.

Per 36 Minutes

 

Rk	Player	Season	Age	G	GS	MP	FG	FGA	FG%	3P	3PA	3P%	2P	2PA	2P%	FT	FTA	FT%	ORB	DRB	TRB	AST	STL	BLK	TOV	PF	PTS
1	OG Anunoby	2021-22	24	48	48	1728	6.4	14.5	.443	2.4	6.6	.363	4.0	7.9	.511	1.9	2.5	.754	1.5	4.0	5.5	2.6	1.5	0.5	1.7	2.7	17.1
2	De'Andre Hunter	2021-22	24	53	52	1577	5.8	13.1	.442	1.7	4.5	.379	4.1	8.7	.474	2.9	3.8	.765	0.6	3.4	4.0	1.6	0.8	0.5	1.6	3.5	16.2

I'm not an advanced stats guy, but aren't these the stats that all teh kids are using these days?

 

VORP = Hunter -0.8, OG 1.1

BPM = Hunter -3.8, OG 0.5

WS = Hunter 1.1, OG 3.7

TS% = Hunter .547, OG .549

PER = Hunter 10.6, OG 14.8

 

What am I missing here?  Seems pretty clear that OG is the better player and therefore deserves to be paid more.

[JayBirdHawk]

4 minutes ago, shakes said:

I'm not an advanced stats guy, but aren't these the stats that all teh kids are using these days?

 

VORP = Hunter -0.8, OG 1.1

BPM = Hunter -3.8, OG 0.5

WS = Hunter 1.1, OG 3.7

TS% = Hunter .547, OG .549

PER = Hunter 10.6, OG 14.8

 

What am I missing here?  Seems pretty clear that OG is the better player and therefore deserves to be paid more.

I did not once say that OG has not been the better player to date.  I say that he is consistently overrated - even in terms of his assigned trade value.

[Jdawgflow]

I would offer 4/$64m

Dre likely wants 4/$100m

i would accept 4/$72m

likely going to RFA 

[shakes]

14 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

I did not once say that OG has not been the better player to date.  I say that he is consistently overrated - even in terms of his assigned trade value.

so if he's overrated (according to you), but underpaid (according to Diesel), but is a better player than Hunter (according to all of us) what does that mean for Hunter's contract?

Being overrated while at the same time underpaid doesn't really make a lot of sense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

DJM makes Hunter expendable. The biggest thing that people will see right off the bat, is the amount of effort and energy Murray plays with, compared to Hunter.

No extension for Hunter. With 2 playmaking guards, he should easily have his most efficient season ever. If he doesn't, it's time to look to upgrade the SF position.

[Final_quest]

 

6 hours ago, shakes said:

I'm not an advanced stats guy, but aren't these the stats that all teh kids are using these days?

 

VORP = Hunter -0.8, OG 1.1

BPM = Hunter -3.8, OG 0.5

WS = Hunter 1.1, OG 3.7

TS% = Hunter .547, OG .549

PER = Hunter 10.6, OG 14.8

 

What am I missing here?  Seems pretty clear that OG is the better player and therefore deserves to be paid more.

Something feels off about criticizing OG and propping Hunter up.  Not because OG is great, but I think Hunter has more to prove.  Hunter provides slightly better than average defense but is below average at almost everything else.  It's like trying to get excited about the 23rd best starting SF in the league.  He's not the worst and might one day play above average.  Is that worth $100M?  

I want to see if he can at least play the same level he did his sophomore season.  He's in a position to show his worth, and I hope he shows us something to be excited about.   

[Diesel]

8 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

DJM makes Hunter expendable. The biggest thing that people will see right off the bat, is the amount of effort and energy Murray plays with, compared to Hunter.

No extension for Hunter. With 2 playmaking guards, he should easily have his most efficient season ever. If he doesn't, it's time to look to upgrade the SF position.

 

I don't think he makes him expendable but like you, I believe that he should make him better.   We have seen the workouts of Hunter and they are contract year workouts.  My question is having a summer to work out (finally) will this make a difference.   I hope so.  It's a lot on the line for this team and he has to hold his own.   I can see him getting about 25 per (with the cap going up) but I still think he needs to earn it.  I know that if he goes RFA, there will be interest around the league because 3&D 6'8 forwards are disappearing.  But his lack of rebounding is troubling and I know that DJM is going to come in and show him what rebounding looks like. 

However, When you have a defensive player like Clint and you get a defensive player like DJM... you don't want to lose a good defensive player like Hunter...

But Hunter got to know that JJ is coming and Tyrese is coming and VIt is coming!  The only person not coming is AJ...  he has a hangnail. 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

But his lack of rebounding is troubling

You'll be happy to know he battled for rebounds tonight in the scrimmage and was able to run the break after the rebound.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

You'll be happy to know he battled for rebounds tonight in the scrimmage and was able to run the break after the rebound.

We need that all season!

 

[MarylandHawk]

I am not even concerned about whether his numbers are better. I am concerned about his effectiveness on wins. When Solomon Hill started for us, his numbers were atrocious but his effectiveness was an all time high on wins.  The only time I can remember Dre being essential to wins is the New York playoff wins and that one game against Doncic the the first time we played the Mavs this year.   I would wait to pay him next year even if the price is higher because he really needs to show he can push us into championship contention with his play. If he does that, I can see a John Collins type deal. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, MarylandHawk said:

I am not even concerned about whether his numbers are better. I am concerned about his effectiveness on wins. When Solomon Hill started for us, his numbers were atrocious but his effectiveness was an all time high on wins.  The only time I can remember Dre being essential to wins is the New York playoff wins and that one game against Doncic the the first time we played the Mavs this year.   I would wait to pay him next year even if the price is higher because he really needs to show he can push us into championship contention with his play. If he does that, I can see a John Collins type deal. 

Everything I'm hearing is that a summer of working out and help on the defensive side of the ball should help him to be who he can be...

Well, check and check...

 

[benhillboy]

I’m here for the stat fight.  @JayBirdHawk with the left hook off the jab, @shakes with the sneaky short uppercut lol.

By my calculation OG doesn’t really help nor hurt the Raptors (offensive and defensive ratings in lockstep with the team that was 11th net) and in my limited viewing of him it’s accurate.  I don’t think anyone would declare him above “very good”starter on a “pretty good” squad.

With all the injuries hampering his off-seasons we can have a definitive evaluation of Dre at season’s end because I know his defensive rating unfairly kills him like Klay Thompson’s.  OG definitely couldn’t pull off the late-series flurry Dre did against Miami.

Edited September 29, 2022 by benhillboy