I have to agree with this Kings fan. We look like the Harden-Westbrook Rockets

[NBASupes]

28 minutes ago, terrell said:

 

JC and Bogi for Olynk, Beasely, and Clarkson is more realistic and the salaries match..( Im hearing Utah is still interested in JC, but they dont want to include Markennen. Not sure how true that is)... Trae wont be happy losing Capela in your scenario.. And I wont either.. he and DJM just has to figure it out or maybe Murray aint the right fit.. CC fits too well with Trae..

Trae/DJM/Hunter/Olynk/CC

Clarkson/Beasley/AJ/JJ/OO

Starting lineup might lose some defense and rebounding(maybe), but The bench would get a HUGE scoring boost(it also keeps the Holidays on the bench until needed. lol).. And 2 of the 3 contracts are expiring.. 

I knew it was gonna be a tough fit offensively. Murray does most of his work inside the paint. 

What happened to the  "dribble, shoot, and pass" vision Travis used to preach about?

We have 3 guys who cant dribble, or pass(Dre,CC,JC) and 2 or 3 that cant even shoot in the starting lineup...

Schlenk is all over the place.

 

All of these pieces from Utah are trash in regards to us. Hawks need to avoid consolidation trades with a passion. 

 

Murray and Trae makes it extremely difficult to add a PG or SG that's high salary on the roster and they get too many minutes. 

So that kills the impact of a Clarkson or Beasley. 

Where our minutes are available is at the backup 3 and starting 4 spot. Center is flexible too. But guard spots aren't. 

Edited November 25, 2022 by NBASupes

[swanlee]

The team is obviously still gelling and working on things. Im happy with 11-7 and being division leaders while still working on this team with alot of new players gelling and Bogi still yet to come back.

Basically chill, we will get better but right now at least we are division leaders and its seems we will not need to climb out of a hole when we do gel.

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

26 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I recognize this. I get it. We needed this for us to be successful in the past. I’m not ignoring stats unlike my buddy Supes. 

How many rings has that won us though? Remember, it was Kev that won us game 7 to reach the ECF. It was Lou that sparked the game 5 comeback.

It was Dre that singlehandedly almost won us game 5 against Miami.

If you want different you have to do different. To get more you have to do more. Otherwise Trae can follow in Harden, Iverson, and Nash’s footsteps and retire without a ring.

When I say get others involved, yall think that means we have to get Trae off the ball. THAT is not what Im saying and we all know that doesn’t work.

Trae needs to be just as aggressive as he is when he is looking to score. He needs to attack the paint at will and get the defense moving. 

Im suggesting that he moves the ball once the defense has reacted to his initial drive. Im hoping that he forgoes scanning for the shot or the direct assist and starts hunting for the hockey assist. Seeing the play develop faster and being ahead of the defense.

I have no desire to see Trae pass the ball and stand around while Dre, JC, and DJ go iso and try to figure it out. That is not good basketball either. We don’t ever need to see that again.

Trae is option 1, the ball should be in his hands and we should work all the other options off of that. He should always play with a scoring posture because that will keep the defense honest. I don’t want him searching and scanning and dribbling the clock down, I want him hunting.

I want him attacking his defender, then the help defender, and then moving the ball as soon as he has two committed to him. That leaves more open lanes for JC and Dre to cut and get shots at the rim. Now they are confident. Now they are involved.

Can we all agree on that?

We can . . . but . . 

. . . those players you mentioned, all got their points within the flow of the game, and made shots as soon as they got open looks.  All we ask guys around Trae to do, is make at least 40% of your catch and shoot open jumpers.

People have fallen in love with AJ, because he can do just that.

 

But look at everybody else:

J. Holiday

 

Hunter

 

Collins

 

Murray

 

A. Holiday

 

Looking at this, Aaron Holiday is our best shooter this year on Catch and Shoot shots.  AJ is 2nd.  The rest of the perimeter people shoot less than 40% on catch and shoot shots.  And they shoot the shot at much more volume.

 

People simply need to make shots, if they want to see the ball more.  So by this, Aaron needs more touches, just like AJ is getting.

 

 

 

[TheNorthCydeRises]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

All of these pieces from Utah are trash in regards to us. Hawks need to avoid consolidation trades with a passion. 

 

Murray and Trae makes it extremely difficult to add a PG or SG that's high salary on the roster and they get too many minutes. 

So that kills the impact of a Clarkson or Beasley. 

Where our minutes are available is at the backup 3 and starting 4 spot. Center is flexible too. But guard spots aren't. 

 

That's why going ahead and giving AJ Griffin expanded minutes, may pay off big time in these next 3 years.  Get maximum value off of him while he's still on his rookie contract.  

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Superstars getting their teammates involved early is a universal concept that is bigger than Trae, JC, or the Hawks.

I have to challenge the validity of this statement in the modern NBA...

Who does Steph get involved??

Who does Giannis get involved?

Who does KD get involved?

Who does Embiid get Involved?

 Everybody is not Lebron.  Everybody doesn't have that need to make sure that their teammates are good before they start scoring.   I would suggest that most modern superstars go after their points and allow their gravity to make open spots for their teammates.  Hence the need to have guys who can hit open shots.   And Trae can be a huge gravity guy. 

 

 

[marco102]

28 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

We can . . . but . . 

. . . those players you mentioned, all got their points within the flow of the game, and made shots as soon as they got open looks.  All we ask guys around Trae to do, is make at least 40% of your catch and shoot open jumpers.

People have fallen in love with AJ, because he can do just that.

 

At 19 years old, this is fantastic.  Even the pull up is a fantastic number. Probably in the 75th percentile in the NBA.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Bro, I'ma do what I do and always do it and always expect Marco to be Marco, DIESEL to be Diesel and AHF to be AHF

People can change though...  I mean it's been a while since I've called you a name...   That's change.

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

4 hours ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

He's right though.

Trying to get everybody else going, and not Trae, has led us to be a below .500 team even in the past 3 years.  

But if Trae gets going, and he's able to get to that 30 point mark, the Hawks are well over .500.  And moreso this season, seeing that we're 5 - 1 when Trae scores 30 or more.

 

 

 

Expand  

I recognize this. I get it. We needed this for us to be successful in the past. I’m not ignoring stats unlike my buddy Supes. 

How many rings has that won us though? Remember, it was Kev that won us game 7 to reach the ECF. It was Lou that sparked the game 5 comeback.

It was Dre that singlehandedly almost won us game 5 against Miami.

Uhm...

If you replaced Trae with Davion Mitchell how much of this happens?

Don't talk about the freedom that these guys enjoy due to Trae's gravity as if Trae being on the court doesn't change things.  It's easy to shut down Kev, Lou, and Dre.   However, if you're focusing all of your efforts on shutting down Trae... guess who benefits?

 

[RedDawg#8]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I have to challenge the validity of this statement in the modern NBA...

Who does Steph get involved??

Who does Giannis get involved?

Who does KD get involved?

Who does Embiid get Involved?

 Everybody is not Lebron.  Everybody doesn't have that need to make sure that their teammates are good before they start scoring.   I would suggest that most modern superstars go after their points and allow their gravity to make open spots for their teammates.  Hence the need to have guys who can hit open shots.   And Trae can be a huge gravity guy. 

 

 

Steph: ball movement system, the onus isn’t on him per se, but everyone touches the ball on the Warriors. He is the biggest example of sharing the rock and trusting your teammates. Guys like Wiggins became all stars next to Steph.

Giannis: MVP player with no rings until they signed Jrue. Bud took the ball out of Giannis’ hands and let Jrue be the catalyst and Middleton develop a role as a closer. Giannis gets his within the  flow of the game and cats like Lopez and Portis eat.

KD: never won anything without Steph/Warriors, see above

Embiid: Never won anything and probably wont this season either.

Refer to Superstars with rings, who are considered greats. Not these chumps that get annointed and haven’t won anything.

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Steph: ball movement system, the onus isn’t on him per se, but everyone touches the ball on the Warriors. He is the biggest example of sharing the rock and trusting your teammates. Guys like Wiggins became all stars next to Steph.

Giannis: MVP player with no rings until they signed Jrue. Bud took the ball out of Giannis’ hands and let Jrue be the catalyst and Middleton develop a role as a closer. Giannis gets his within the  flow of the game and cats like Lopez and Portis eat.

KD: never won anything without Steph/Warriors, see above

Embiid: Never won anything and probably wont this season either.

Refer to Superstars with rings, who are considered greats. Not these chumps that get annointed and haven’t won anything.

You can't just write off the truth of the statements as....  It was the system.

If it was the system, why didn't the system force Steph to get others involved.  Why didn't the system for Giannis to get others involved.  Because whoever developed these "systems" realized that players have gravity and their gravity can create opening for others.  You ever wonder why Steph plays off ball?   I mean he can be a classical PG.   He has the handle.  He would be able to get everybody involved as that.  It's because somebody figured out that Steph can go for 50 if he chose to and everybody else can still get their points. 

This is why I call Trae a unicorn.  Nobody has ever... put up the points and assists that he puts up (maybe Harden).  I watched Trae against Sactown.. he made 33 look like nothing.  Just imagine if the others could hit shots?  We'd blow teams out.   That's what we're waiting on.  Maybe it's the spacing.  Maybe it's mechanical.  However, once we figure out the problem, I don't think there's anybody that would be able to stop us. 

 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Steph: ball movement system, the onus isn’t on him per se, but everyone touches the ball on the Warriors. He is the biggest example of sharing the rock and trusting your teammates. Guys like Wiggins became all stars next to Steph.

Giannis: MVP player with no rings until they signed Jrue. Bud took the ball out of Giannis’ hands and let Jrue be the catalyst and Middleton develop a role as a closer. Giannis gets his within the  flow of the game and cats like Lopez and Portis eat.

KD: never won anything without Steph/Warriors, see above

Embiid: Never won anything and probably wont this season either.

Refer to Superstars with rings, who are considered greats. Not these chumps that get annointed and haven’t won anything.

Moreover, it's cheap to talk about people that has won rings...

Really.  So in the Modern NBA... superstars that have won rings.  Lebron, Steph, Giannis, KD and Kawhi..

Really??  I mentioned all of them except Kawhi...  So who has Kawhi gotten invovled??

Let me predict here...

Uhm.  Uhm..   Toronto had Lowry and he took the ball out of Kawhi's hands... blah blah blah... 

Next...

 

[RedDawg#8]

2 minutes ago, Diesel said:

You can't just write off the truth of the statements as....  It was the system.

If it was the system, why didn't the system force Steph to get others involved.  Why didn't the system for Giannis to get others involved.  Because whoever developed these "systems" realized that players have gravity and their gravity can create opening for others.  You ever wonder why Steph plays off ball?   I mean he can be a classical PG.   He has the handle.  He would be able to get everybody involved as that.  It's because somebody figured out that Steph can go for 50 if he chose to and everybody else can still get their points. 

This is why I call Trae a unicorn.  Nobody has ever... put up the points and assists that he puts up (maybe Harden).  I watched Trae against Sactown.. he made 33 look like nothing.  Just imagine if the others could hit shots?  We'd blow teams out.   That's what we're waiting on.  Maybe it's the spacing.  Maybe it's mechanical.  However, once we figure out the problem, I don't think there's anybody that would be able to stop us. 

 

I’m full of delicious holiday food and beer. I can go back and forth all night long Diesel.

Don’t start with me lol

[Diesel]

1 minute ago, RedDawg#8 said:

I’m full of delicious holiday food and beer. I can go back and forth all night long Diesel.

Don’t start with me lol

[TheNorthCydeRises]

51 minutes ago, marco102 said:

At 19 years old, this is fantastic.  Even the pull up is a fantastic number. Probably in the 75th percentile in the NBA.

 

It's a very small sample size, but it is fantastic.  And we all see with his eyes just how "mature" his offensive game is.  He looks like he knows what he's doing out there, compared to JJ, who looks lost as hell at times.  AJ's offensive game is so poised.  Even more poised than Hunter's.

[Wretch]

59 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I have to challenge the validity of this statement in the modern NBA...

Who does Steph get involved??

Who does Giannis get involved?

Who does KD get involved?

Who does Embiid get Involved?

 Everybody is not Lebron.  Everybody doesn't have that need to make sure that their teammates are good before they start scoring.   I would suggest that most modern superstars go after their points and allow their gravity to make open spots for their teammates.  Hence the need to have guys who can hit open shots.   And Trae can be a huge gravity guy. 

 

 

It's not so much about directly facilitating the offense like LeBron, Magic, or Trae.  All prolific scorers have gravity.  Steph may not set guys up, he does on the pick and pop with Draymond, but the defense reacts to where he moves. Same with everyone else on that list.  Because of that gravity, a player like Middleton can camp out and wait on the ball.  He can attack the basket with less attention because help will give a Giannis a layup or if they stay home on him, a wide open three for Jrue/Lopez. 

It starts with Giannis though.  If he's just bullying into the paint and swallowing the ball, none of that happens.  You don't have to worry about Milwaukee's shooters...you just have to zone up Giannis (same with LeBron). If your modus operandi is dribble penetration, you must have shooters and you must GET the ball to the shooters. We may not have the best shooters (another story), but we have guys that can score and we live off the dribble penetration.  We need to make it easier for them to support our 1a/1b.

[Sothron]

The FO already had the "move Capela for Ayton" debate this past summer. Trae put his foot down and insisted they keep Capela. There is zero chance Capela gets traded. Capela, btw, has been easily the 2nd best Hawk throughout this season. 

No need to blame JC because they don't give him any shots. Trae and DJM trade off dribbling the air out of the ball with very little actual ball movement from side to side. 

[Diesel]

7 hours ago, Wretch said:

It's not so much about directly facilitating the offense like LeBron, Magic, or Trae.  All prolific scorers have gravity.  Steph may not set guys up, he does on the pick and pop with Draymond, but the defense reacts to where he moves. Same with everyone else on that list.  Because of that gravity, a player like Middleton can camp out and wait on the ball.  He can attack the basket with less attention because help will give a Giannis a layup or if they stay home on him, a wide open three for Jrue/Lopez. 

It starts with Giannis though.  If he's just bullying into the paint and swallowing the ball, none of that happens.  You don't have to worry about Milwaukee's shooters...you just have to zone up Giannis (same with LeBron). If your modus operandi is dribble penetration, you must have shooters and you must GET the ball to the shooters. We may not have the best shooters (another story), but we have guys that can score and we live off the dribble penetration.  We need to make it easier for them to support our 1a/1b.

I agree and is kinda what I was saying.  Point is.. for those other teams, nobody is expecting their superstar to get others involved.  They don't need to, their gravity will give them room to flourish.   Not every superstar has to be Lebron. 

 

[StonedDogs]

18 hours ago, Wretch said:

I've been watching the clips after each game.  Like, go look at some pick and pop basketball or watch a few minutes of Golden State and how they move.  I know, I know...that's a beautiful offense, with legendary shooters, and a coach who played/studied under the triangle offense.  I get it, but we don't do a lot of that.  Go look at ball/player movement videos, PNP break downs, and then go watch clips of our offense:

https://www.nba.com/stats/events?CFID=&CFPARAMS=&ContextMeasure=FGA&EndPeriod=0&EndRange=28800&GameID=0022200263&PlayerID=0&RangeType=0&Season=2022-23&SeasonType=Regular Season&StartPeriod=0&StartRange=0&TeamID=1610612737&flag=3&sct=plot&section=game

That's us every game.  It's all.....dribble, one shot.  One pass, one shot.  Dribble, dribble, dribble, shot.  We're not forcing the defense to react.  So little to no catch and shoot, and a lot of ISO into traffic.  Which only Trae and DJM are reliable at, so when they're on we're ok...when they struggle with the zone, we're not. 

Aside from guys knocking down the open shots they do get from the occasional catch and shoot, we've got to move the ball.  Otherwise, we're just playing YMCA ball, taking turns attacking the basket.

So with all of that said and a beautiful breakdown by the way? Who is the problem? 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 hour ago, StonedDogs said:

So with all of that said and a beautiful breakdown by the way? Who is the problem? 

Nate. His lack of creativity on offense is offensive.

[marco102]

19 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

Nate. His lack of creativity on offense is offensive.

The players too. AJ moves instinctively. Others just stand around. Having an NBA coach really helped his development. 

To me, if AJ is moving off ball, you can blame the other players too for not moving. The others are just used to Trae doing something to get them open shots. I hope the coaches start beating this to death in film sessions and emphasize what AJ is doing.