Premium Member Diesel Posted November 30, 2022 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, StonedDogs said: Yes Ja played the hell out the games he played. No one is taking the ECF away from Trae. And All around game Ja is better than Trae. All around game. Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close My last reply I meant with all the disrespect I could muster... So the competition before they became a pro matters... A lot... by your account. Well Let's see... Is Luka More skilled than Jordan? Jordan played in that College atmosphere that Trae came from... Oh.... How about Lebron or Kobe? Neither of them went to college. They came right out of High school... The basis of your argument is silly.. to say the least. The level of competition you faced before going pro is really meaningless. Oh... you roll your eyes at me and still doubt and attack my position. Well let me help you.. Luka isn't the only player to play overseas pro before being drafted... I can get you a whole list but this one here should help you the most... Darko. Quote A lot of the Europeans are really threes in the pros. He'll be a true low-post player. His coach is doing us a huge favor by forcing him to develop those skills now. He already has moves that remind me of (Hakeem) Olajuwon in the post. Once we get a hold of him, the sky's the limit." Darko had so much potential that Marc Stein asked NBA executives whether he should be drafted over LeBron James. No one said yes, but they did agree that Darko was good enough to be No. 2: yeah... GTFOH... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted November 30, 2022 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 11 hours ago, AHF said: He was elite. There is a reason every NBA analyst gave him his due that postseason and it isn’t because Kevin Huerter was carrying him. His scoring was effective, his passing and ball handling was the best if anyone in the playoffs, and his defense was probably the best he has been. Until he got hurt. His game when he returned hurt dropped all his shooting stats by roughly 2% for the playoffs. Probably shouldn’t ignore that. He finished the playoffs #5 in points; #3 in assists; and #10 in steals. I'm finding that you can tell [some people] until you are blue in the face and you can show [them] Historical Citation after Historical Citation and [they] ignore it and continue with the same lame argument. What is that called? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Popular Post Wretch Posted November 30, 2022 Premium Member Popular Post Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 10 hours ago, Diesel said: I'm finding that you can tell [some people] until you are blue in the face and you can show [them] Historical Citation after Historical Citation and [they] ignore it and continue with the same lame argument. What is that called? 1 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StonedDogs Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, Diesel said: My last reply I meant with all the disrespect I could muster... So the competition before they became a pro matters... A lot... by your account. Well Let's see... Is Luka More skilled than Jordan? Jordan played in that College atmosphere that Trae came from... Oh.... How about Lebron or Kobe? Neither of them went to college. They came right out of High school... The basis of your argument is silly.. to say the least. The level of competition you faced before going pro is really meaningless. Oh... you roll your eyes at me and still doubt and attack my position. Well let me help you.. Luka isn't the only player to play overseas pro before being drafted... I can get you a whole list but this one here should help you the most... Darko. Darko had so much potential that Marc Stein asked NBA executives whether he should be drafted over LeBron James. No one said yes, but they did agree that Darko was good enough to be No. 2: yeah... GTFOH... With all the disrespect you could muster? Ok sport, its just online with some guys you don't know, calm down. Its a gif. Probably would have felt disrespected if the gif were actually you. So now lets get to your points... 1. Jordan played three years of college compared to Trae one. Cant really compare college of the 80s to now. Back then the college players were well seasoned, fundamentally sound. These days its AAU ball, youtube highlights, blue checks and likeable factor. Microwave players. Jordan of the 80s could be a one and done today. Luka could have dominated in college and one and done. Trae never played in a college atmosphere like Jordan. There was nothing like Duke vs N Carolina. Trae never played in a college title game and never won one with a game winning shot on the biggest stage. Luka has won championships. Did Trae win a high school championship? A bunch of 6 footers as comp? 2. Is Luka more skilled than Jordan? Luka has been pro since he was 16. Is he better than Jordan? No one is. Is he better than Kobe? Kobe is Jordan 2.0. Is he better than Bron? Bron is Magic on steroids. The two exceptions. Generational talents. Is Luka more skilled than Trae yes he is. 16 against pros. Thats NBA players, college players and the same intl team that took redeem team down to wire. And played great against team usa in 2012. Trae will not be selected for team USA. Why do you think? 3. Why are you using Darko as your argument? Why are you comparing anyone to Lebron James? 20 yrs ago man. Lets try to stick with whats happening today. You are really triggered over there about Trae. Maybe he will get on a single knee and get you a championship ring one day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheNorthCydeRises Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 16 hours ago, bleachkit said: I'm not ready to write Trae's obituary, but he's having a brutal start to the year. His efficiency numbers are abysmal. There is no sugarcoating it. If we finish at or below .500 Nate will surerly be fired. Trae's first 13 games: Trae's last 7 games: The only thing that is below par, is the 3 point FG%. Overall FG% is drastically improved. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premium Member Diesel Posted November 30, 2022 Author Premium Member Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 hours ago, StonedDogs said: 2. Is Luka more skilled than Jordan? Luka has been pro since he was 16. Is he better than Jordan? No one is. Is he better than Kobe? Kobe is Jordan 2.0. Is he better than Bron? Bron is Magic on steroids. The two exceptions. Generational talents. Is Luka more skilled than Trae yes he is. 16 against pros. Thats NBA players, college players and the same intl team that took redeem team down to wire. And played great against team usa in 2012. Trae will not be selected for team USA. Why do you think? 3. Why are you using Darko as your argument? Why are you comparing anyone to Lebron James? 20 yrs ago man. Lets try to stick with whats happening today. You are really triggered over there about Trae. Maybe he will get on a single knee and get you a championship ring one day. This is weak sauce Stonedogs. You said... "Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close" Excuse me for reading but your mention of the type of competition they faced before becoming pros is a factor that you believe makes him more skilled than Trae. So I simply challenged the validity of that statement by offering you examples. If it were true then anybody who had a similar background as Luka should have come to the NBA more skilled than persons who only had one year of college. This is why the Darko example is so damning to your fragile assertion. Like Luka, Darko played as a pro before coming to the NBA. Like Luka, Darko won championships before coming to the NBA. Like Luka, Darko starting playing with pros at an early ages (he started playing at 14) Like Luka Darko was compared against players who only played 1 year of college. On that last point, Darko was drafted ahead of Carmelo Anthony. Anthony played 1 year at Syracuse, however, many people at the time felt that Darko's background (similar to Luka) made him a better pick than Melo. What becomes overwhelming obvious is that Background doesn't mean much of anything. BTW, the era is meaningless in this argument, it's just a deflection that you wanted to bring in.... Finally, let's get to the final point (and you will probably want to dwell here because over there is a lost argument). You say that Luka is more skilled than Trae. I have to challenge that too. Last year when all the games had been played, Trae had more assists, more points, and a better efficiency than Luka. It was slight but it was better. Here's the thing.. Luka is 6'7" 230 lbs. Trae is 6'1", 162 lbs... Trae just led the league in points and assists at 6'1" 162 lbs... Somebody his size is not even supposed to be in the league. Do you know how Dominant a player Trae would be if he were 6'7" 230 lbs?? Consider his game... He doesn't play like Spud Webb or Mugsy.. who were guys his size. His skillset is off the damn chart. Luka has skills but if Luka were 6'1" 162, he would be nothing. It sounds nice to say that he's more skilled than Trae but Trae probably has three times the skill of Luka because he has to make up for the lack of size. And even with that... More points, More assists and better efficiency (Based on Last years stats). Yeah.. like I said, Weak sauce. BTW, when I said the most disrespect I could muster... I wasn't talking about disrespect towards you... I don't even know you. I was talking about disrespect towards that weak position that you took. I can't respect it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 13 hours ago, StonedDogs said: Yes Ja played the hell out the games he played. No one is taking the ECF away from Trae. And All around game Ja is better than Trae. All around game. Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close Ja is clearly the better rebounder. I'll also stipulate that Ja has been better at than Trae on defense where is one of Memphis' weakest defenders so the edge is fairly slim. Scoring: 2020-21 Ja 19.1 ppg on .537% TS% vs Trae 25.3 ppg on .589% TS% 2021-22 Ja 27.4 ppg on .575% TS% vs Trae 28.4 ppg on .603% TS% Passing 2020-21 Ja 7.4 appg on 33.5% AST% vs Trae 9.4 apg on 45.5% AST% 2021-22 Ja 6.7 apg on 34.1% AST% vs Trae 9.7 apg on 46.7% AST% Ball Protection - Ratio AST% to TO% 2020-21 Ja 2.18 vs Trae 2.80 2021-22 Ja 2.70 vs Trae 3.22 I think we can all agree that Ja has started this season hotter than Trae but his scoring this season is still inferior to what Trae has done the last 3 years (.570% TS% this season for Ja vs Trae .595%, .589%, .603% TS%). 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators macdaddy Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 What i've seen of Luka and Ja on the defensive end has not been good at all. yeah they have some advantages over Trae but saying they are good defenders is a stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 minute ago, macdaddy said: What i've seen of Luka and Ja on the defensive end has not been good at all. yeah they have some advantages over Trae but saying they are good defenders is a stretch. They clearly aren't good defenders. I don't think anyone is claiming they are. If so, well that is an interesting take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 With Ja and Trae, let's call up the advanced metrics as well: Trae has the edge in Win Shares and Win Shares per 48 for every full season of their career Trae has the edge in PER for every full season of their career Trae has the edge in Value Over Replacement Player every full season of their career Trae has the edge in 2 out of 3 seasons in BPM Trae has the edge in WAR every full season of their career I just don't see how anyone makes the case in good faith that Ja has proven to be a better overall player than Trae. What Ja is best at (scoring and passing) Trae is better. Ja can chip in more with his rebounding but that doesn't make up the gap. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators macdaddy Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, AHF said: They clearly aren't good defenders. I don't think anyone is claiming they are. If so, well that is an interesting take. In the context of the argument you see it all the time. "why is Luka/Ja better than Trae? Defense". If you're the worst defender on the floor then don't give me that. I understand some folks think Trae is an historic liability but i don't think the defensive impact, positive or negative, from these guys is that far off. And I imagine there are some bogus defensive metrics coming my way in 3,2....... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 2 minutes ago, macdaddy said: In the context of the argument you see it all the time. "why is Luka/Ja better than Trae? Defense". If you're the worst defender on the floor then don't give me that. I understand some folks think Trae is an historic liability but i don't think the defensive impact, positive or negative, from these guys is that far off. And I imagine there are some bogus defensive metrics coming my way in 3,2....... All of them are negative by defensive metrics over the last 3 years. They all have to be hidden on D. I can get my head around someone saying that the difference in defense and rebounding makes Luka better than Trae. Don't have to agree but I get the logic. I don't follow any argument saying Ja is at Trae's level or better if someone is trying to base that on any type of objective information. Trae and Luka have been clearly better than Ja career to date. Ja has gotten off hot this season and Trae has started cold. Need a lot more than that to overcome 3 full seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bleachkit Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 3 minutes ago, AHF said: All of them are negative by defensive metrics over the last 3 years. They all have to be hidden on D. I can get my head around someone saying that the difference in defense and rebounding makes Luka better than Trae. Don't have to agree but I get the logic. I don't follow any argument saying Ja is at Trae's level or better if someone is trying to base that on any type of objective information. Trae and Luka have been clearly better than Ja career to date. Ja has gotten off hot this season and Trae has started cold. Need a lot more than that to overcome 3 full seasons. Luka is fourth in the NBA in average steals per game at 1.8. He has improved on that end. But defensive metrics are difficult to quantify of course. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators AHF Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 6 minutes ago, bleachkit said: Luka is fourth in the NBA in average steals per game at 1.8. He has improved on that end. But defensive metrics are difficult to quantify of course. I view Luka as the best of the three by a significant margin. His size makes it easier for him to contribute. He has a negative defensive RAPTOR this season despite the rebounding and steals, though, which just indicates his weaknesses on that side of the ball are still there. I agree with you that defensive metrics stink compared to their offensive counterparts. So much of defense is tough to quantify other than rebounds, steals and blocks and certain of the metrics (looking at your DRTG) are highly team dependent making them almost inevitably apples to oranges comparisons. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators macdaddy Posted November 30, 2022 Moderators Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 12 minutes ago, AHF said: I view Luka as the best of the three by a significant margin. His size makes it easier for him to contribute. He has a negative defensive RAPTOR this season despite the rebounding and steals, though, which just indicates his weaknesses on that side of the ball are still there. I agree with you that defensive metrics stink compared to their offensive counterparts. So much of defense is tough to quantify other than rebounds, steals and blocks and certain of the metrics (looking at your DRTG) are highly team dependent making them almost inevitably apples to oranges comparisons. I'd make the case that defensive rebounding numbers are the worst stat in basketball. You saw this for Harden for years and you see it on the Mavs. Uncontested defensive rebounds everyone runs away from the ball so these guys can try for triple doubles. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 8 hours ago, StonedDogs said: With all the disrespect you could muster? Ok sport, its just online with some guys you don't know, calm down. Its a gif. Probably would have felt disrespected if the gif were actually you. So now lets get to your points... 1. Jordan played three years of college compared to Trae one. Cant really compare college of the 80s to now. Back then the college players were well seasoned, fundamentally sound. These days its AAU ball, youtube highlights, blue checks and likeable factor. Microwave players. Jordan of the 80s could be a one and done today. Luka could have dominated in college and one and done. Trae never played in a college atmosphere like Jordan. There was nothing like Duke vs N Carolina. Trae never played in a college title game and never won one with a game winning shot on the biggest stage. Luka has won championships. Did Trae win a high school championship? A bunch of 6 footers as comp? 2. Is Luka more skilled than Jordan? Luka has been pro since he was 16. Is he better than Jordan? No one is. Is he better than Kobe? Kobe is Jordan 2.0. Is he better than Bron? Bron is Magic on steroids. The two exceptions. Generational talents. Is Luka more skilled than Trae yes he is. 16 against pros. Thats NBA players, college players and the same intl team that took redeem team down to wire. And played great against team usa in 2012. Trae will not be selected for team USA. Why do you think? 3. Why are you using Darko as your argument? Why are you comparing anyone to Lebron James? 20 yrs ago man. Lets try to stick with whats happening today. You are really triggered over there about Trae. Maybe he will get on a single knee and get you a championship ring one day. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StonedDogs Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 4 hours ago, Diesel said: This is weak sauce Stonedogs. You said... "Luka is more skilled. He played overseas pro. Trae had one year of college. Competition is not even close" Excuse me for reading but your mention of the type of competition they faced before becoming pros is a factor that you believe makes him more skilled than Trae. So I simply challenged the validity of that statement by offering you examples. If it were true then anybody who had a similar background as Luka should have come to the NBA more skilled than persons who only had one year of college. This is why the Darko example is so damning to your fragile assertion. Like Luka, Darko played as a pro before coming to the NBA. Like Luka, Darko won championships before coming to the NBA. Like Luka, Darko starting playing with pros at an early ages (he started playing at 14) Like Luka Darko was compared against players who only played 1 year of college. On that last point, Darko was drafted ahead of Carmelo Anthony. Anthony played 1 year at Syracuse, however, many people at the time felt that Darko's background (similar to Luka) made him a better pick than Melo. What becomes overwhelming obvious is that Background doesn't mean much of anything. BTW, the era is meaningless in this argument, it's just a deflection that you wanted to bring in.... Finally, let's get to the final point (and you will probably want to dwell here because over there is a lost argument). You say that Luka is more skilled than Trae. I have to challenge that too. Last year when all the games had been played, Trae had more assists, more points, and a better efficiency than Luka. It was slight but it was better. Here's the thing.. Luka is 6'7" 230 lbs. Trae is 6'1", 162 lbs... Trae just led the league in points and assists at 6'1" 162 lbs... Somebody his size is not even supposed to be in the league. Do you know how Dominant a player Trae would be if he were 6'7" 230 lbs?? Consider his game... He doesn't play like Spud Webb or Mugsy.. who were guys his size. His skillset is off the damn chart. Luka has skills but if Luka were 6'1" 162, he would be nothing. It sounds nice to say that he's more skilled than Trae but Trae probably has three times the skill of Luka because he has to make up for the lack of size. And even with that... More points, More assists and better efficiency (Based on Last years stats). Yeah.. like I said, Weak sauce. BTW, when I said the most disrespect I could muster... I wasn't talking about disrespect towards you... I don't even know you. I was talking about disrespect towards that weak position that you took. I can't respect it. I dont know why you keep using a player 20 years ago. Luka was every bit of the hype. He was overseas Lebron James. He lived up to his hype. Luka is not 160lbs and 6'1" so no need for the "but but but" hypothetical. He's 6'7", can shake and bake just like Trae, can shoot better than Trae. Can pass just like Trae, has a floater too, can post up, something Trae cannot do, Luka has more creativity around the rim. Both of their shot selection could be better, but Luka skillset is better overall. Yes, playing overseas atcthe age of 15 and 16 pro TODAY is extremely beneficial than playing in Nike Summits, AAU games and high school games. Trae is a more talented Steve Nash bud. Nothing wrong with that, but having him as your leading piece to build around? No. You have to equip with with a Durant and top 3 center to talk rings. IMO I dont even care for Luka but I'd build around him, Ja, SGA, Garland. I can guarantee coach Bud didn't want to rebuild around Trae. Dont give me that whole he didn't want to rebuild. No, he didn't want that situation. Trae will have a revolving door of coaches and interims Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud2nique Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 Luka is a fat disgusting sloppy pig man. I know this isn’t adding a whole lot to the debate but he’s just a sloppy disgusting f&ck. He looks like he’s constantly drooling as he talks. Slow pale piece of dirt. And Ja, is a rugrat. This is a D+ post but hey, I had some ish to get off my mind. Heres how we gon do dis… F!CK LUKA… F!CK JA And if you wanna be down with baby Tyrese Haliburton (besides Gramps) then F u too! -Pac 1 minute ago, StonedDogs said: This is my fav or all your posts so far. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StonedDogs Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 1 hour ago, AHF said: Ja is clearly the better rebounder. I'll also stipulate that Ja has been better at than Trae on defense where is one of Memphis' weakest defenders so the edge is fairly slim. Scoring: 2020-21 Ja 19.1 ppg on .537% TS% vs Trae 25.3 ppg on .589% TS% 2021-22 Ja 27.4 ppg on .575% TS% vs Trae 28.4 ppg on .603% TS% Passing 2020-21 Ja 7.4 appg on 33.5% AST% vs Trae 9.4 apg on 45.5% AST% 2021-22 Ja 6.7 apg on 34.1% AST% vs Trae 9.7 apg on 46.7% AST% Ball Protection - Ratio AST% to TO% 2020-21 Ja 2.18 vs Trae 2.80 2021-22 Ja 2.70 vs Trae 3.22 I think we can all agree that Ja has started this season hotter than Trae but his scoring this season is still inferior to what Trae has done the last 3 years (.570% TS% this season for Ja vs Trae .595%, .589%, .603% TS%). Not a fair comparison when it comes to scoring. Ja can avg 30. He has a different coach and different cast. In his system he doesn't need to avg Trae numbers nor put up Trae shot attempt numbers. Memphis has JJJ, Bane, B Clarke, Tyus...They have a good squad where everyone knows their roles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StonedDogs Posted November 30, 2022 Report Share Posted November 30, 2022 19 minutes ago, Spud2nique said: Luka is a fat disgusting sloppy pig man. I know this isn’t adding a whole lot to the debate but he’s just a sloppy disgusting f&ck. He looks like he’s constantly drooling as he talks. Slow pale piece of dirt. And Ja, is a rugrat. This is a D+ post but hey, I had some ish to get off my mind. Heres how we gon do dis… F!CK LUKA… F!CK JA And if you wanna be down with baby Tyrese Haliburton (besides Gramps) then F u too! -Pac This is my fav or all your posts so far. So we're talking about appearances now? Cmon we're Hawks fans. Our class has come down to players appearances after running out of facts? Outside of Hawks bubble there is a country of people with a photo of a lollipop and hair strands on it with a caption of our point guard. Thats classless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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