Making the case for a Collins & KP Frontcourt

[JeffS17]

3 minutes ago, Final_quest said:

If Washington is rebuilding why would they take on JC and Clint instead of letting KP expire?  I guess they would look to part with one or both via trade, or this would have to be a multi-team deal.  

No idea, not speaking to the realistic possibility -- more just what would make sense for us to have as outgoing in that scenario.  I'll be honest I don't know what the Wiz are doing, and I'm not even sure they know what they're doing.

[JTB]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

The front office is right because OO is not a PF.   I don't care how many times it's posted here... he's not a PF.   He loses his best advantage being moved to PF.   Brown and Tatum and White and Brogdon had a field day with OO in the playoffs.   Oh.. we were very quiet about it but even though OO got blocks,  they were styling on him.  His speed becomes meaningless if he moves to PF..

BUT... With Kp here, between KP and OO we don't have to call them anything. Just don't play a switching defense. 

 

 

You’re joking right ????

what is Collins then? Because he got beat off the dribble consistently by Robert Williams who’s a center!

Tatum ain’t no damn PF he’s a 6’10 SF who can play at PF in this small ball era. You judging OO based on guarding a guys who aren’t true 4s!

When you ask OO to guard a true 4 like Giannis then you see the impact. Tatum , Browns of the nba world are Hunter and Beys assignment.

good lawwwdddd I hope the front office don’t think like you. If they do it’s no wonder we are ass defensively.

I see what you mean @NBASupes

[Diesel]

4 hours ago, JTB said:

You’re joking right ????

what is Collins then? Because he got beat off the dribble consistently by Robert Williams who’s a center!

Tatum ain’t no damn PF he’s a 6’10 SF who can play at PF in this small ball era. You judging OO based on guarding a guys who aren’t true 4s!

When you ask OO to guard a true 4 like Giannis then you see the impact. Tatum , Browns of the nba world are Hunter and Beys assignment.

good lawwwdddd I hope the front office don’t think like you. If they do it’s no wonder we are ass defensively.

I see what you mean @NBASupes

What do you think OO will see?

There's only one Giannis. 

He will see Tatum.  Butler.  Grant.  Randle.  Sabonis. Durant. George.  Siakim...

And in many of those cases, he will be run...

On top of that.. NO 3 pt shot.   It may work with KP because KP can be the 4.. but OO is not a 4. 

 

[Phunkabilly]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

What do you think OO will see?

There's only one Giannis. 

He will see Tatum.  Butler.  Grant.  Randle.  Sabonis. Durant. George.  Siakim...

And in many of those cases, he will be run...

On top of that.. NO 3 pt shot.   It may work with KP because KP can be the 4.. but OO is not a 4. 

 

OO shot 45% from 3 in 2023.  You better put some respect on his name!!   

[JTB]

13 hours ago, ShooterSays said:

I'm a believer in "position-less basketball." But if we're going to put labels on them, I think KP is your 4 and OO your 5 on offense. On defense, OO is your 4 and KP is your 5.

I agree with this. If we put labels on them it switches offensively and defensively for sure.

13 hours ago, NBASupes said:

Not a fan. KP needs real touches. Since his primary value is offense, he's just not a good fit. If there was a blended player of Bertrans and KP, that player would be a perfect fit offensively but he would have never been traded from Dallas if that player existed. He just needs too many real touches. He would get less here than in DAL and they sold him at a lost.

That’s interesting…I see KP getting plenty of touches especially catch and shoot. He will also get some isolation in 1 on 1 matchups. I’m sure Trae and DJ won’t mind that as long as he’s scoring buckets during those times.

With Synder here I believe we will see Trae take another level offensively from a mental standpoint more than anything. If KP can go get a bucket here and there like Trae and Murray can, as the franchise player in Trae you have to appreciate that.

I hear ya though cause you’re comparing the Luka / Mavs situation to what could happen with Trae if we had the chance to get KP…but personally I think Luka wasn't mature enough during his time with KP and Brunson. Luka the GM is terrible.

[JTB]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

What do you think OO will see?

There's only one Giannis. 

He will see Tatum.  Butler.  Grant.  Randle.  Sabonis. Durant. George.  Siakim...

And in many of those cases, he will be run...

On top of that.. NO 3 pt shot.   It may work with KP because KP can be the 4.. but OO is not a 4. 

 

OO will matchup defensively with other 4s. Offensively yes he’d have to play the “rim runner” aka the 5 in this era I guess…..But you are listing guys who are not full time 4s!

Like Butler for example, butler is not the heats full time 4! Those minutes are split between Caleb Martin and Kevin Love….Butler played spot minutes at the 4. Then you have Sabonis listed at the 4 for the kings. Sabonis is their primary 5 in Sacramento. Keegan Murray is the primary 4 for Sac. You also have George as a 4 who I’m guessing that you are referencing Paul George but that’s not true either. Clippers use Marcus Morris and Batum at 4 primarily. Paul George is the starting 2 for the Clips when he’s healthy and playing. 
 

On Tatum …this one is true Tatum is the primary 4 for Boston but Every team has issues guarding Tatum at the 4 because dude is 6’10 and moves like a guard offensively. Tatum situation is different and extremely unlikely. That’s a luxury mismatch Boston is purposely throwing out there vs the whole league. Synder stopped using his Bigs (JC and OO) to guard Tatum and started using actual SFs Hunter and Bey in effort to contain Tatum as the series went on. The Celtics are tough! They have a mixture of lineups they can throw at you depending on the situation. For example in the series vs Philly Robert Williams is playing more or will be cause of Embiid. Horford is at the 4 and Tatum drops to the 3…..you just have to understand that most nba teams don’t have this versatility defensively to keep up with everything the Cs can throw at you. It’s not just a Hawks issue.

OO has defended Randle, Giannis, Siakam true 4s way better than JC has ever done here. Collins is a punching bag vs these more physical 4s.

You just have something against OO and I’m not sure what it is so we can agree to disagree. Also I don’t know where you are pulling your data from on who’s playing 4 for these teams but please share. I use multiple but find www.lineups.com to amongst the most commonly used.

 

Last, I already told you this and it’s not something you need to agree on …. I’m giving my personal belief and I believe your true position is what you best defend simple as that. OO is versatile but he defends true 4s better than he can defend true 5s strictly due to size limitations.

Offensively I am not calling OO a 4. In fact in this era we should not use offense to judge a player’s true position because the traditional sense of nba positions offensively just don’t exist anymore. We have people calling Luka a point guard just because he dominates the ball and can pass but we all know Luka can’t guard 1s or really 2s…we got folks that say curry isn’t really a point guard he’s a shooting guard but we all know curry can only defend 1 position which is point guard.

 

I don’t need reminders that OO can’t shoot …I know he can’t shoot but he can guard 4s at higher level than he can defend 5s……offensively he’d have to play a rim runner role but with KP that would be fine since KP can shoot it like a guard can.

[djjob23]

It’s time to make the roster more versatile so we aren’t as predictable. CC and OO are too redundant. KP fills a lot of holes we have in our roster and compliments JC and OO beautifully. 

Additionally, now that we have a better coach, I think we need to give players with stunted development (Hunter, JJ, AJ) this offseason to show our new personnel how much they can improve. Having said this, I think Hunter and Bey are somewhat redundant, but Bey has a better motor than Hunter (although Hunter has better tools). To me, Hunter is just coasting til his next pay day (does he even like basketball?). This team needs a defensive minded “dawg” at the 3 that plays with heart on both sides of the court and tries to do anything to win. If neither can fill this role, then Tari Eason would be a wonderful fit for us (plays with a chip on his shoulder and wants to be a hall of famer).

KP and Tari Eason would be my 2 main targets this offseason (with CC and Hunter being replaced), but if we added any big stretch 5 and 2-way 3-4 with heart (both starting caliber) to this roster, I’d be a happy camper.  

[Wretch]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:38 AM, ShooterSays said:

I'm 100% onboard the KP to ATL train and am glad someone else finally is LOL

I think the pairing needs to be KP / OO though. KP is a much more consistent and versatile scorer than JC. Both OO and KP are 2 guys who could potentially be top 10 in blocks.

Also, I think JC would be needed for the salary match in a trade.

Yeah, I've been quietly eyeballing him for awhile now as well.  I'm a little worried about his injury history and what his salary would look like given a successful stint with us, but I'm on board.

[hylndr11]

Kp with oo is a nightmare on defense they both need to be inside.  Kp has his own set of issues primarily guarding off ball at all and guarding the perimeter in general, great inside defender though although he needs more effort on rebounds.  If John could get his shot back somewhat and keep improving as a defender he would be a nice fit with kp

Edited May 4, 2023 by hylndr11

[Diesel]

13 hours ago, JTB said:

OO will matchup defensively with other 4s. Offensively yes he’d have to play the “rim runner” aka the 5 in this era I guess…..But you are listing guys who are not full time 4s!

Like Butler for example, butler is not the heats full time 4! Those minutes are split between Caleb Martin and Kevin Love….Butler played spot minutes at the 4. Then you have Sabonis listed at the 4 for the kings. Sabonis is their primary 5 in Sacramento. Keegan Murray is the primary 4 for Sac. You also have George as a 4 who I’m guessing that you are referencing Paul George but that’s not true either. Clippers use Marcus Morris and Batum at 4 primarily. Paul George is the starting 2 for the Clips when he’s healthy and playing. 
 

On Tatum …this one is true Tatum is the primary 4 for Boston but Every team has issues guarding Tatum at the 4 because dude is 6’10 and moves like a guard offensively. Tatum situation is different and extremely unlikely. That’s a luxury mismatch Boston is purposely throwing out there vs the whole league. Synder stopped using his Bigs (JC and OO) to guard Tatum and started using actual SFs Hunter and Bey in effort to contain Tatum as the series went on. The Celtics are tough! They have a mixture of lineups they can throw at you depending on the situation. For example in the series vs Philly Robert Williams is playing more or will be cause of Embiid. Horford is at the 4 and Tatum drops to the 3…..you just have to understand that most nba teams don’t have this versatility defensively to keep up with everything the Cs can throw at you. It’s not just a Hawks issue.

OO has defended Randle, Giannis, Siakam true 4s way better than JC has ever done here. Collins is a punching bag vs these more physical 4s.

You just have something against OO and I’m not sure what it is so we can agree to disagree. Also I don’t know where you are pulling your data from on who’s playing 4 for these teams but please share. I use multiple but find www.lineups.com to amongst the most commonly used.

 

Last, I already told you this and it’s not something you need to agree on …. I’m giving my personal belief and I believe your true position is what you best defend simple as that. OO is versatile but he defends true 4s better than he can defend true 5s strictly due to size limitations.

Offensively I am not calling OO a 4. In fact in this era we should not use offense to judge a player’s true position because the traditional sense of nba positions offensively just don’t exist anymore. We have people calling Luka a point guard just because he dominates the ball and can pass but we all know Luka can’t guard 1s or really 2s…we got folks that say curry isn’t really a point guard he’s a shooting guard but we all know curry can only defend 1 position which is point guard.

 

I don’t need reminders that OO can’t shoot …I know he can’t shoot but he can guard 4s at higher level than he can defend 5s……offensively he’d have to play a rim runner role but with KP that would be fine since KP can shoot it like a guard can.

Would you be saying OO for 4 if we were not definitely bringing in a bonafide 5?

Be Honest. 

Let's say... somehow..  Minny called us and said...

We'll give you Antman for DJ and JC.

No question about it... we're doing the damn deal.

After the deal is done...

Is OO your PF?

Clint, OO, Hunter, Antman and Trae....

is that your lineup?

 

 

[djjob23]

Great teams could care less about a player’s “position”. It’s about making mismatches to give your team a better chance to win the game. Most if not all teams have a 5 that can shoot the 3 (not us) and at least an 7 footer on their roster (not us). Not having these options seemed to have limited us in certain situations and made us more predictable. It’s like starting a chess game without your knights. If you don’t have versatility, then you’re less competitive.

KP would bring a lot more strengths to our current squad than negatives. If not KP, then we should still look for a big stretch 5 that gives us a spacing option. Players like Jokic, Embiid, Giannis, Markkanen, KAT, Nurkic, Myles Turner and Brook Lopez could be replacement starters, but are either not available, expensive, or lack D. Potential bench options could be Mo Bamba, Pokusevski, or Aldama. Out of these other options, I could see either Myles Turner, Nurkic, or Bamba as possible other options.

Yes, we could look at bringing in 2 other players that provide us these 2 options, but I’d rather kill 2 birds with one stone and gamble on KP (if we can get him) as his injury history/salary should make his trade value lower. Having KP would give us the option of having a more versatile 3 starter rotation in the frontcourt than we currently have.

[JTB]

3 hours ago, Diesel said:

Would you be saying OO for 4 if we were not definitely bringing in a bonafide 5?

Be Honest. 

Let's say... somehow..  Minny called us and said...

We'll give you Antman for DJ and JC.

No question about it... we're doing the damn deal.

After the deal is done...

Is OO your PF?

Clint, OO, Hunter, Antman and Trae....

is that your lineup?

 

 

I’ll play this game…OO is still the 4 in this scenario because he’s way better at perimeter defending than capela and overall OO can guard 4s better than capela and capela can guard 5s better …..but offensively clearly this wouldnt be beneficial since there’s not enough spacing in this lineup or passers outside of Trae.

This scenario overall would just be a cavs like situation with Mobley and Jarrett this season ….it may get us the number 1 defense (Cavs finished 1st defensively ) but there wouldn’t be any spacing to truly win important games or move through the playoffs (cavs finished as the worst offensive team in the playoffs this year)

 

OO needs a shooting 5 next to him to take full advantage of current skill set. You could put what you consider a shooting 4 next to him but the issue with playing OO at the 5 full time is length and size. It’s not OOs fault he doesn’t possess the size needed for every center matchup . So putting him next to 7’3 KP or 7 foot Towns  or 7’1 Ayton just makes sense for OO.