Can Hunter Compete??

[Diesel]

I was thinking about the message conveyed by how we played SL basketball.  Did you get the message?  The message was that we would put up more threes and our guards and wings will rebound more. 

 

Look at the attempts.     Compared to last years....

 

This goes with the Quin messaging...

Quote

Sometimes, the obvious is not so obvious as Atlanta Hawks star Trae Young, likely unintentionally, let on after the loss to the Memphis Grizzlies.

“We got to probably shoot a little bit more threes when we’re open instead of just waiting on the closeout,” Young said

 

But with that comes New opportunities.   

Hunter has been sitting pretty in the starting 3 spot since he's been a hawk.   My feeling on the matter is that IF NOTHING CHANGES the only two guys who are cemented as starters are Trae and DJ.   Everybody else is in a battle...  Who is in that Battle:

 

1.  Clint vs. OO.   Some people are in a hurry to get OO to the starting position even though he doesn't do anything better than Clint except hit bunnies. 

2.   JJ vs. Bey vs. DHunter vs. Bogi vs. AJG.   I'm already hearing rumblings of Bogi/Bey starting.   Or would it be Hunter/Bey or Hunter/JJ.  Right now, I think Defense is on the backburner.   I don't think Defense will keep an impactless player on the court for 30 minutes a game if there's somebody playing behind him that can score better. 

A lot of Hawks fans want some great trade to happen to clear up the dollybrook.  However, this is a dollybrook.  Bey is looking for a contract and of the 5 mentioned, he has the best chance to be the PF type because he's physical and he can shoot the three ball.   JJ has yet to show that he is even good at defense and his three point shooting was terrible.   AJG can compete for the 3 but he had a major slump during the second half of the season.  Bey plays good offense and is physical but he has to understand the Xs and Os of defense.   Bogi is the Captain of the serbian team now... He's the most experience and he's really good at the 2 and maybe 3 position.   That leaves Hunter.   Hunter has to show something.   He does a little bit of everything but he's not elite or really good at none of them. 

Also, DJ has to tighten up his defense. 

 

 

 

[Phunkabilly]

I gotta ask... what in the world is a "dollybrook"?

[shakes]

19 minutes ago, Diesel said:

 

 

 

A lot of Hawks fans want some great trade to happen to clear up the dollybrook.  However, this is a dollybrook. 

 

 

 

Spelled it wrong - check

used it incorrectly - double check

 

[RedDawg#8]

I’ve seen JJ in 1v1 on the perimeter vs Lebron and Zion rip these guys clean. I’ve seen him play free safety and pick off skip passes for breakaway dunks.

At some point the narrative that he hasn’t shown anything on defense needs to chill. Is he elite defensively? No, not by a mile, but he has shown a vast improvement on that end the more live reps he has gotten.

He has a stronger base than JC which allows him to actually take advantage of his frame. And he has an explosive first step, almost like a wing, to where he can jump the passing lane off the ball. I don’t know if he will be a great rim protector but with his size and vertical he can at least be a deterrent. His potential on that end of the court is high as long as his BBIQ continues to improve.

[RedDawg#8]

Regarding Dre, if he had Bey’s aggression he would be a beast.

I think having a coach who specializes in development will do wonders for him. I keep thinking about what Quinn did for DMC, and imagine with Dre’s natural ability what Quinn may unlock for him. He is a lightbulb moment away from being OG Anonuby or PHX Mikal Bridges .

[AHF]

3 minutes ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Regarding Dre, if he had Bey’s aggression he would be a beast.

I think having a coach who specializes in development will do wonders for him. I keep thinking about what Quinn did for DMC, and imagine with Dre’s natural ability what Quinn may unlock for him. He is a lightbulb moment away from being OG Anonuby or PHX Mikal Bridges .

Bear in mind, DMC did almost exactly the same production on a per minute in Utah that he did in Atlanta.  He improved his 3pt shot but there wasn't some grand transformation.  On Dre, I think you may be understating the gap in production between Dre and Mikal Bridges in Phoenix.

53 minutes ago, Diesel said:

1.  Clint vs. OO.   Some people are in a hurry to get OO to the starting position even though he doesn't do anything better than Clint except hit bunnies. 

Ummmm.....what?  

OO showed a 3pt shot last year under Quin.  I think it is safe to say that we should expect more perimeter shooting from OO under Snyder.

OO can hit free throws. 

OO has the quickness to keep up with perimeter oriented players meaning he is effective defending even beyond the 3pt line and can switch extremely effectively even on more perimeter focused players allowing for schemes that you can't run with CC. 

On a per minute basis, OO generated 33% more assists, >77% more steals, and 31% more blocks than OO last year.

Now CC has his own strengths.  He is a bit larger, he is definitely the better rebounder, and Trae has shown more trust in him as a roll man.  But saying he does nothing better than CC but hit his bunnies is crazy.  (Although you are correct that OO has been better on shots near the rim.)

[swanlee]

He needs to be more agressive and stay healthy. I'm not sure he does either so I'm not very confident in him. Seems he is what he is at this point. 

[RedDawg#8]

45 minutes ago, AHF said:

Bear in mind, DMC did almost exactly the same production on a per minute in Utah that he did in Atlanta.  He improved his 3pt shot but there wasn't some grand transformation.  On Dre, I think you may be understating the gap in production between Dre and Mikal Bridges in Phoenix.

Counting stats per minute, sure, but the reason he wasn’t getting those minutes on a mediocre Utah team was because he was a liability on offense. He was strictly defense and energy.

DMC went from a league minimum player before us, to netting a 4 yr 58 mil contract after us. His value skyrocketed in Atlanta as he went from a journeyman junkyard dog to, at that time, the prototypical 3&D SF that every team was looking for.

Quinn fixed his footwork which unlocked his catch and shoot potential. Then, in his 2nd season with us, you saw him start to attack off the dribble which he never really did before.

For a guy who came in to the league as an older player (23) and was already (27) when he got to Atlanta, that kind of evolution in his game is pretty significant.

[RedDawg#8]

38 minutes ago, swanlee said:

He needs to be more agressive and stay healthy. I'm not sure he does either so I'm not very confident in him. Seems he is what he is at this point. 

I understand this thinking but at the same time, I have to consider that Dre’s on court peak came pre injury under Lloyd Pierce. By the time he was healthy enough to play again, Nate was the HC and we were a playoff team that was not focused on on court development. I don’t know that Dre ever got the same opportunities under Nate that he did with LP. He most definitely plateaued from then until now. 

What if a new coaching staff and development focus means he gets a handful of extra touches and plays ran for him per game? He is 2 made FG per game from being a 20 ppg scorer. That’s not impossible.

Edited July 27, 2023 by RedDawg#8

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Regarding Dre, if he had Bey’s aggression he would be a beast.

I think having a coach who specializes in development will do wonders for him. I keep thinking about what Quinn did for DMC, and imagine with Dre’s natural ability what Quinn may unlock for him. He is a lightbulb moment away from being OG Anonuby or PHX Mikal Bridges .

I don't think shouldve couldve wouldve will keep Bey on the court. 

  Dre is indicative of all of those guys who should be but aint right now...  DeMarr and Marvin included. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

18 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I don't think shouldve couldve wouldve will keep Bey on the court. 

  Dre is indicative of all of those guys who should be but aint right now...  DeMarr and Marvin included. 

 

If Dre is on the roster come opening day, he will get every opportunity to get on the court and produce. Doesn’t matter what any of us think about him. He may not be special, but he is the most solid option we have at either forward position right now. 

Best to get used to him staying in the starting lineup. 

[JayBirdHawk]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

1.  Clint vs. OO.   Some people are in a hurry to get OO to the starting position even though he doesn't do anything better than Clint except hit bunnies. 

Not so fast! Clint can't do this:

 

 

[Diesel]

5 hours ago, AHF said:

Ummmm.....what?  

OO showed a 3pt shot last year under Quin.  I think it is safe to say that we should expect more perimeter shooting from OO under Snyder.

OO can hit free throws. 

OO has the quickness to keep up with perimeter oriented players meaning he is effective defending even beyond the 3pt line and can switch extremely effectively even on more perimeter focused players allowing for schemes that you can't run with CC. 

On a per minute basis, OO generated 33% more assists, >77% more steals, and 31% more blocks than OO last year.

Now CC has his own strengths.  He is a bit larger, he is definitely the better rebounder, and Trae has shown more trust in him as a roll man.  But saying he does nothing better than CC but hit his bunnies is crazy.  (Although you are correct that OO has been better on shots near the rim.)

• OO can hit a 3 pter but he's not a 3 pt shooter. He hit what..  3 for the season?   We can't begin to make a case for using him as a decoy or even as a 3 pt specialist. 
• Yes.   OO can hit free throws. 
• Clint should never be on the perimeter.   It doesn't make sense to have your best rim protector on the perimeter.   Moreover, without Big Johnny, we won't have the luxury of sending our C out to chase 2 and 3s on the perimeter. 
• I don't want my 5 passing unless his name is Embiid or Jokic.   Those two are made different. 
• Trae trust CC to roll because CC is the best in the game at it.   OO may get to be as good one day but he has a long way to go. 

 

[RedDawg#8]

8 hours ago, Diesel said:

 

• I don't want my 5 passing unless his name is Embiid or Jokic.   Those two are made different. 

 

So no Bam or Sabonis ? Heck KAT is a better passer than Embiid. Then you have guys like Vucevic and Horford that are trustworthy passers. 

[JayBirdHawk]

9 hours ago, Diesel said:

• OO can hit a 3 pter but he's not a 3 pt shooter. He hit what..  3 for the season?   We can't begin to make a case for using him as a decoy or even as a 3 pt specialist. 
• Yes.   OO can hit free throws. 
• Clint should never be on the perimeter.   It doesn't make sense to have your best rim protector on the perimeter.   Moreover, without Big Johnny, we won't have the luxury of sending our C out to chase 2 and 3s on the perimeter. 
• I don't want my 5 passing unless his name is Embiid or Jokic.   Those two are made different. 
• Trae trust CC to roll because CC is the best in the game at it.   OO may get to be as good one day but he has a long way to go. 

 

This is pigeon holing the C position that is evolving/has evolved. It's about the added versatility it can bring on both sides of the ball.

[AHF]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

• Trae trust CC to roll because CC is the best in the game at it.   OO may get to be as good one day but he has a long way to go. 

 

CC is not close to the best roll man in the game.  He is good at it but let's not pretend there aren't 20 guys who would be better.  That obviously includes stars like Giannis but also lower profile players.  For example, John Collins put up better numbers as a roll man before CC arrived.  CC is featured so hard as a roll man because he literally can't do anything else effectively on offense so it is either feature him as a roll man where he is a legit threat or play 4 on 5.

15 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

Counting stats per minute, sure, but the reason he wasn’t getting those minutes on a mediocre Utah team was because he was a liability on offense. He was strictly defense and energy.

DMC went from a league minimum player before us, to netting a 4 yr 58 mil contract after us. His value skyrocketed in Atlanta as he went from a journeyman junkyard dog to, at that time, the prototypical 3&D SF that every team was looking for.

Quinn fixed his footwork which unlocked his catch and shoot potential. Then, in his 2nd season with us, you saw him start to attack off the dribble which he never really did before.

For a guy who came in to the league as an older player (23) and was already (27) when he got to Atlanta, that kind of evolution in his game is pretty significant.

I'm going to agree to disagree with you on this.  I think Ferry saw a productive and underutilized player in Utah and gave  him a bigger role in Atlanta and he kept producing the same numbers in Atlanta over more minutes.  DMC did improve a bit but it wasn't dramatic.  It was adding some range to his jumper and a bit more polish but not a fundamental change.  He was still contributing the exact same production going from 12.7 PP36 in Utah to 12.5 PP36 in Atlanta - just over more minutes. 

As with many players, production + minutes = big pay increase.  He was actually overpaid coming out of Atlanta but that is hardly unique for 3&D players of the era.  When his one big contract ended, he dropped right back down to almost 1/3 of that amount on his next deal and it wasn't because he lost everything that Quin unlocked in him. It is because he didn't really transform that much over time so he went from being underutilized in Utah to underpaid in Atlanta to overpaid in Toronto to fairly paid in San Antonio.

12 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

If Dre is on the roster come opening day, he will get every opportunity to get on the court and produce. Doesn’t matter what any of us think about him. He may not be special, but he is the most solid option we have at either forward position right now. 

Best to get used to him staying in the starting lineup. 

Here we largely agree.  No one can replace Hunter's role as the defender of big wings.  He will be starting absent a trade changing the roster.

[Diesel]

15 hours ago, swanlee said:

He needs to be more agressive and stay healthy. I'm not sure he does either so I'm not very confident in him. Seems he is what he is at this point. 

I think this year could make or break him because he does have quality competition in a new system.  I see it as Him vs. Bey vs. JJ vs. AJ.   now, that could be the fight for both the 3 or the 4.. but it's still competition.   In previous times, there was no real competition.   He was even preferred over Reddish.. originally (probably) because of his draft position and potential.   But now, none of that matters anymore.   There's no GM to prove. 

 

 

[Diesel]

12 hours ago, RedDawg#8 said:

If Dre is on the roster come opening day, he will get every opportunity to get on the court and produce. Doesn’t matter what any of us think about him. He may not be special, but he is the most solid option we have at either forward position right now. 

Best to get used to him staying in the starting lineup. 

I think Dre's PT thus far has been about proving Travis right.   Was he better than Reddish?  Yeah but Reddish had much better potential.   He was clearly better than Solo, Snell, and No Knox.   However, now... JJ, AJ, and Bey offer real competiton for the starting position.  I don't think we have to try to prove that giving him the extension was the right thing. I think now is the best time for healthy competition. 

 

[macdaddy]

I think Clint starts but OO plays more minutes

I think for the 3/4 there's only two choices for starters.  

1. Hunter / JJ   <-- most likely 

2. Hunter / Bey

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

This is pigeon holing the C position that is evolving/has evolved. It's about the added versatility it can bring on both sides of the ball.

My statement about OO and CC have remained constant.  I think that there will come a time when OO's talents will overtake CC's talent and OO will deserve more minutes.   I do believe we're closing in on that. However, OO doesn't do the winning things better than Clint yet.   That's 1.  Defend the rim.   2.   Rebound (Possessions) 3.  Rim run  4. Finisher on the PNR.   He may never be better at all 4 than CC but at least get closer to being better. 

People are saying... we need to trade Clint away because OO can hit an occasional three and hit free throws and bunnies.      Those things are great but those are not things that constitute winning.  That's why a lot of fans pushing for trading CC wants to make up for the loss of CC by bringing in somebody like KAT who can stretch the floor or a big who can make up for the rebounds.   If we have to do all that, then maybe that time when CC's time goes down and OO's time goes up is not here yet. .. And What's wrong with having the 1-2 punch of CC & OO @ the 5 regardless of who gets the most minutes?