Can Hunter Compete??

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, AHF said:

did look back pre-CC.  JC led the entire league in points per game.  Last year he was 47th. 

We don't know exactly what was going on in Houston that year.. because the year before.. this was the case...

 

Even back then, CC's PPP was one of the highest in the league amoungst Bigs at 1.34.

The year you speak of, CC's poss had dropped from 3.7 to 2.2 and JC's had gone from 3.3 to 5.1.  So I can't say what was happening in Houston.  I know that that year Houston had picked up Westbrook in place of CP3... so who plays PG matters. 

 

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

CC and Trae on the PnR is deadly, no arguing that.  It just limits the overall team versatility at C since that's all he can do withing 3 feet and if teams play us for it all the time. I've seen enough broken plays by the defense from the other team and everyone gets up in arms with 'Why'd Trae throw that pass'

For that reason, I advocate for both CC and OO to get PT.  I think OO brings us diversity on offense to be able to step out and hit a midrange shot... but he's not nearly as good in the PNR.   It's the opposite for CC.     We got to get out of the mindset that it's either one or the other.   They can coexist.   And we get to determine the times when we use one versus the other.   That's not a limitation, that's a strength. 

But we're so conditioned to this even odd stuff that we can't see the obvious strengths that we have and we would rather do away with one side of our ying yang and say that we're going in this direction... No diversity and will eventually find that we're missing something. 

 

[Diesel]

25 minutes ago, AHF said:

Before playing with Trae, John Collins was #1 in the league in roll points and Clint Capela was #44 in the league.  Put CC with Trae and he jumps to a top 10 player.

Since you want to emphasize this...

It's not a the Trae effect, it's the Westbrook effect. 

The year you cite was the year that Houston picked up Westbrook.  Years prior with CP3, CC was top 5... and better as a rollman than most of the league. 

2018-2019

Trae PNR 9.7 possession. 

Harden = 7.4 possessions, Paul 5.9 possession.  (Houston total = 13.5 possessions). 

2019-2020  - The year JC led the league

Trae = 15.7 possessions. 

Harden = 5.6 possessions, Westbrook 3.7 possessions ( Houston total = 9.3 possessions). 

 

CC 2018-2019 = 3.7    CC 2019-2020 =  2.4

JC 2018-2019 = 3.4    JC 2019-2020 = 5.1

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?SeasonType=Regular+Season&SeasonYear=2019-20

 

That's the Westbrook effect coinciding with Trae picking up PNR possessions. 

Trae = +6 possessions    Houston = -6.4 possession. 

 CC was still something like 1.18 ppp.

 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

That's just JC's rookie year right?  That must be a small sample.  

No. JC played 3 years without CC.

That was specifically the numbers for the 2019-20 season which was the last season without CC on the roster.  The year before that both CC and JC were near the top of the league with JC being more effective than CC (1.25 ppp for JC versus 1.17 for CC and CC turning it over on 8% of plays versus only 3.6% for JC).

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Since you want to emphasize this...

It's not a the Trae effect, it's the Westbrook effect. 

The year you cite was the year that Houston picked up Westbrook.  Years prior with CP3, CC was top 5... and better as a rollman than most of the league. 

2018-2019

Trae PNR 9.7 possession. 

Harden = 7.4 possessions, Paul 5.9 possession.  (Houston total = 13.5 possessions). 

2019-2020  - The year JC led the league

Trae = 15.7 possessions. 

Harden = 5.6 possessions, Westbrook 3.7 possessions ( Houston total = 9.3 possessions). 

 

CC 2018-2019 = 3.7    CC 2019-2020 =  2.4

JC 2018-2019 = 3.4    JC 2019-2020 = 5.1

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?SeasonType=Regular+Season&SeasonYear=2019-20

 

That's the Westbrook effect coinciding with Trae picking up PNR possessions. 

Trae = +6 possessions    Houston = -6.4 possession. 

 CC was still something like 1.18 ppp.

 

 

 

I agree that Westbrook definitely affected those numbers.

[macdaddy]

9 minutes ago, AHF said:

No. JC played 3 years without CC.

That was specifically the numbers for the 2019-20 season which was the last season without CC on the roster.  The year before that both CC and JC were near the top of the league with JC being more effective than CC (1.25 ppp for JC versus 1.17 for CC and CC turning it over on 8% of plays versus only 3.6% for JC).

Oh i thought you were talking JC without Trae.  

[AHF]

Just now, macdaddy said:

Oh i thought you were talking JC without Trae.  

I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about JC without CC.  CC is what has prevented JC from rim running the last few years like he otherwise would have done for all the reasons we've discussed a bunch of times.

Trae boosted JC's numbers for sure and JC as a rookie was very much an afterthought in the offense so there is no way he would have been among the lead leaders in PnR scoring as a rookie.

My fundamental view is that CC is a very good rim runner but he isn't so much better than what other players would do that we can't bear to play offense without him.  IMO, his offensive contributions are the easy thing to replace if we traded him and replacing him with someone who can do more than score at the rim would do wonders for spacing and different options on offense.  His defensive contributions are what would be more difficult to replace.  His rebounding is fantastic and he is a strong defender around the rim and those are things that aren't nearly as easy to replace.

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, AHF said:

His defensive contributions are what would be more difficult to replace.  His rebounding is fantastic and he is a strong defender around the rim and those are things that aren't nearly as easy to replace.

This 

[AHF]

Just to cap off the "Trae effect", here are Damion Jones' numbers from 2019-20:

1.49 Points Per Possession

78.7% FG% 

34.9% Freq%

I.e., high volume and high production in the PnR when he was on the floor.  Despite him being a terrible basketball player.

The power of Trae Young's passing.

[Gray Mule]

Posters here on the Squawk over rate and under rate our players.  Part of this is due to the head coaches that we have had.  If a player shows up big for a coach, he's really great!  If a player looks bad for a coach, he's terrible!

We all must consider this when we rate any current Hawk.  Each and every player was drafted or traded for, believing he could get the job done.  Quin now, for the first time ever, has a full staff of assistant coaches that he has chosen to work with him and this team.

We've heard, and I believe it's true, things are going to be different.  The question is, can they take these players we have and mold them into the team that we all hope will be a real winner?

The question asked, "Can Hunter compete?"  My answer is a big YES!

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

I probably wasn't clear. I was talking about JC without CC.  CC is what has prevented JC from rim running the last few years like he otherwise would have done for all the reasons we've discussed a bunch of times.

Trae boosted JC's numbers for sure and JC as a rookie was very much an afterthought in the offense so there is no way he would have been among the lead leaders in PnR scoring as a rookie.

My fundamental view is that CC is a very good rim runner but he isn't so much better than what other players would do that we can't bear to play offense without him.  IMO, his offensive contributions are the easy thing to replace if we traded him and replacing him with someone who can do more than score at the rim would do wonders for spacing and different options on offense.  His defensive contributions are what would be more difficult to replace.  His rebounding is fantastic and he is a strong defender around the rim and those are things that aren't nearly as easy to replace.

Agree partly and disagree partly. 

While Trae does make bigs better, He can only do so much.   You cited a CC year where he was struggling playing with Westbrook. 

2017 shows Clint doing equivalent to what he has done here with Trae... ie. 1.34 ppp 4.2 TO, and ~5.2 ppg from the PNR.

 

I do expect CC to decline which I why I say he and OO should be on a rotation that swings to the better player until OO is up to the same level that CC was at a few years ago. 

I have also noted that from last year to this year, Trae has run the PNR less. 

He was like 15.7 2019-2020;  14.0 2021-2022; and 12.7 2022-2023...

Something that's concerning because to me, the strength of his offense is playing off the PNR.   i.e.  PNR, PNP, Goat Float...  I don't think it has anything to do with DJ either.   When Trae was in the games last season, he just didn't run PNR as often.

 

Where I agree is defense.  The defense and rebounding is where OO has to step up.  OO is a shot blocker but not quite a rim protector yet.   OO is better at defending smaller players on the perimeter but to me that switching is not something that we should do.  Leave that to Miami and Bam.   The concept doesn't make a lot of sense unless you have a Physical wing like Butler who can help hold down the middle.  This is prominent everytime MiAMI plays Milwaukee. 

 

 

 

 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Just to cap off the "Trae effect", here are Damion Jones' numbers from 2019-20:

1.49 Points Per Possession

78.7% FG% 

34.9% Freq%

I.e., high volume and high production in the PnR when he was on the floor.  Despite him being a terrible basketball player.

The power of Trae Young's passing.

Uhhh.... 

Damian Jones 2021-2022

1.37 ppp

70.2 FG%

31.2 Freq%

That's with DeArron Fox as the PG. 

Again, I don't think Jones is "terrible" in the PNR and it doesn't seem like Trae just took some joker off the street and made him into Clint Capela.   Fox wasn't terrible, he was Good.. but he wasn't Trae either. 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Uhhh.... 

Damian Jones 2021-2022

1.37 ppp

70.2 FG%

31.2 Freq%

That's with DeArron Fox as the PG. 

Again, I don't think Jones is "terrible" in the PNR and it doesn't seem like Trae just took some joker off the street and made him into Clint Capela.   Fox wasn't terrible, he was Good.. but he wasn't Trae either. 

 

 

Fair but you do see sizable drops in every category.  With Trae, Jones was #7 best in PPP in the entire league among players with a 10% freq%.  Last year he was #21 and saw a 10% drop in PPP and FG%.

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Agree partly and disagree partly. 

While Trae does make bigs better, He can only do so much.   You cited a CC year where he was struggling playing with Westbrook. 

 

I also cited a year where he was strong in Houston and was still less productive on the PnR than John Collins was with Trae in Atlanta.   That means both years that Trae was playing with JC without CC, JC was better than CC in terms of production in the PnR.  

When you compare CC with Trae vs CC without Trae, it looks like a very significant difference in effectiveness to me:

With Trae - Average 1.32 PPP

2022-23 1.38 PPP production

2021-22 1.37 PPP production

2020-21 1.20 PPP production

Without Trae - Average 1.19 PPP

2019-20 1.09 PPP production

2018-19 1.17 PPP production

2017-18 1.34 PPP production

2016-17 1.16 PPP production

2015-16 1.17 PPP production

[Diesel]

18 minutes ago, AHF said:

I also cited a year where he was strong in Houston and was still less productive on the PnR than John Collins was with Trae in Atlanta. 

That doesn't matter if Trae put up 6.0 more PNR opportunities than before and Houston put up 6.4 less PNR opportunities than the year before.   OF Course JC will look better. 

Trae going from 9.7 to 15.7 PNRs per game is going to increase JC's PNR count regardless.  

Now on the PPP, I agree again.. who you play with matters...   That's why 2018-2019 looks a whole lot different than 2019-2020 for CC.   19-20 was the start of his time with Westbrook.   So not only does he get less opportunities, he has a player who can't get him his opportunities in good spots. 

For instance...

Anthony Davis 2019-2020    PPP = 1.28

Anthony Davis 2020-2021  PPP = 1.11

Anthony Davis 2021-2022  PPP = 1.06

Anthony Davis 2022-2023  PPP = 1.28

That is what you would call the Westbrook effect.   Not only do you see it in the stats, the eye test shows it too.   I don't have to suggest when AD played with Westbrook.. I don't have to say one word.  It's right there.  Undeniable. 

 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

 

 

[Diesel]

What happened to all the play making Bigs not named Jokic?

• Embiid...  2nd round exit. 
• Horford....  2nd round exit.
• Valenciunis... No playoffs. 
• Brook Lopez.. out in the first. 

Uhm...  I don't think it's a thing yet. 

Guys like Luka and Lebron don't make the finals.  Hell, Luka didn't even make the playoffs.

Fact of the matter is why do we need a play making big?

 

[Diesel]

It's funny how in a thread about Hunter, he's able to disappear.  Sorta like him on the court. 

No impact. 

 

[Gray Mule]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

What happened to all the play making Bigs not named Jokic?

• Embiid...  2nd round exit. 
• Horford....  2nd round exit.
• Valenciunis... No playoffs. 
• Brook Lopez.. out in the first. 

Uhm...  I don't think it's a thing yet. 

Guys like Luka and Lebron don't make the finals.  Hell, Luka didn't even make the playoffs.

Fact of the matter is why do we need a play making big?

 

Another NBA player, (not a big in size but huge in payroll) that missed the playoffs:  SIAKAM !

[kg01]

16 hours ago, JayBirdHawk said:

 

 

In before the 'anti-Hunter slander' brigade jumps in to defend him.

[Diesel]

Here's a set of questions for the anti-Hunter slander brigade...  (AND ITS NOT SLANDER). 

Two questions.

1. What one thing would you like to see Hunter improve during this offseason?
2. What one thing do you think he has worked on during this offseason?