Can Hunter Compete??

[Diesel]

31 minutes ago, AHF said:

CC is not close to the best roll man in the game.  He is good at it but let's not pretend there aren't 20 guys who would be better.  That obviously includes stars like Giannis but also lower profile players.  For example, John Collins put up better numbers as a roll man before CC arrived.  CC is featured so hard as a roll man because he literally can't do anything else effectively on offense so it is either feature him as a roll man where he is a legit threat or play 4 on 5.

If CC were not so effective as a roll man, we would have never went out and got him.   Why didn't Dallas push for a trade for Collins?  Better Roll man than CC (according to @AHF) who can also hit threes close to a .400 clip before injury.   We have had him on the Blocks for the last three years and there was no serious inquiry from Dallas in that time.   Yet, Dallas says that whenever you want to make a deal, we will happily take CC.   Pundits everywhere are saying that Luka paired with CC would put them in championship contention.   So NO @AHF CC is not some guy that was our roll man simply because he couldn't do anything else.  He's truly gifted at it. 

As far as your assertion that there are 20 guys who would be better.... They have stats for that..

 

A little crude but check out where CC is with Pts as a PNR roll man....  4.0...  However, also look at his PPP....  ONly Christian Wood is higher  then check out the TOV Freq...  

Oh yeah, I checked out your suggestion Giannis...  I had to go way down the list...

1.09 PPP...  5.2 TOV Freq...    He's not in the same Galaxy with CC.  Sorry. 

So I am seriously doubting that there are 20 guys better.   Hell, may not be 1 guy better... 

And to keep it all relative, I looked up OO too...

1.27 PPP and 8.1 TOV Frequency is why I suggest he's not quite there yet. 

 

[Diesel]

33 minutes ago, AHF said:

No one can replace Hunter's role as the defender of big wings. 

That assumes we keep the same defensive scheme.   The whole point is that Quin is going to make big changes to how we play.   Three point shooting and smart decisions with the ball are at the core of those changes.  Keeping unimpactful players who are 1 dimensional on the court doesn't seem like something Quin has to do. 

 

[Diesel]

28 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I think Clint starts but OO plays more minutes

I think for the 3/4 there's only two choices for starters.  

1. Hunter / JJ   <-- most likely 

2. Hunter / Bey

I agree... but 

I can easily see Bey/JJ  over either of those Hunter options. 

It depends on what coach needs. 

 

 

[macdaddy]

4 minutes ago, Diesel said:

I agree... but 

I can easily see Bey/JJ  over either of those Hunter options. 

It depends on what coach needs. 

 

 

I share the same frustrations you have with Hunter but even with his lack of fire he is still a much better defender than Bey.  Bey just gives more effort all the time.  Bey/JJ could be tough but they will struggle against the big time wings of the league i think. 

But trust me, my family thinks i hate Hunter because i'm always yelling at him.  But this could be a good lineup this year for him.   Hunter/JC/Capela were 3 guys who couldn't dribble and weren't great passers.   With JJ in the lineup at the 4 we have an excellent passer in the frontcourt.   Hunter can focus on being a spot up shooter.  The new offense should get him a lot of open looks.  Of course he seems to only hit shots with hands in his face but still....

[Diesel]

14 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I share the same frustrations you have with Hunter but even with his lack of fire he is still a much better defender than Bey.  Bey just gives more effort all the time.  Bey/JJ could be tough but they will struggle against the big time wings of the league i think. 

But trust me, my family thinks i hate Hunter because i'm always yelling at him.  But this could be a good lineup this year for him.   Hunter/JC/Capela were 3 guys who couldn't dribble and weren't great passers.   With JJ in the lineup at the 4 we have an excellent passer in the frontcourt.   Hunter can focus on being a spot up shooter.  The new offense should get him a lot of open looks.  Of course he seems to only hit shots with hands in his face but still....

Bey's defensive issues is not effort or physical ability.   It's knowledge.   I think that can be coached.   Let's look at the facts about Bey and JJ:

• Physically able to play better defense.
• Shows no lack of effort to play defense. 
• PHYSICAL.  Bey is a Physical player. 

I think Snyder has peeped Bey and he sees a player that he can coach up to being a good defender.   Not a great one, but one that's better than Serviceable.   The same with JJ.  Otherwise, he would have never authorized trading JC.   People don't give him respect but JC's defense was good in the Boston series.   It was the best thing he had going for him most of the year.   He played good (Not great) defense.   His defense allowed CC and OO to roam a bit. 

I think Hunter is on the blocks because his defense has been over amplified here.   If you listen here, you would think he was Bruce Bowen or Rueben Patterson.  He's not.  He's not Kawhi or PG 13.  He just stays with his man and doesn't foul too much.   He doesn't make an impact on defense.  He's not getting steals, blocks and he's not causing turnovers.  He's a shot deterrent guy.  His presence will bother would be shooters.   On offense... he doesn't pass.  He doesn't shoot a high percentage from three.   His best scoring is in the midrange and that's when he doesn't dribble the ball off of his feet. 

 

[Final_quest]

If you listen to the Glen Willis player reviews for the end of the season, he and Kevin Chouinard believed CC is one of the best roll men in the league.  He sprints to the rim after setting the pick and puts a ton of pressure on the defense.  Gonna have to see Okongwu deliver similar results before concluding that he is on par with Capela.  It's true that Okongwu has other capabilities compared to Capela, but I don't think we should undervalue Capela's strength is in the PNR.  

With Dame and Harden on the market, it seems like there could be a few more trades to go down before the season starts.  Usually teams wait to see the big deals hit before lesser trades happen.  So Capela and Hunter might still be moved before training camp.  

[AHF]

38 minutes ago, Diesel said:

If CC were not so effective as a roll man, we would have never went out and got him.   Why didn't Dallas push for a trade for Collins?  Better Roll man than CC (according to @AHF) who can also hit threes close to a .400 clip before injury.   We have had him on the Blocks for the last three years and there was no serious inquiry from Dallas in that time.   Yet, Dallas says that whenever you want to make a deal, we will happily take CC.   Pundits everywhere are saying that Luka paired with CC would put them in championship contention.   So NO @AHF CC is not some guy that was our roll man simply because he couldn't do anything else.  He's truly gifted at it. 

As far as your assertion that there are 20 guys who would be better.... They have stats for that..

 

A little crude but check out where CC is with Pts as a PNR roll man....  4.0...  However, also look at his PPP....  ONly Christian Wood is higher  then check out the TOV Freq...  

Oh yeah, I checked out your suggestion Giannis...  I had to go way down the list...

1.09 PPP...  5.2 TOV Freq...    He's not in the same Galaxy with CC.  Sorry. 

So I am seriously doubting that there are 20 guys better.   Hell, may not be 1 guy better... 

And to keep it all relative, I looked up OO too...

1.27 PPP and 8.1 TOV Frequency is why I suggest he's not quite there yet. 

 

Do you mind sharing the link you are looking at?  I can't see the full context for these.

My  view is that Trae is the roll man savant.  Put any big man with him and their numbers will go way up if they are featured.  CC is the one guy who is featured in the PnR today with JC and OO getting scraps.

I'm pretty sure Damian Jones had great productivity numbers with Trae so I don't think CC is some irreplacable offensive force.

I guess I'd like to see CC's numbers when he was in Houston compared to Atlanta and especially JC's numbers before CC.  If you provide the link maybe I can compare those numbers as well.

[AHF]

40 minutes ago, Diesel said:

That assumes we keep the same defensive scheme.   The whole point is that Quin is going to make big changes to how we play.   Three point shooting and smart decisions with the ball are at the core of those changes.  Keeping unimpactful players who are 1 dimensional on the court doesn't seem like something Quin has to do. 

 

I'm not assuming we keep the same defensive scheme.  I am just looking at the demonstrated capabilities of our players.  I actually am expecting scheme changes on both sides of the ball this year and still see Hunter as a necessary starter with the existing roster.

[Diesel]

2 minutes ago, AHF said:

Do you mind sharing the link you are looking at?  I can't see the full context for these.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/roll-man?SeasonType=Regular Season&dir=D&sort=PTS

[AHF]

7 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Bey's defensive issues is not effort or physical ability.   It's knowledge.   I think that can be coached.   Let's look at the facts about Bey and JJ:

• Physically able to play better defense.
• Shows no lack of effort to play defense. 
• PHYSICAL.  Bey is a Physical player. 

I think Snyder has peeped Bey and he sees a player that he can coach up to being a good defender.   Not a great one, but one that's better than Serviceable.   The same with JJ.  Otherwise, he would have never authorized trading JC.   People don't give him respect but JC's defense was good in the Boston series.   It was the best thing he had going for him most of the year.   He played good (Not great) defense.   His defense allowed CC and OO to roam a bit. 

I think Hunter is on the blocks because his defense has been over amplified here.   If you listen here, you would think he was Bruce Bowen or Rueben Patterson.  He's not.  He's not Kawhi or PG 13.  He just stays with his man and doesn't foul too much.   He doesn't make an impact on defense.  He's not getting steals, blocks and he's not causing turnovers.  He's a shot deterrent guy.  His presence will bother would be shooters.   On offense... he doesn't pass.  He doesn't shoot a high percentage from three.   His best scoring is in the midrange and that's when he doesn't dribble the ball off of his feet. 

 

I think you are overstating Bey's D but your comments on Hunter's D are fair.  He isn't an all-world defender and could definitely do more to be more disruptive.  But I still see him as occupying an important role and fully expect he will be starting.  Hopefully Quin will get more out of him on both sides of the ball.  

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

Do you mind sharing the link you are looking at?  I can't see the full context for these.

My  view is that Trae is the roll man savant.  Put any big man with him and their numbers will go way up if they are featured.  CC is the one guy who is featured in the PnR today with JC and OO getting scraps.

I'm pretty sure Damian Jones had great productivity numbers with Trae so I don't think CC is some irreplacable offensive force.

I guess I'd like to see CC's numbers when he was in Houston compared to Atlanta and especially JC's numbers before CC.  If you provide the link maybe I can compare those numbers as well.

I have seen Trae make guys better in the PNR.  NO doubt about it.  However, CC is different.   He's a Savant himself.   That's probably why Trae pushed for us to not trade CC for Ayton last year.  

The thing that's observable about the difference between CC and OO is that OO tends to bring the ball down on PNRs.  It's a No No for Bigs worldwide.  But it's natural like a gag reflex.   CC doesn't have this gag reflex.   He never brings the ball down.  His timing is impeccable. Trae is good enough to hit guys as they are ascending even before they ascend.  JC was really good at being a roll man but again, CC is better.  Maybe it was his time playing with CP3 or Harden but he is at the top of that PNR game.. he rarely turns it over.. as you look at the stats and he finishes most of the time. 

The advantages that OO has is that he can hit foul shots.  However, when you bring it down, you're likely to get fouled more.   Comb the stats Only Christian Woods and Dwight Powell has a better PPP than CC and they have less Points.   And for Powells, his turnovers are bad. 

As far as the Trae effect, compare OO and CC.. they both play with Trae right now...   8.1 TOV frequency is cringe worthy when the old man has 4.3.

 

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

10 minutes ago, Diesel said:

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/roll-man?SeasonType=Regular Season&dir=D&sort=PTS

Thanks!  I will say that I think these numbers are very scheme driven.  Giannis would be a beast if Milwaukee actually ran a lot of PnR which they don't.  Look at the frequency number for him - 6.2%.  That ranks well outside of the top 100.  It just isn't something that the Bucks try to run.  Put Giannis in Atlanta with the system we've run and Trae feeding him and the numbers would be dramatically different, imo.

I did look back pre-CC.  JC led the entire league in points per game.  Last year he was 47th.  That is purely a product of needing to feed CC so CC has something to do on offense.  

But I'll give CC his kudos that he stands out more than I was thinking.  I just think that isn't a hard thing to replace.

Before playing with Trae, John Collins was #1 in the league in roll points and Clint Capela was #44 in the league.  Put CC with Trae and he jumps to a top 10 player.

[Diesel]

10 minutes ago, AHF said:

I'm not assuming we keep the same defensive scheme.  I am just looking at the demonstrated capabilities of our players.  I actually am expecting scheme changes on both sides of the ball this year and still see Hunter as a necessary starter with the existing roster.

It could easily be that capability keeps Dre on the court in lieu of JJ because JJ still has to exhibit that he can hit the outside shot with consistency... but all other things considered, JJ should be on the court because he does have a very diverse skillset. 

In my eyes, the fact that Dre doesn't rebound, dribble or pass well on the offense side of the ball gives more reason to look at him as the odd man out. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

As far as the Trae effect, compare OO and CC.. they both play with Trae right now...   8.1 TOV frequency is cringe worthy when the old man has 4.3.

How many actual minutes is OO playing with Trae vs another PG?

[JayBirdHawk]

7 minutes ago, AHF said:

Before playing with Trae, John Collins was #1 in the league in roll points and Clint Capela was #44 in the league.  Put CC with Trae and he jumps to a top 10 player.

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

iannis would be a beast if Milwaukee actually ran a lot of PnR which they don't.  Look at the frequency number for him - 6.2%. 

I don't think that's scheme.  I think they know his limitations with that.  Because Both Lopez and Portis are doing double digit percentages on the PNR.   21 and 14% respectively.    I just think that Giannis may not be ideal as a roll man.  He prolly brings the ball down too much because he doesn't strike me as one who has ever just caught the ball on the way up.   Plus the defense tends to key in on him so he's a better decoy. 

 

[JayBirdHawk]

Like Dre, OO has missed development time due to injuries - last offseason was a first for OO just working on his game vs rehabbing.

[Diesel]

8 minutes ago, JayBirdHawk said:

How many actual minutes is OO playing with Trae vs another PG?

Very good point. 

There goes DJ freakin up the stats.

 

[macdaddy]

13 minutes ago, AHF said:

Before playing with Trae, John Collins was #1 in the league in roll points

That's just JC's rookie year right?  That must be a small sample.  

[JayBirdHawk]

CC and Trae on the PnR is deadly, no arguing that.  It just limits the overall team versatility at C since that's all he can do withing 3 feet and if teams play us for it all the time. I've seen enough broken plays by the defense from the other team and everyone gets up in arms with 'Why'd Trae throw that pass'