Like I told you...

[Diesel]

 

[AHF]

So he provided no actual evidence and more importantly provided zero reasons why the NBA would favor teams like the Wizards and Spurs in any such rigged lottery.  Par for the course.

[macdaddy]

It may not be rigged but spurs getting 3 number one selections Robinson, Duncan, Wemby is bs anyway.  They are a franchise that is willing to tank very hard.  

[Diesel]

17 minutes ago, AHF said:

So he provided no actual evidence and more importantly provided zero reasons why the NBA would favor teams like the Wizards and Spurs in any such rigged lottery.  Par for the course.

Since David Stern Reached his hand into a barrel and pulled out a frozen cold envelope that had NY Knicks in it, in order to receive the highest prize in the draft at that time, the Draft has been rigged.  The draft is the NBA's system of checks and balances.  It allows the NBA to designate what cities the next stars go to...

The overwhelming evidence that you look for is called purpose.  What is the actual purpose of the draft lottery?  To make sure that teams don't tank??  Don't make me laugh AHF.  The Spurs have made it no secret in all the times that they were given the #1 pick that they were tanking.  When Bron left Cleveland the first time, Cleveland was rewarded with what... 3 straight #1 picks?

The Pistons were the worst team last year... Spurs third worst... but everybody knew were WImby was going before the lottery...  How?

So we have a system that don't discourages tanking one bit.   

Explain this....

 

 

How did the Milwaukee Bucks have better odds of getting Tim Duncan than Vancouver?

If you read it clearly, the NBA were not allowing Tim Duncan to end up in Canada...   Toronto and Vancouver had 0% odds of winning the lottery even though they had the worst and 9th worst records.   Boston couldn't win that year because they had just hired Pitino... and no way was Stern going to let a college coach come into the league and get the most dominant player.  Nor was he going to reward the Celtics for Openly Tanking.   The Celtics were the only team that admitted before the draft that their plan was to Tank for Duncan.   What they didn't know was that it was not about probability, it was about how Stern felt.

 

 

 

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

Since David Stern Reached his hand into a barrel and pulled out a frozen cold envelope that had NY Knicks in it, in order to receive the highest prize in the draft at that time, the Draft has been rigged.  The draft is the NBA's system of checks and balances.  It allows the NBA to designate what cities the next stars go to...

 

I've never seen any logic offered for why the owners would support rigging of the system.

1 - Why would other NBA owners allow this at their expense?

The NBA is not a big revenue pool.  Teams make money off their stars and missing out on the best and brightest costs teams money.  Why would an owner allow the rigging of the draft to repeatedly give Cleveland top picks when it is at their expense? 

2 - If the NBA is rigging the system, why are they so stupid about who gets the top picks?

So why would they not ship the stars where they would make the league the most money?  This is what makes no sense.  San Antonio is not a huge market among the NBA markets.  Look at last year.  Houston could have been given the top pick if the draft is rigged.  Houston has roughly 2.3 million people in it.  San Antonio is a fraction of that size and isn't a big enough draw to even have its own NFL team.

Cleveland has had multiple #1 picks but is the 54th largest city in the US.  Why give them repeated #1 picks over New York, LA, etc.?  

Orlando has had multiple #1 picks but is the 62nd largest city in the US.  Why would the NBA rig the draft and put the entire integrity of product at risk to push people there?

Other #1 picks: 

Minnesota #42.  

New Orleans #53.

Between Cleveland, Orlando, Minnesota, and New Orleans you are covering 8 of the last 13 #1 picks.  How dumb do you have to be to keep giving those teams top picks if the goal is to rig the system to make the most money?  

The whole idea that the draft was rigged to give NY Ewing makes perfect sense.   The NBA should be shipping the biggest stars to the biggest markets every year or at least with the obviously generational players.  The reality of the draft lottery makes no sense if you think it is rigged.

Quote

The overwhelming evidence that you look for is called purpose.  What is the actual purpose of the draft lottery?  To make sure that teams don't tank??  Don't make me laugh AHF.  The Spurs have made it no secret in all the times that they were given the #1 pick that they were tanking.  When Bron left Cleveland the first time, Cleveland was rewarded with what... 3 straight #1 picks?

The Pistons were the worst team last year... Spurs third worst... but everybody knew were WImby was going before the lottery...  How?

So we have a system that don't discourages tanking one bit.   

 

This is a logical fallacy.  The purpose is not to prevent teams from tanking.  There are sports leagues that are set up with systems that have this as a purpose and they don't resemble the NBA.  The purpose is to reduce the incentive to tank by introducing less control of your lottery selection to teams that miss the playoffs.  It is no secret that teams are still better off tanking under the current system.  They just aren't as incented to tank in the same way as they would if they were guaranteed the top pick by virtue of having the worst record.  

Teams that end up with the top pick even though they didn't have the worst record is a feature of this system, not a bug.

Is the current balance the best system?  I don't think so.  But I know tanking would be much worse if there wasn't a lottery as teams would absolutely tank even more shamelessly than the 76ers did at the height of their tanking because the ability to take the next LeBron, Shaq, etc. in a draft with a known superstar.

But, again, this gets us no closer to any logic for why the NBA would rig the draft in the manner it has played out.

3.  How do you keep this secret?

I do have to mention this as the idea that a secret of this nature would go unspoiled for this long is highly, highly improbable.  Why would an accounting firm like Ernst & Young that makes roughly $50 Billion a year put their reputation on the line for a pittance of a fee they get for certifying the lottery every year?  Why would not a single disaffected owner let the cat out of the bag when they see Cleveland gifted with top pick after top pick at their expense?  Why would no one with genuine inside access to a front office let this secret out?  

I don't think the NBA is competent enough to keep a secret this big under wraps for this long.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

1 - Why would other NBA owners allow this at their expense?

The NBA is not a big revenue pool.  Teams make money off their stars and missing out on the best and brightest costs teams money.  Why would an owner allow the rigging of the draft to repeatedly give Cleveland top picks when it is at their expense? 

Because they have no choice and because at some point it will benefit them and most of all because of REVENUE SHARING.

Let's go with the idea that 70% of the owners know that it's rigged...  Most owners become owners to make money... not to win...   As Long as the biggest money maker for the NBA is the TV contract and not the gate... Everybody wins when the commissioner puts the right players in the right places.   If you think they have computer geeks who figure out the best way that a team plays to win more (analytics)... imagine that the NBA itself has computer geeks whose job it is to look at every market and figure out which market will showcase a talent better. 

The owners go with it because whenever they do a new TV contract, the owners make more money. 

Not let's say it were not rigged.   Victor Wimbanyama goes to Detroit.   Do you think Detroit will have the ability to showcase Wimby better than the Spurs? The Spurs got Popp coaching, a track record of winning titles, a city that has supported championship teams.   Detroit has fair weather fans.  The city is not booming like it was. 

This is the attendance comparisons for the last 10 years for Detroit and San Antonio...

 

 

So if you were a league... and you had a choice of where to send Wemby?  Where is he going?  Certainly not Detroit.   And guess what... He didn't. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

2 - If the NBA is rigging the system, why are they so stupid about who gets the top picks?

So why would they not ship the stars where they would make the league the most money?  This is what makes no sense.  San Antonio is not a huge market among the NBA markets.  Look at last year.  Houston could have been given the top pick if the draft is rigged.  Houston has roughly 2.3 million people in it.  San Antonio is a fraction of that size and isn't a big enough draw to even have its own NFL team.

Well, you're on the right track, but you don't have all the information.   Houston just got the #2 and the #3 picks in the two drafts prior to this one.   I think Silver is even handed in given away opps.  Not first piece of info that you don't have is this...

 

I showed the Spurs in the other post I made... but even with all that much population difference, the lowly Spurs have put more butts in the seats over the last 10 years than Houston.   And Houston had some good years...

Secondly, Wimby went to a team that is not only big man capable but also French capable too.   Popp have developed Hall of Famer Big men.  Popp has also developed Hall of fame French players.  Popp said he was retiring two years ago... They started putting Becky Hammond and Bud's name up for next in line.  Haven't heard that since right...  Wonder why?  I can imagine the conversation.   Buford comes to Popp... "Popp, they tell me we can get the next Duncan... but you have to be here to coach him.".   Popp "What?"  Buford " I'm putting those retirement plans on hold, we can get Wimby!!!"

 

 

[AHF]

That changes my view not even a little bit.  Cleveland, Cleveland, Cleveland, Minnesota, Minnesota, New Orleans, etc.  It is asinine to think the NBA will make more money and owners will accept losing millions to a rigged draft by lying down and letting these small markets suck up so many of the #1 picks.  

You say that it is all rigged and Silver is even handed and ignore how many of the same small market teams keep getting these.  It isn't like big market haven't been in the lottery.  

Boston, LA, New York, etc. have all been in the lottery during over the last 13 years and not gotten a single one of these #1 picks.  This narrative has no evidence and makes no sense.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

3.  How do you keep this secret?

I do have to mention this as the idea that a secret of this nature would go unspoiled for this long is highly, highly improbable.  Why would an accounting firm like Ernst & Young that makes roughly $50 Billion a year put their reputation on the line for a pittance of a fee they get for certifying the lottery every year?  Why would not a single disaffected owner let the cat out of the bag when they see Cleveland gifted with top pick after top pick at their expense?  Why would no one with genuine inside access to a front office let this secret out?  

I don't think the NBA is competent enough to keep a secret this big under wraps for this long.

Whoever said it was a secret?  It's like the WWE.  You go through the motions and at the end you have an expected outcome.   The fans are the only ones who don't know that it's fake... and some do know.  However, Just like the WWE, teams still have to go through the real bumping and tumbling to get to the expected outcome.   So San Antonio did have to clean house in order to tank for Wimby.   You can't win the lottery in you're not one of the worst 14 teams in the league. 

 

Now you have asked the questions from the perspective that everybody believes that it's not rigged.  Let me ask you a question from the perspective that everybody else knows that it is rigged.

Victor W. is a franchise changing Player.   A player who can be a Dynastic player.  If Every GM believed that they could really win the lottery and have a shot at Wimby... Why didn't more teams TANK for him?

Indy wasn't doing Jack last year.  Why didn't they pull in the dogs and instead of trying to make the playin, they try to get the lottery win. 

Washington's team wasn't bout a nothing.  Why are they winning 35 games instead of tanking?

Utah could have sat everybody that mattered and went after Wimby.. but instead they chose to keep trying to win?  Why?

Here's the thing... I believe that they knew that they were not going to win the lottery.  Otherwise, why not Tank?

 

 

[Diesel]

6 minutes ago, AHF said:

That changes my view not even a little bit.  Cleveland, Cleveland, Cleveland, Minnesota, Minnesota, New Orleans, etc.  It is asinine to think the NBA will make more money and owners will accept losing millions to a rigged draft by lying down and letting these small markets suck up so many of the #1 picks.  

You say that it is all rigged and Silver is even handed and ignore how many of the same small market teams keep getting these.  It isn't like big market haven't been in the lottery.  

Boston, LA, New York, etc. have all been in the lottery during over the last 13 years and not gotten a single one of these #1 picks.  This narrative has no evidence and makes no sense.

Are they really losing Millions?

Is this hyperboyle?

Let's get to the facts @AHF

Quote

The Average Annual Value Of NBA TV Rights. During the 2022-23 season, the NBA's revenue rose 6% versus the previous season, to an average of $353 million per team, net of debt service and revenue sharing.

Are the owners losing Millions?  Let's unpack the truth here...  The commissioner's job is the make the owners money.  How does he do this.. Sure.. good investments.  Sure managing the CBA and referring the fight that comes with that.   But one main ways he does that is by overseeing the draft and making sure that the best players go to the teams that will benefit the league the most. 

 

[AHF]

42 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Victor W. is a franchise changing Player.   A player who can be a Dynastic player.  If Every GM believed that they could really win the lottery and have a shot at Wimby... Why didn't more teams TANK for him?

 

 

 

Here is the real question.  If it is rigged and every team knows it is rigged because they are all in on it, why would ANY team tank?  All they have to do is miss the playoffs.  There is no need for an embarrassing tear down that costs you millions.  Sell hope - tank for a single season by benching players, etc.  An Atlanta rebuild makes no sense if you know the lottery is rigged.

And I'm still waiting to hear why Ernst & Young is putting 50 BILLION dollars a year at risk to sign off on a well known (hundreds if not thousands of people have to be in on it at least between 30 years of owners, front office personnel, coaches, etc.) fraud.

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, AHF said:

Here is the real question.  If it is rigged and every team knows it is rigged because they are all in on it, why would ANY team tank? 

First I note that you didn't answer my question.

But I will answer both of yours...

1.  IF they are a part of the rig... just like John Cena and Triple H, they will do what they need to do to keep up the appearance.  Like I said before, they still have to be one of the 14 worst teams to be in the lottery. 

2.  Ernst and Young...  50 Billion.   What if Ernst and Young is not in on it.  What if they are doing their job.  What if Smart Play has created a machine that can be programed??  Ernst and Young is just responsible for taking the balls, finding the combination, and making sure the right name gets into the envelope and the envelope is delivered.     But what if the lottery machine is programmable to give whatever combination that the league wants.   Wouldn't it look good to somebody to hear that Ernst and Young oversaw the process.   The 50 Billion dollar accounting firm oversaw the process... Sounds good and believable to the believers.   

or...

What if one guy who is in the room overseeing everything for the NBA is in on it?  You don't have to bribe the whole company... Just one guy.     

 

[AHF]

11 hours ago, Diesel said:

First I note that you didn't answer my question.

But I will answer both of yours...

1.  IF they are a part of the rig... just like John Cena and Triple H, they will do what they need to do to keep up the appearance.  Like I said before, they still have to be one of the 14 worst teams to be in the lottery. 

2.  Ernst and Young...  50 Billion.   What if Ernst and Young is not in on it.  What if they are doing their job.  What if Smart Play has created a machine that can be programed??  Ernst and Young is just responsible for taking the balls, finding the combination, and making sure the right name gets into the envelope and the envelope is delivered.     But what if the lottery machine is programmable to give whatever combination that the league wants.   Wouldn't it look good to somebody to hear that Ernst and Young oversaw the process.   The 50 Billion dollar accounting firm oversaw the process... Sounds good and believable to the believers.   

or...

What if one guy who is in the room overseeing everything for the NBA is in on it?  You don't have to bribe the whole company... Just one guy.     

 

Lots of teams made sure they stunk enough last year to be in the mix for Wembry so I don't think this was a case where people haven't been tanking in recent years.

None of this makes even a little sense to me.  (You know that Ernst & Young certifies this every year and it isn't the same one guy, right?  Not sure if you have worked with accounting firms but a platinum firm like that isn't going to jeopardize their firm for something this small.)  For themselves, E&Y is there just to get a bit of free advertising.  For the league, E&Y is there because 30 teams are competing against each other and all of them covet the high picks so this oversight gives them security they aren't going to be screwed over for Cleveland repeatedly.  (Which doesn't mean that Cleveland can't win repeatedly, it just means that it would be self-destructive for the league to send the top picks there and the other owners wouldn't stand for it happening unfairly at their own expense.)

[macdaddy]

I want to believe it's rigged but generally i think the issue with rigging is there are too many people involved to keep it a secret.  

Still i think the system has proven to be terrible and i'm pissed that SA got Wemby.  

The system really needs to take into account your last 3 seasons.  SA might have still gotten Wemby but they wouldn't have had Duncan.  A one season tank should not get you the top pick.  

[AHF]

44 minutes ago, macdaddy said:

I want to believe it's rigged but generally i think the issue with rigging is there are too many people involved to keep it a secret.  

Still i think the system has proven to be terrible and i'm pissed that SA got Wemby.  

The system really needs to take into account your last 3 seasons.  SA might have still gotten Wemby but they wouldn't have had Duncan.  A one season tank should not get you the top pick.  

There are lots of things they could do to refine it beyond just changing the %s.  Making it so you can't get another top pick the next season after getting one, changing the time horizon to multiple seasons, etc.  I suspect that the conflicting agendas of the owners make these types of changes more difficult.  A lot of teams probably resent the Philadephia process approach which would be favored under a multiple season paradigm whereas others would resent the San Antonio, Orlando, etc. "dip" into the lottery or lucky bounce from a near playoff team.  Everyone wants what they think favors them and consensus becomes difficult to achieve.

[kg01]

Two things:

a. There are a lot of people (i.e. more than 2) who would have to know about it in order for it to be rigged.

b. There's more money and notoriety in exposing that secret than there is in keeping it.

Urgo, in 2023, there's no way the draft could be rigged and it not be exposed.

[kg01]

** None-a yall could tell me it's 'ergo', not urgo?  Sheesh, with friends like yall, who needs enemas? 

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

** None-a yall could tell me it's 'ergo', not urgo?  Sheesh, with friends like yall, who needs enemas? 

I was looking for the Phoebe friends bf scientist guy saying it but no gif for y’all imagine it like we had to in the 80’s!!! 
 

OFF MY LAWN!!!!  

[Spud2nique]

2 hours ago, kg01 said:

** None-a yall could tell me it's 'ergo', not urgo?  Sheesh, with friends like yall, who needs enemas? 

Here’s one applicable 

 

I kid I love you podcast partner!!!  

[Diesel]

11 hours ago, kg01 said:

Two things:

a. There are a lot of people (i.e. more than 2) who would have to know about it in order for it to be rigged.

b. There's more money and notoriety in exposing that secret than there is in keeping it.

Urgo, in 2023, there's no way the draft could be rigged and it not be exposed.

You ever watch your hometown lottery?

It doesn't have to be overseen by Ernst and Young?

It's not done behind closed doors. 

It's probably the same company who makes the machines.  The difference is that they do it in front of everybody. 

How hard would it be for the NBA to put out a pdf print out of all 1001 combinations by team...

And then do the drawing live.  With the whole world watching.   The #3 pick.  The #2 pick...  Then the #1 pick. 

 The thing is... the simplest way to prove it's not rigged will never be done.. why??  because it's rigged.