Like I told you...

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

The big question then is why didn't we get Dwight Howard? 

Bob Sura.

 

[kg01]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

I don't believe for a second that owners do charity for one another at their own expense. ...

I absolutely do believe owners allow certain markets to have the allstar game as a revenue generator tho.  That's obvious and a totally different thing than lotto riggin. 

[macdaddy]

1 minute ago, Diesel said:

Bob Sura.

 

i thought it was rigged?

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Bob Sura.

 

Actually, I owe you better than Bob Sura. 

Here's the possible reason.  That year, Orlando tanked.  That Orlando team was supposed to be McGrady, Duncan, and Hill.   Finally a superteam in Orlando.  Will Duncan was talked out of it by David Robinson.   Hill went to Orlando and suffered a staph infection and didn't play.. and everything was put on McGrady for the first few years of his contract. 

Now was an opportune time to make up for what Orlando loss. 

They fired Doc Rivers and brought in a coach who could tank them into position. 

Grant Hill was held out... until the next season. 

They traded McGrady to Houston for Francis because somebody didn't think that McGrady could be a team player.  Finally a superteam in Orlando. 

 

[Diesel]

Just now, Diesel said:

Actually, I owe you better than Bob Sura. 

Here's the possible reason.  That year, Orlando tanked.  That Orlando team was supposed to be McGrady, Duncan, and Hill.   Finally a superteam in Orlando.  Will Duncan was talked out of it by David Robinson.   Hill went to Orlando and suffered a staph infection and didn't play.. and everything was put on McGrady for the first few years of his contract. 

Now was an opportune time to make up for what Orlando loss. 

They fired Doc Rivers and brought in a coach who could tank them into position. 

Grant Hill was held out... until the next season. 

They traded McGrady to Houston for Francis because somebody didn't think that McGrady could be a team player.  Finally a superteam in Orlando. 

 

There has never been a notion that the NBA didn't want Orlando to be the more successful FL NBA team.  At every turn you can see Stern's hand guiding.    Howard to Orlando was another one of those deals where the Magic was able to recoup what it lost...

 

[Diesel]

11 minutes ago, kg01 said:

I absolutely do believe owners allow certain markets to have the allstar game as a revenue generator tho.  That's obvious and a totally different thing than lotto riggin. 

IF Stern comes into the room of owners and say...

"Hi guys.. The Analytics show that if I put Lebron in Cleveland, we will get more money on our TV contract. "

Do you think those owners will be like HELL No?

In the NBA, an owner wins by owning. Not Winning.  If that were not the case, Owners would spend and wouldn't give a damn about the LT.   The only owners that go over and above the LT are those:

1.  Who are fans.

2.   Have players that they don't want to part with. 

 

 

 

[Spud2nique]

11 minutes ago, Diesel said:

They fired Doc Rivers

That was by far and away Doc’s.. I mean Glenn’s (sorry @kg01) best coaching season. Darrell Armstrong and Chucky Atkins were on one if I may! That would have been a fun “league pass” watch these days. Those dudes played their hearts out led by Ben Wallace. That dude was a man. Look up definition of a (cave) man and you see Big Ben .. oh shoot that is a landmark? Camey Wallace (I believe that still available no?) was a game changer no doubt until he joined the Bulls then just a grab and we’ll deserved I may add.

[Spud2nique]

25 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Bob Sura.

 

Who ? Ahhhhh yeeeess the platinum player. He literally wore the shirt and everytime I think about how we slipped to 6th in that draft and had to take Child it irritates me.. 

[macdaddy]

49 minutes ago, Diesel said:

Actually, I owe you better than Bob Sura. 

Here's the possible reason.  That year, Orlando tanked.  That Orlando team was supposed to be McGrady, Duncan, and Hill.   Finally a superteam in Orlando.  Will Duncan was talked out of it by David Robinson.   Hill went to Orlando and suffered a staph infection and didn't play.. and everything was put on McGrady for the first few years of his contract. 

Now was an opportune time to make up for what Orlando loss. 

They fired Doc Rivers and brought in a coach who could tank them into position. 

Grant Hill was held out... until the next season. 

They traded McGrady to Houston for Francis because somebody didn't think that McGrady could be a team player.  Finally a superteam in Orlando. 

 

 

It's funny your initial reaction was Bob Sura cost us the pick if you really believe that the odds don't matter and it's pre-determined.  You had a freudian slip there. 

Why Orlando and not Atlanta?  Howard's hometown, never been to the finals, a bigger market but equally struggling.  We also had just fired our coach and tanked.    There's no good reason to pick Orlando over Atlanta.   The fact that we've tanked twice multiple years and didn't get a #1 is another hole in the theory.  Why would Orlando get rewarded with 4 #1 picks in the span of 25 years and Atlanta zero if NBA is hand picking. 

[AHF]

2 hours ago, Diesel said:

If you can believe that the first draft lottery  was rigged....

And it was clearly rigged...

What makes you think they would stop and do it by the book?

You can rationalize why they would rig the draft lottery in 1985.  Then with the great success of that rigging and nobody finding out... you believe Stern came into the office and say.. "Ok Boys, we got away with it that time... from now own, we will work on a system of randomness...  we will let FATE decide what happens to our league. ". 

 

OK....

Doing a one-time rigging of the lottery makes sense.  I'm not convinced it happened but there are a couple of key things:  (1) the owners aren't involved - they are victims - so there is no issue about self-interest; (2) as a one-time event without the owners involved the circle can be very, very small; (3) the method by which the lottery was executed was open to that kind of scheme unlike after they changed it; and (4) the risk to the league and the brand of a one-time fraud is so much smaller than a 40 year scheme. 

The Ewing lottery theory only makes sense if Stern does it without the owners being aware of it because there is no freaking way that they would let the Knicks get Ewing if they were involved.  Every team would want that kind of star to spark their fanbase and build the value of their franchise.  But I can understand that Stern believed that feeding a big market was in the best interests of the league and NBA brand as a whole.  That brand grew with the historic big market teams like Celtics, Knicks, etc. and it had very recently leveled up in a big way based on the Bird Celtics / Magic Lakers rivalry.  Big stars in big markets was an obvious play if you were going to risk the league's reputation and the wrath of your bosses by rigging the draft.  

The idea of the richest and most powerful owners willingly giving up the best and brightest new stars in the league to small market competitors for the better part of 40 years is ridiculous.  None of them give a crap about feeding New Orleans.  They only gave a crap about the Chris Paul thing because one of their competitors was getting an unfair advantage in their mind.  They would feel the same way about giving a competitor a top pick too.  They all want the best for themselves and the way the lottery has played out over the years neither aligns with what is best for the league (if rigged) nor what is best for the majority of the owners.  

[AHF]

1 hour ago, Diesel said:

IF Stern comes into the room of owners and say...

"Hi guys.. The Analytics show that if I put Lebron in Cleveland, we will get more money on our TV contract. "

Do you think those owners will be like HELL No?

In the NBA, an owner wins by owning. Not Winning.  If that were not the case, Owners would spend and wouldn't give a damn about the LT.   The only owners that go over and above the LT are those:

1.  Who are fans.

2.   Have players that they don't want to part with. 

 

 

 

This would be the reaction of the owners if you are in the alternate reality where the NBA is rigging every year with the involvement of the owners with a goal of making the most money on the TV contract:

"You think LeBron in Cleveland will make us more money on our TV contract than LeBron in New York or LA?"

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

It's funny your initial reaction was Bob Sura cost us the pick if you really believe that the odds don't matter and it's pre-determined.  You had a freudian slip there. 

Not a Freudian slip...   A running Joke. 

We made a midseason trade, while tanking, for a guy trying to win a big contract.    My belief is regardless of if we had Sura or not, Dwight was going to Orlando. 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, macdaddy said:

There's no good reason to pick Orlando over Atlanta. 

Orlando had shown before that they could be a destination.   When they had Shaq/Penny, they were on TV weekly and everybody was a fan.     Shaq's Orlando carried the league when Jordan went to Baseball.   They were a franchise who could be trusted.

The NBA has never trusted Atlanta.   That's why we have never had a #1 overall. 

 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

This would be the reaction of the owners if you are in the alternate reality where the NBA is rigging every year with the involvement of the owners with a goal of making the most money on the TV contract:

"You think LeBron in Cleveland will make us more money on our TV contract than LeBron in New York or LA?"

 

 

So you want to make NY or LA richer and watch these other teams go out of business?  @AHF you must prefer the 8 league teams of the 60s.. because that's what you are promoting.     Every step of the way, you're promoting that if rigging did go on, then it would mean that the rich would get richer??  It's no reason why you seem to have a failure whenever I speak of the need to grow the league.  It goes beyond your 8 team understanding. 

You actually think ABC or ESPN or TNT would be interested in paying a lot of money to cover a league of 30 teams with 8 super teams and everybody else sucks?

I need you to read the book of Stern every once in a while.   He took the NBA away from Teams like the mighty Celtics of the 60s and made it about Players like Magic Bird Jordan Ewing.  With all of his stars spread out, the owners could make more money.   I know it's hard for you to believe... but nobody wants to see Boston play NY 10 times a year.   The word for the day is PARITY.

 

 

[AHF]

13 minutes ago, Diesel said:

So you want to make NY or LA richer and watch these other teams go out of business?  @AHF you must prefer the 8 league teams of the 60s.. because that's what you are promoting.     Every step of the way, you're promoting that if rigging did go on, then it would mean that the rich would get richer??  It's no reason why you seem to have a failure whenever I speak of the need to grow the league.  It goes beyond your 8 team understanding. 

You actually think ABC or ESPN or TNT would be interested in paying a lot of money to cover a league of 30 teams with 8 super teams and everybody else sucks?

I need you to read the book of Stern every once in a while.   He took the NBA away from Teams like the mighty Celtics of the 60s and made it about Players like Magic Bird Jordan Ewing.  With all of his stars spread out, the owners could make more money.   I know it's hard for you to believe... but nobody wants to see Boston play NY 10 times a year.   The word for the day is PARITY.

 

 

You are insane if you think that networks won't pay more when the big markets are the best teams.  You were talking about TV contracts.  Those are driven far more by Boston, LA, NY, CHI, etc. than they are by Cleveland, SA, Minnesota.  

Go look at the ratings numbers for NBA finals.  Obviously, all the ratings numbers took a beating with COVID.

Pre-COVID the worst finals ratings were the ones won by SA.  The best were the ones featuring LA, Boston, Miami and Golden State.  

There is no world in which a network will pay more for NBA rights when they know they are likely to have Milwaukee versus San Antonio  or some similar small market matchup compared to if they believe they will have Boston / LA.  Why do you think the media covers the big markets so much more?  It is nothing more or less than they get more clicks from article on the Knicks, Lakers, Warriors, etc. than they do on the Pelicans, Timberwolves, and Hornets.  

This conspiracy theory really requires you to make some huge stretches.

Also, when big markets are in the lottery no one is worried about them being the only game in town if they get a new star.  They are worried because those  big market lottery teams weren't even in the playoffs.

[Diesel]

3 minutes ago, AHF said:

You are insane if you think that networks won't pay more when the big markets are the best teams.  You were talking about TV contracts.  Those are driven far more by Boston, LA, NY, CHI, etc. than they are by Cleveland, SA, Minnesota.  

Go look at the ratings numbers for NBA finals.  Obviously, all the ratings numbers took a beating with COVID.

Pre-COVID the worst finals ratings were the ones won by SA.  The best were the ones featuring LA, Boston, Miami and Golden State.  

There is no world in which a network will pay more for NBA rights when they know they are likely to have Milwaukee versus San Antonio  or some similar small market matchup compared to if they believe they will have Boston / LA.  Why do you think the media covers the big markets so much more?  It is nothing more or less than they get more clicks from article on the Knicks, Lakers, Warriors, etc. than they do on the Pelicans, Timberwolves, and Hornets.  

This conspiracy theory really requires you to make some huge stretches.

Also, when big markets are in the lottery no one is worried about them being the only game in town if they get a new star.  They are worried because those  big market lottery teams weren't even in the playoffs.

It's sad that you lack understanding here.

Let's talk LA and NY for a minute because these are the biggest market teams....

Here's the question...

1. Does either of these market need the biggest star to be relevant?

These teams can be without and they will still have relevance.   But if you make the smaller market teams irrelevant.. what type of league will you have?

Follow this... the most current advertisement.

If there were 

No Wimby in San Antonio.

No SGA in OKC

No Kawhi in LAC

No Jokic in Denver

No Embiid in Philly..

No Lebron in LAL

would anybody want to watch them??

If all of the stars played in NY, LA, CHi, and Bos as you are promoting...  Would TNT be able to advertise these games?

These games would be like watching the G-League. 

Instead, the NBA has a responsibility to the large market and the small market to keep everybody watchable.   They do that by picking and choosing where star players go. 

 

Let's suppose that ... NYK had  Wimby, Lebron, Kawhi, Booker, and Curry.... There it is @AHF  you have the best players in the biggest market. 

Let's suppose that LAL had...   Embiid, Giannis, KD, Butler, and SGA..... The other large market has the best players too. 

Now Let say... Chi had...Jokic, AD, Luka, JBrown, and Dame Time...

 

So now we have three large markets with the best players on it...

1.  Do you think that more people will want to watch these teams play other teams like San Antonio or Houston or Atlanta??

2.  The maximum time that they could play each other is what 3 to 4 times a season?

3.  Do you think that National Fans will want to watch this league with 3 teams that will treat everybody else like the Washington Generals?

How is TNT going to promote a Suns vs. Nuggets game...  No Jokic.  No Book.  No KD.   Do you want to spend your time watching that?

This is what fans will say....  I'll start watching when they get to the finals.  

Even in your large markets...  how many of the larger market fans will want courtside seats to watch a Jacked up Knicks team play Orlando?

You don't understand the value in parity or in Hope.   You have to give fanbases some Hope otherwise nobody will want to follow the team...  As a Hawks fan, you should know this.  Compare Hawks attendance before Trae and after Trae.  Compare the amount of TV games the Hawks got before Trae and after Trae.  They still put out packages of teams with stars...  You can buy a package that allows you to come when the Hawks play Giannis and Milwaukee, Lebron and the Lakers, Jokic and the Nuggets, and Embiid and the Sixers..    That's how it's advertised.  If the superteams were put together the way that you would want it to be, it would be very hard advertising and getting fans out. 

 

 

 

 

[AHF]

So why did the NBA give Ewing to NY instead of hicksville town of little hope?  You tell me in one breath it was to get the big star on the biggest stage and then in the next breath that TV networks will pay less to see the stars on the biggest teams and can't wait to have them in Cleveland, Minnesota, San Antonio, etc.  As if the Premier League and the other biggest leagues in all of global sports suffer from having premium big network teams.  There is a lot more money in these leagues and they are all setup to have huge teams - not parity.  Follow the money.  This isn't hard.  

Whether this supposed rigging of the draft is supposed to be balanced, who is supposed to favor and why, etc. is so all over the place it is ridiculous.  I haven't found anything persuasive except that there would be good motive and opportunity to fix the Ewing draft if the league was willing to risk its reputation doing so.

[Jdawgflow]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Not a Freudian slip...   A running Joke. 

We made a midseason trade, while tanking, for a guy trying to win a big contract.    My belief is regardless of if we had Sura or not, Dwight was going to Orlando. 

Dwight was going to be the new Shaq.  At least that was the plan.

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, AHF said:

So why did the NBA give Ewing to NY instead of hicksville town of little hope?  You tell me in one breath it was to get the big star on the biggest stage and then in the next breath that TV networks will pay less to see the stars on the biggest teams and can't wait to have them in Cleveland, Minnesota, San Antonio, etc.  As if the Premier League and the other biggest leagues in all of global sports suffer from having premium big network teams.  There is a lot more money in these leagues and they are all setup to have huge teams - not parity.  Follow the money.  This isn't hard.  

Whether this supposed rigging of the draft is supposed to be balanced, who is supposed to favor and why, etc. is so all over the place it is ridiculous.  I haven't found anything persuasive except that there would be good motive and opportunity to fix the Ewing draft if the league was willing to risk its reputation doing so.

Oh.. You missed the video..

The NBA was a dying league and they needed to be saved.   The TV contract was on the line.   At the time the draft lottery started.. the thinking was more like what you say.. they needed the biggest market to have a face.  BUT after that.. after they got the next TV contract, it was not that important.   Stern's work consisted of making sure that Stars were the focal point of the league and not teams.  He was not trying to build or rebuild the mighty Knicks.   He had proven that he could breathe some life into the league by placing stars in different places and living off of their popularity.  

Here's a quote if you care to read...

Quote

 When he took over the NBA in 1984, he was tasked with repairing a damaged product. “We had the drug issue,” says NBA Hall-of-Famer Alex English, the league’s scorer in the 1980s, referring to rising rates of cocaine use among players. “Our image was rough. We were on tape delay. People thought the league was too black.” But by promoting stars like Johnson, Michael Jordan and Larry Bird, stabilizing the NBA’s business model and seeing the league’s potential beyond American borders, Stern—a demanding boss unafraid to raise his voice or tick people off in pursuit of league interests—helped transform the NBA into today’s multi-billion-dollar colossus that is enjoyed around the globe.

 

[AHF]

15 hours ago, Diesel said:

Oh.. You missed the video..

The NBA was a dying league and they needed to be saved.   The TV contract was on the line.   At the time the draft lottery started.. the thinking was more like what you say.. they needed the biggest market to have a face.  BUT after that.. after they got the next TV contract, it was not that important.   Stern's work consisted of making sure that Stars were the focal point of the league and not teams.  He was not trying to build or rebuild the mighty Knicks.   He had proven that he could breathe some life into the league by placing stars in different places and living off of their popularity.  

Here's a quote if you care to read...

 

No I get exactly why that works and makes sense.  The pivot to favoring Minnesota, Cleveland, etc. over LA and NY makes no sense.