2 part Trae question

[Spud2nique]

Where does Trae rank amongst the all time great PG’s in league history?

1. If his career ended today?

2. When it’s all said and done ..2035..2037 whenever it may be?

[akay]

Top 20 rn, and I can see him finishing top 5.

1. Magic

2. Curry

3. O Rob

4. Trae

5. Isiah Thomas

He's one of the best to every dish it out, can score, just needs a few titles and he'll be considered up there

[Diesel]

Here are the right now numbers for Trae vs. Steph (#2 all time)

361 games

Points: No. 452 all-time. (9183)

Assists: No. 182 all-time  (3336)

 

890 games

Points: No. 35 all-time  (21982)

Assists: No. 44 all-time.  (5778)

 Career pers is..

If Trae can maintain his pace, by the time he plays as many games as Steph has, his ppg and apg will be significantly higher than Steph's. 

That's saying alot considering I have always looked at Steph as an OG and the offense didn't run through him. 

Here's the mind blowing thing.  If Trae pulled back his apg to just about 8 per game.. He'd catch Steph's apg in 4 seasons. 

Here's something else mind blowing...   Kyrie Irving has played in 2 times as many games a Trae... Just under 2 times as many...  Kyrie has

3,879 assists.  Trae will catch Kyrie this year if he continues on his trajectory.

I mentioned Kyrie because Hoopshype has Kyrie as a top 20 PG of all time.

 

 

[JustSomeGuy]

10 hours ago, akay said:

Top 20 rn, and I can see him finishing top 5.

1. Magic

2. Curry

3. O Rob

4. Trae

5. Isiah Thomas

He's one of the best to every dish it out, can score, just needs a few titles and he'll be considered up there

Would but Stockton, Steve Nash and CP3 above Trae, and Westbrook somewhere in there too. So top 5 is possible but top ten absolutely. 

[NBASupes]

Team success is the only thing that would get Trae in the top 100. So many people are currently counting him out even though he's the best verison of him that I've seen in his career. 

[Diesel]

2 hours ago, JustSomeGuy said:

Would but Stockton, Steve Nash and CP3 above Trae, and Westbrook somewhere in there too. So top 5 is possible but top ten absolutely. 

You make a good point from a statistical standpoint.  The current and close to current PGs that Trae will have a hard time catching statistically are Westbrook and Harden. 

Nash, Stockton nor CP3 were ever the scorer that Trae is.     Trae pretty much is right under them in terms of apg.   However, as you consider the whole package, it's going to be hard to keep Trae out of that party... Especially if he gets a chip.    Winning one or two chips will move Trae past those guys and Westbrook and Harden. 

 

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, NBASupes said:

Team success is the only thing that would get Trae in the top 100. So many people are currently counting him out even though he's the best verison of him that I've seen in his career. 

Unfortunately, some of this is true. 

I looked at Hoopshype top 20 of all time.   Kyrie is in the top 20 of all time.   Harden is not.   Statistically, Kyrie can't hold Harden's shoes...  However, he is on the list.   I figure because he took a ride to Lebron and won a chip.   Moreover, the media has soured on Harden.   But it can't be all about success, CP3 is their 6th all time. 

 

[thecampster]

When Trae was drafted, I was one of only a couple on the board pining for him to be the pick. I am and have always been a Trae Stan.

 

That said:

1) A big part of Trae's game has always been having more energy than everyone else. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

2) A big part of Trae's game has always been having a better 1st step than everyone. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

3) In my career, I am very much a generalist. I am not "great" at 1 thing. It has served me well. Trae is also a generalist when it comes to shooting. His bag is very full. But he is not "great" at anything except the float game. He is an average 3 point shooter, a good but not great personal shot creator and he is streaky. Trae needs to pick something to be great at shooting wise and work on nothing but that. He needs a dagger shot and 30 foot 3's is not it.  He needs something that requires you can never leave him alone off ball. Think Korver curl off a screen top of the 3 pt line.  The guy was deadly there.  Trae needs a shot he doesn't miss. As he ages, he'll be less able to draw foul calls, less likely to take the pounding.

4) The game is played on both ends. He is not the defender many of the other greats were.  He'll never be best on ball but he doesn't have to be. He needs to continue to improve off ball. Taking away passing lanes, dropping down to dig on bigs (FYI, this drives Embiid crazy) and helping on other's to cut off the strong hand dribbles (FYI, this drives Lebron crazy). 

 

If his career ended today, he's a top 50 pg all time, maybe top 20.  If he doesn't continue to evolve on defense and doesn't evolve his offensive game for the long haul, he may end up a bench player by 30.

[Gray Mule]

Perception is everything!

If Trae was with a big, major team, he would be considered elite.  But, he's an Atlanta Hawk.  In the national media's eyes, this is a major difference.  Therefore his stats must be a lot better, not just a small bit.

Squawk posters, for the most part, think of him as being a lot better than the national media.  We watch his every game and, because we do, we believe.  Others, who see him only occasionally and then as an opponent, think differently.

[Diesel]

3 hours ago, thecampster said:

When Trae was drafted, I was one of only a couple on the board pining for him to be the pick. I am and have always been a Trae Stan.

 

That said:

1) A big part of Trae's game has always been having more energy than everyone else. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

2) A big part of Trae's game has always been having a better 1st step than everyone. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

3) In my career, I am very much a generalist. I am not "great" at 1 thing. It has served me well. Trae is also a generalist when it comes to shooting. His bag is very full. But he is not "great" at anything except the float game. He is an average 3 point shooter, a good but not great personal shot creator and he is streaky. Trae needs to pick something to be great at shooting wise and work on nothing but that. He needs a dagger shot and 30 foot 3's is not it.  He needs something that requires you can never leave him alone off ball. Think Korver curl off a screen top of the 3 pt line.  The guy was deadly there.  Trae needs a shot he doesn't miss. As he ages, he'll be less able to draw foul calls, less likely to take the pounding.

4) The game is played on both ends. He is not the defender many of the other greats were.  He'll never be best on ball but he doesn't have to be. He needs to continue to improve off ball. Taking away passing lanes, dropping down to dig on bigs (FYI, this drives Embiid crazy) and helping on other's to cut off the strong hand dribbles (FYI, this drives Lebron crazy). 

 

If his career ended today, he's a top 50 pg all time, maybe top 20.  If he doesn't continue to evolve on defense and doesn't evolve his offensive game for the long haul, he may end up a bench player by 30.

i respect your call here but there's one thing to note.

I don't think alot of the so called great guards were/are great two way players. 

Dame Time and Steph = Not great defenders.   I watched Steph avoiding having to defend Kyrie in the finals because he was getting COOKED. 

Harden...  Doesn't even want to play defense. 

CP3...  Defense is invisible. 

Nash... 2 time MVP.. Couldn't defend anybody. 

Isiah.. gets credit for being a good defender but I can't put my hand on anybody that he's ever defended.   Seriously... Players wasn't passing out because of Isiah.   He played with a rough and ready bunch that called themselves the Bad Boys and by association, he was giving a reputation. 

Magic...   See Isiah. 

Guards I respect for their defense.

Stockton.  - This guy was the truth on both sides of the ball. 

Payton - Of Course... The Glove.

Kidd - He moved his feet like he trained defense more than offense. 

Westbrook - Will finish as one of the least respected best players to ever play the game. 

[Wretch]

Trae is a "bad" shooter with a "great" shot.  Shot selection is what's keeping him from that upper echelon of scorers.  Part of that is most certainly maturity, but the larger part of it is just situational.  He runs the offense and is one of the most adept scorers in the league.  As long as there is no other threat opposite him, he will have to hunt his shot and it's holding him back.

His court vision and passing accuracy is phenomenal.  Though, again, this is situational efficacy pending players who can actually capitalize on the attention he draws and the skill he has delivering passes.  Imagine the options if he had prime Korver and a legit post threat.  

On talent alone, Trae is a top 20 PG right now.  In the right situation (the way Pippen found himself), Trae will be consensus top 10 and I'll go so far as to say he will win at least one championship.  He's not just a scorer and he doesn't just pass the ball.  He's stupidly skilled at both, but unquestionably needs maturity and good system.

Also...I don't consider Steph a PG.  I would compare him to the great scorers and shooters, where he is unquestionably one of the absolute best.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

8 hours ago, thecampster said:

When Trae was drafted, I was one of only a couple on the board pining for him to be the pick. I am and have always been a Trae Stan.

 

That said:

1) A big part of Trae's game has always been having more energy than everyone else. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

2) A big part of Trae's game has always been having a better 1st step than everyone. That is going to change as he passes 25. He's going to need to evolve.

3) In my career, I am very much a generalist. I am not "great" at 1 thing. It has served me well. Trae is also a generalist when it comes to shooting. His bag is very full. But he is not "great" at anything except the float game. He is an average 3 point shooter, a good but not great personal shot creator and he is streaky. Trae needs to pick something to be great at shooting wise and work on nothing but that. He needs a dagger shot and 30 foot 3's is not it.  He needs something that requires you can never leave him alone off ball. Think Korver curl off a screen top of the 3 pt line.  The guy was deadly there.  Trae needs a shot he doesn't miss. As he ages, he'll be less able to draw foul calls, less likely to take the pounding.

4) The game is played on both ends. He is not the defender many of the other greats were.  He'll never be best on ball but he doesn't have to be. He needs to continue to improve off ball. Taking away passing lanes, dropping down to dig on bigs (FYI, this drives Embiid crazy) and helping on other's to cut off the strong hand dribbles (FYI, this drives Lebron crazy). 

 

If his career ended today, he's a top 50 pg all time, maybe top 20.  If he doesn't continue to evolve on defense and doesn't evolve his offensive game for the long haul, he may end up a bench player by 30.

 

Most NBA players don't even hit their prime until their late 20s - early 30s.  The biggest thing that slows a player down, is a lower leg injury, whether it has to do with their knees or ankles/feet.

I keep telling people this, but they don't believe me when I say it.  Trae Young's true comparison, with the way that he plays and the top scorer responsibilities he has, is closer to Allen Iverson, than any other player past or present in the NBA. 

Iverson stayed a top level player that exerted a ton of energy while doing it, into his early 30s. The amount of minutes he played per game, would be absolutely insane in today's NBA. 

Trae is 25.  First red mark is Iverson's years by age 25.  Yellow are, in my opinion, Iverson's prime years.  Anything circled in red represents Iverson missing at least 20% of a season.

 

 

If Prime AI was between the ages of 23 - 31, and Trae's production arc mimic's AI's . . then barring injury, or the Hawks bringing in a true #1 offensive option, Trae is going to continue to put up 20 - 25 ppg + 9 - 11 assists per game, at least until he's in his early 30s.  Question is, will he still be a Hawk going into his 30s?

His speed isn't going to leave him when he turns 30.  He'll be at or near his physical peak at that age.

 

Before looking at all of this, I said that Trae is top 40 right now ( only because he's only played 5 years ) . . and will be top 20 at the end of his career ( more like top 10 - 15 ).

But if the guy doesn't have a significant injury that sidelines him for more than 40 games in a season, before he turns 30, he has a great shot at finishing his career averaging 20+ ppg and 8+ assists per game.  The only guys that currently that can say they did that, are Oscar Robertson and Russell Westbrook.

 

The only way he's going to be playing off the bench ever in his career, is if he loses a step because of injury, or if he's in his 30s, playing on a high level championship caliber team, with another great PG ahead of him.

 

Trae is in Year 6, and not even 50% through his career yet.  His numbers are actually insane, despite some people think they are easy to get, due to his usage. And the assist numbers are steadily rising year by year.

I didn't have him in the top 10 at the end of his career, but these are definitely top 10, if not top 5 production.

His playoff success will determine if he'll be top 10 all time, because the media already has, and will snub him for All-Star and All-NBA appearances, until the Hawks become a very high level team.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by TheNorthCydeRises

[Diesel]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

His court vision and passing accuracy is phenomenal.  Though, again, this is situational efficacy pending players who can actually capitalize on the attention he draws and the skill he has delivering passes.  Imagine the options if he had prime Korver and a legit post threat.  

This....

People miss the fact that as a passer, Trae is at the top of the elite list.   Because of that, I'm willing to wait on more maturity...  We have a great coach who will aid in the development of emotional maturity.   Trae is mature.. no doubt but game maturity is different.   It's the difference between MVP Steph and 4th title Steph.  MVP Steph that won the MVP unanimously had all the tools on display and was truly in his prime... but the emotional maturity steal had a ways to go.   Whereas Trae is a better passer and close to being as good a scorer... the good thing is that his maturity is further along than Steph's was at that time.  Still, a ways off.  

[Spud2nique]

8 hours ago, thecampster said:

When Trae was drafted, I was one of only a couple on the board pining for him to be the pick.

I liked him 3rd after Luka and Mikal. I knew we wouldn’t reach on Mikal at 3 though unless we traded down. Trae is the man we’ve always wanted that leader PG, he’s generational. I’m a stan for sure as well. 

[Spud2nique]

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

CP3...  Defense is invisible. 

7 time all NBA first team. 

 

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Isiah.. gets credit for being a good defender but I can't put my hand on anybody that he's ever defended.

Isiah didn’t take a lot of bullying so he wasn’t an easy night off or anything, he was one of the smaller ones back then but everytime he faced us I worried about him on both ends. 

5 hours ago, Diesel said:

Guards I respect for their defense.

Stockton.  - This guy was the truth on both sides of the ball. 

Payton - Of Course... The Glove.

Kidd - He moved his feet like he trained defense more than offense. 

Westbrook - Will finish as one of the least respected best players to ever play the game. 

Again Cp3 but the rest yes.

Edited November 11, 2023 by Spud2nique

[Spud2nique]

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

keeping him from that upper echelon of scorers. 

Hasn’t he been in the top 10 like every year after his rookie year?  

 

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

Also...I don't consider Steph a PG.

Thank you seriously, some people keeping saying that and it’s lame. It was Iggy and others he’s the lil fcker (pardon my French ) running around 3 illegal screens for 10 years with the help of Draymond and Bogut and Zaza and other huge dudes. He’s a shooting guard PERIOD! 

 

1 hour ago, Wretch said:

where he is unquestionably one of the absolute best.

Ahhhh chadup ya brown noser my bad that got away from me at the end there.

[Spud2nique]

40 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

I didn't have him in the top 10 at the end of his career,

I haven’t voted yet and the weird thing is that I can’t see anyone’s votes unless they state it like you did otherwise you gotta vote to see the results. 
 

I have the upmost respect for Trae’s game and I’m a huuuge Stan I’ll admit it. He came in and the first workout he had against Lloyd Pierce on YouTube or somewhere I knew he was the one. One of the best pure passers the game seen already. I’m prolly biased but I’m trying to vote accurately but also with my heart (feel) over my mind (numbers).

 

39 minutes ago, Diesel said:

This....

People miss the fact that as a passer, Trae is at the top of the elite list. 

I see your “THIS” and “THIS” yours!  

[Diesel]

4 minutes ago, Spud2nique said:

7 time all NBA first team. 

That's a popularity contest. 

When you go around calling yourself the Point god, people start believing it.   He's good... a great passer, an above average scorer especially in the midrange... but he doesn't lock anybody up without fouling.

 

[AHF]

47 minutes ago, TheNorthCydeRises said:

 

Most NBA players don't even hit their prime until their late 20s - early 30s.  The biggest thing that slows a player down, is a lower leg injury, whether it has to do with their knees or ankles/feet.

I keep telling people this, but they don't believe me when I say it.  Trae Young's true comparison, with the way that he plays and the top scorer responsibilities he has, is closer to Allen Iverson, than any other player past or present in the NBA. 

Iverson stayed a top level player that exerted a ton of energy while doing it, into his early 30s. The amount of minutes he played per game, would be absolutely insane in today's NBA. 

Trae is 25.  First red mark is Iverson's years by age 25.  Yellow are, in my opinion, Iverson's prime years.  Anything circled in red represents Iverson missing at least 20% of a season.

 

 

If Prime AI was between the ages of 23 - 31, and Trae's production arc mimic's AI's . . then barring injury, or the Hawks bringing in a true #1 offensive option, Trae is going to continue to put up 20 - 25 ppg + 9 - 11 assists per game, at least until he's in his early 30s.  Question is, will he still be a Hawk going into his 30s?

His speed isn't going to leave him when he turns 30.  He'll be at or near his physical peak at that age.

 

Before looking at all of this, I said that Trae is top 40 right now ( only because he's only played 5 years ) . . and will be top 20 at the end of his career ( more like top 10 - 15 ).

But if the guy doesn't have a significant injury that sidelines him for more than 40 games in a season, before he turns 30, he has a great shot at finishing his career averaging 20+ ppg and 8+ assists per game.  The only guys that currently that can say they did that, are Oscar Robertson and Russell Westbrook.

 

The only way he's going to be playing off the bench ever in his career, is if he loses a step because of injury, or if he's in his 30s, playing on a high level championship caliber team, with another great PG ahead of him.

 

Trae is in Year 6, and not even 50% through his career yet.  His numbers are actually insane, despite some people think they are easy to get, due to his usage. And the assist numbers are steadily rising year by year.

I didn't have him in the top 10 at the end of his career, but these are definitely top 10, if not top 5 production.

His playoff success will determine if he'll be top 10 all time, because the media already has, and will snub him for All-Star and All-NBA appearances, until the Hawks become a very high level team.

 

If Trae doesn’t finish as a dramatically better passer and more efficient scorer than AI he will be an epic failure.

[AHF]

6 hours ago, Diesel said:

i respect your call here but there's one thing to note.

I don't think alot of the so called great guards were/are great two way players. 

Dame Time and Steph = Not great defenders.   I watched Steph avoiding having to defend Kyrie in the finals because he was getting COOKED. 

Harden...  Doesn't even want to play defense. 

CP3...  Defense is invisible. 

Nash... 2 time MVP.. Couldn't defend anybody. 

Isiah.. gets credit for being a good defender but I can't put my hand on anybody that he's ever defended.   Seriously... Players wasn't passing out because of Isiah.   He played with a rough and ready bunch that called themselves the Bad Boys and by association, he was giving a reputation. 

Magic...   See Isiah. 

Guards I respect for their defense.

Stockton.  - This guy was the truth on both sides of the ball. 

Payton - Of Course... The Glove.

Kidd - He moved his feet like he trained defense more than offense. 

Westbrook - Will finish as one of the least respected best players to ever play the game. 

You respect Westbrook for his defense alongside those three?  That is like respecting him for his perimeter shooting on a list with Steph, Nash, and Kyrie.  
 

Westbrook will definitely go down less respected in my book than yours.  I think he might tank LA this year.  He does not fit with that team.  (He doesn’t fit with most teams.)