Huge game for Bogut

[mdawg]

You don't think Bogut is Ewing or Shaq, but what have you seen that tells you Paul is Kidd or Nash? Paul supposedly plays against the toughest competition in the country, but when was the last time he dominated a game? All the guys who came out of high school dominated inferior competition, yet no one had a problem drafting any of them. There are people on this board who want the Hawks to draft another H.S. player this year. Who did Howard or Josh Smith play against last year in H.S.? Bogut would be great in any conference. I hate to say this, but it seems like Bogut is being compared to every white stiff who's ever played in the NBA. If Bogut was from Harlem instead of Austrailia, would there be a question about his ability? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it doesn't seem fair to me.

[Wretch]

You have to be careful. Sure, nobody wants to waste a pick on a stiff...but more importantly, you don't want to waste a pick simply because of size. You think the Hawks regret taking Koncak? How about the Clips...think they'd like to rerun that pick on Kandi?

I don't think we need to take a PG because it's the hardest position to man and I don't think we need to take a big guy because they are hard to come by. I think we need to look at talent and what guy can do - period. Talent is what wins games, not size and not roles.

At the same time, I'm not concerned at all. Billy Knight is a guy unlike MANY GMs out there - discouting his fetish for long/athletic players. He's going to bring guys in and evaluate them purely on skill and potential - and I love that about him.

[Diesel]

Our need is at the C position and the PG position. I am saying that you have to take it case by case. Bogut is getting a lot of press here lately, but who is to say that he will turn out any better than Kaman or Mihm. I remember Mihm gettting a whole lot of press in his senior year too.

Then there's the PG position. Who is to say that we won't get the next Steve Francis or the next Jay Williams... Again.. It's hard to say.

However, we have to take it point by point.

as for as your reference of how quickly those guys can make an impact... That's a misleading Point. Because the PG position is the hardest position to learn....

As long as a Big man has size, he can get on the court and play. A PG might not get out there so quickly. It's all on the coach. Let's take for instance the development of Curry vs. that of Hinrich. They play for the same team... Curry is just starting to develop. Hinrich had to wait to the 2nd half of his rookie year to get some good playing time. Now... Hinrich is the force that makes the bulls better.

You want to lean on Okafor and Howard. They play for teams with no other Pfs in sight... Of course they will get PT. Their PF position doesn't require them to learn many plays, just go out there and rebound, set picks, and play defense.

However, TMac.. Do we care about Immediate impact so much?? I mean do you expect to be in the finals by next year? If we get a rookie PG who becomes an allstar 2-3 years down the road was it a bad pick?

[Diesel]

What I think about BK and the PG position is that he will not consider Paul or Felton. BK doesn't like little guards. He's from the Phil Jackson school...

Therefore, I think we come away with either Williams or Bogut..

Like you said, BK is all about drafting who he thinks is the best player available. So if it came down to Williams vs. Bogut, I wouldn'tbe surprised to see him take Williams.

[TheRedStripes]

To be honest, im not sure who the first pick should be, but i will say this...it SHOULD NOT be Chris Paul...he is ridiculously overrated, he reminds me of kenny anderson but just not near as good as Kenny was in his 2 years at GT

Kenny averaged 23 points and 7 assists at tech

Paul averages 15 points and 6 assists

maybe the first pick should be Bogut...but i cant say because i havent seen him play enough, i saw him play a few times but i dont think i saw anything that made me say YES he is the guy! its pretty sad that the one year the hawks have a shot at the first pick theres not a guy coming out thats a clear cant miss future star NBA player

Marvin Williams could be an option...he is 6'10" and shoots the outside shot well, has a ton of offensive talent...

Marty the 7'3" guy who has been working with Sabonis might be another option...he seems to be really athletic and skilled for a guy that tall...to be honest im sort of hoping this guy is awesome and will have some workouts and emerge as the clear favorite, id feel a lot better about having the no.1 pick

[tmac13]

If all things are equal, if there is a choice between a point guard and a center that seem completely equal, take the big man..Take the big man and sign a young already developed point guard and actually attempt to win a few games..I know actually trying to win seems like a foreign concept to all the lottery lovers here but I would like to give it a try.

BTW..In regards to your post about Siemien being the best big man coming out..He is listed at 6'9" and 255..He looks closer to 6'7"..Watched him get several shots altered and or blocked last night vs Texas Tech..I don't think he will be able to get his shot off in the NBA. Bogut posted another 31-13 game..

[tmac13]

That is exactly the case..Bogut keeps getting compared to soft, jump shooting lighter pigmented centers like Chris Mihm..His game is nothing like that..He is putting up numbers that no center in any conference has put up in years. He is literally being triple teamed and he is still posting gawdy numbers..I have watched him a few times and the only people he reminds me of are a much bulkier Kevin McHale, or even more like a young healthy Bill Walton.

[TheDude]

and the fact that his (Bogut)fundamentals are already superb only strengthens the fact that as a rookie, he'll be able to contribute much more..

[Final_quest]

To me taking Bogut is a no brainer. In fact I hope we get to the #1 spot so we have the opportunity to take him. It probably is riskier to take a big man, but finding a serviceable point guard is an easier task than finding a decent big. Bogut seems like he has star potential, and he is a big that can truly score. Okafor didn't have thirty point nights, and was more of a defensive presence. Paul just does not dominate like Francis, Iverson, or even like Kenny Anderson did, and he does not seem to have the pure play making ability like Kidd, Stockton, or even TJ Ford. Bogut just seems to have the greater upside.

[Wretch]

I'm almost positive that he won't take Paul. I think it'll have more to do with size as it has affected smaller guards who were outstanding in college. He'll just as soon try to find the most talented player with the fewest issues...

That may include Bogut too... Even though there are lots of good things said about him, there's still that question mark that surrounds all decent big men that are projected to go high.

Personally, I'd like to go big in this draft if there is a capable player there. I like what I read about Bogut. I REALLY like Taft, but I don't like what I've read about his mental lapses. Most importantly, there are some quality PGs that could be had mid to late 1st that we might be able to move up and get...and there are a few guys that'll be on the market - namely Jaric, Jason Williams (I'd take either).

We'll just have to see.

[CBAreject]

nm

[Packfill]

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You don't think Bogut is Ewing or Shaq, but what have you seen that tells you Paul is Kidd or Nash? Paul supposedly plays against the toughest competition in the country, but when was the last time he dominated a game? All the guys who came out of high school dominated inferior competition, yet no one had a problem drafting any of them. There are people on this board who want the Hawks to draft another H.S. player this year. Who did Howard or Josh Smith play against last year in H.S.? Bogut would be great in any conference. I hate to say this, but it seems like Bogut is being compared to every white stiff who's ever played in the NBA. If Bogut was from Harlem instead of Austrailia, would there be a question about his ability? I'm not accusing anyone of anything, but it doesn't seem fair to me.

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Inever said Paul was going to be the next Kidd. Rather I said I rather draft the next Kidd instead of the next Michael Olowakandi. I also went on to say I did not know enough about any of the prospects to say any of them are can't miss prospects like a LeBron or Shaq. You need to work on your reading comprehension.

[Wretch]

But things are not equal on the draft board. You don't know how players are going to develop 2 or 3 years down the road. You have to take a close look at guys and decide which one you think will be the best choice - but throw size out the window because that has a good chance of coming back to bite you in the ass.

I've watched the draft closer than I've watched the NBA over the past two decades. There are a few things I've noticed. The first is that you don't go all out to secure a certain type of player unless he is a sure thing. Don't mistake certain things for that. An example of a sure thing would be LeBron James, Shaq, Iverson, or Duncan.

If it's Shaq vs. LeBron or Iverson vs. Duncan...TWO sure things in a draft, THEN you go out and take the big guy. That was the case with Yao and Jay Williams and Houston made the right call. All of these guys have absolutely no question marks surrounding thier game.

When you start having issues as to whether this guy is tall enough, or will this guy be another Koncak...then you don't have a sure thing and you don't have equality across the board. What you have is potential. In those cases, you have to be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. You have to look at talent and the best possible choice.

Trying to win is also a mistake. Not to sound cliche, but there is no try. You either do or you don't. You don't assume that you can go out there and win games. That's what Babcock did. He went out made a decent move, but then he wanted to finish building all in one stroke. Then he'd go out and sign a Big Dog or a Ken Norman...or he'd give up a lottery pick or two for a Lorenzen Wright. That's what leads to mediocrity. You become just good enough to compete and make the playoffs, and just bad enough to miss the lottery.

Yuck.

It's not about loving the lottery, it's about knowing where the talent comes from. There is no way around it. Nobody wins without players who come from the sweet spot in the draft. It is virtually impossible. It just doesn't happen. There used to be a concern that you'd draft someone then lose them to free agency, but the new CBA has almost completely blown that away.

Anyway, you just keep building until eventually, something changes. That's what happened in Miami, that's what happened in Chicago, that's what happened in Dallas. Once it happens THEN you try to improve the team to get it further.

One step at a time. We need to move slowly, add the right players, and WAIT for this team to figure out what it's going to be. It may take 3 more years, it may happen with an impact player in the draft. Nobody knows and trying to force the course for a quick turnaround is a good way to screw up the bigger plan.

[Diesel]

Like I said before, you have to look case by case.

Will Bogut be a dominant Big Man or would he be just solid?

You don't spend the #1 draft pick overall on JUST Solid. Pryz would be more than Just Solid and he will be a FA. I would rather get Pryz and draft the best impact player available weather it is Paul or M. Williams...

[Final_quest]

Pryz is somebody we would have to look at, but he is having a mini breakout season. His next contract will be around 5 million or more. Also, I don't think BK will sign Pryz because it would make him look stupid signing him for 3 times more than what he could have had him for last year. Everyone would be asking if he regrets not signing him when he had the chance. My prediction is that Pryz will not be here next season.

I would be in favor of bringing in Paul or Williams if I was confident they were the best impact players available. We can only speculate, but I am not convinced that Paul or Williams are higher impact players than Bogut.

[TheDude]

Williams could be a Smoove type impact player but he plays the same position...

[Inside_Man]

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and the only people he reminds me of are a much bulkier Kevin McHale

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Two words

Dave Cowens

He was one tough mofo in the middle.

[Employee8]

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and the only people he reminds me of are a much bulkier Kevin McHale

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Two words

Dave Cowens

He was one tough mofo in the middle.

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He was also one tough mofo on the sidelines(Coach), too.

[Diesel]

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I have watched him a few times and the only people he reminds me of are a much bulkier Kevin McHale

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Do you know how good Kevin McHale was?? There is no way in hell that this guy Bogut who I have seen a few times is in the same class as McHale. In fact, there are very few PFs now... that are in McHale's class. I hated the Celtics, but I respected them. McHale could put up 50 on any given night against better competition than we see today. Before there was a mailman, there was Kevin McHale and Mailman wished that he could play as good as McHale.

[BlackHawkDown]

I reiterate what I walways Say about you Diesel if you avoided your trade past. You would have the greatest record of post. Damn You called him out on this one

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Very few point guards(Devin Harris) make any impact before there 3rd or 4th year

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I take it you're talking about good PGs since you mentioned good Big men...

Well, let's look at the record: Centers vs. PGs...

2004:

Okafor, Araujo, Swift vs. Gordon, Livingston, Harris

2003:

Darko, Bosh, Kaman vs. Hinrich, Ford

2002:

Ming, Nene, Wilcox, Ely vs. Jay Williams

2001:

Curry, Diop, vs. No PGs..

2000:

Chris Mihm, Pryz vs. Dooling

1999:

Redojevick vs. Francis, Davis, Miller, Terry.

1998:

Olowakhandi, Lafrentz, Doleac vs. Bibby, Jason Williams,

Now... with the thorough understanding of draft history... back to 1998... we see clearly that the trend is that more PGs are higher impact than Cs... BUT obviously it's case by case... Still, the two that we will never know about are Jay Williams and TJ Ford... Although Ford was making an impact until he got hurt.

The moral of the story is finding these positions are hard so you don't want to pass up the next Jason Kidd by drafting Big Country...

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