Losing Al a positive or negitive?

[Peoriabird]

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'Claxton has something to do with that."

It's only 3 games. Speedy has been in the league 6 years now and has been a 40% shooter his entire career. His play so far has been about the same as his entire career.

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Enough of this B.S. Whatever!

[terrynoonan]

Totally a positive. There is no way we win this game last year. Speedy is a poor man's Jacque Vaughn. He is terrible! That's another thread though.

[TheDude]

Defense is more important than offense and so with that, Al leaving is a good thing.

I dont' care if Speedy is ONLY as good as Lue. Two Lue's is better than a Lue and a Ivey (and Joe Cool out of position).

[Guest Walter]

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It looks to me like the defense truly is better without Al Harrington... We've seen offensive struggles, but it isn't totally fair to give Al all the credit since his replacement has yet to play.

I think the loss has been a positive despite the offensive struggles. The team is moving the ball (even without a real gameplan)and I think Marvin will come in it will indeed show that the team is better without Al.

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You can't argue whether losing Al is a positive when you also include the play of a 5th overall pick and the development of a young team in the equation. Losing Al and gaining a 5th overall pick, etc....a positive? Maybe, if the pick is used correctly.

If Indy does as well with Harrington as they did with Peja, that might suggest a negative also.

Mind you, I wouldn't have wanted to pay much more for Harrington than Indy did, regardless.

W

[AHF]

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It looks to me like the defense truly is better without Al Harrington... We've seen offensive struggles, but it isn't totally fair to give Al all the credit since his replacement has yet to play.

I think the loss has been a positive despite the offensive struggles. The team is moving the ball (even without a real gameplan)and I think Marvin will come in it will indeed show that the team is better without Al.

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You can't argue whether losing Al is a positive when you also include the play of a 5th overall pick and the development of a young team in the equation.

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I think the development of our young players may be the single biggest reason people view his departure as a positive. Even before the draft, most people thought it was a good thing for this team because his departure translates into more time for Smoove, Chillz and Marvin.

[Guest Walter]

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I think the development of our young players may be the single biggest reason people view his departure as a positive. Even before the draft, most people thought it was a good thing for this team because his departure translates into more time for Smoove, Chillz and Marvin.

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The pick somehow ends up top 15 and we draft well. Alot of the cap savings will be eaten up in yearly salary increase next year so that's no benefit to the team. Otherwise, talent-wise we suffer by giving Al away.

I wonder why we didn't sign and trade Al for say Gooden. Both teams needed a Pf, just didn't quite like the one they had. Just a thought.

W

[AHF]

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I think the development of our young players may be the single biggest reason people view his departure as a positive. Even before the draft, most people thought it was a good thing for this team because his departure translates into more time for Smoove, Chillz and Marvin.

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The pick somehow ends up top 15 and we draft well. Alot of the cap savings will be eaten up in yearly salary increase next year so that's no benefit to the team. Otherwise, talent-wise we suffer by giving Al away.

I wonder why we didn't sign and trade Al for say Gooden. Both teams needed a Pf, just didn't quite like the one they had. Just a thought.

W

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If we don't view Josh Smith as a long-term talent upgrade from Al Harrington then letting him go was a terrible mistake. I think the Hawks need to make Marvin/Smith work as the forward combo for this team. In that sense, Al had no future in Atlanta because he would not be content to let either of them shine and would not resign cheaply.

[Final_quest]

If the Hawks continue to win with Speedy playing bad and Shelden not contributing offensively, it would make me wonder about Al. Scoring points is nice, but what if Al was not an efficient scorer? If he isn't what good is he for your team?

Is it possible that Al's "production" came at a cost of bad defense, mediocre rebounding, and less than average shot selection? If we continue to win as things are, I think people will have to admit that his "production" was not so productive after all.

[Peoriabird]

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but what if Al was not an efficient scorer?

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this is a retorical question right? We all know that Al was not an efficient player. His numbers always came at the expense of something else. Poor shooting, turnovers, bad defense etc.

[Final_quest]

rhetorical, yes

[Guest Walter]

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If we don't view Josh Smith as a long-term talent upgrade from Al Harrington then letting him go was a terrible mistake. I think the Hawks need to make Marvin/Smith work as the forward combo for this team.

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This is precisely the reason I don't understand why we drafted a Pf with the 5th overall pick. We needed a Pg or a center with this selection. If you weren't sold on Roy at Pg alongside JJ (besides your being a poor scout), trade down for Marcus Williams or Rondo. If you didn't think Sene was a #5 pick, trade down a little.

Honestly, I couldn't imagine passing on Roy. He was a sure thing as well as having upside as his game would translate well to the pros. But if you do then don't horrible address team positional needs and create more problems than you fix with the 5th pick in the draft. Don't tack onto that getting peanuts for Al.

This has all been said before, but this GM has ruined us by passing on the ROY, trading as a throw in the MIP, and likely passing upon this year's ROY. Sadly, both ROY played or can play positions of need. The only way BK could be worse would have been to resign Al to a high dollar deal A-N-D draft SW.

W

[Lascar78]

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This is precisely the reason I don't understand why we drafted a Pf with the 5th overall pick.

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Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

Our big problem was interior defense.

We had no defensive PF. Even if Smith succeeds at PF, his D overall is average (other than shotblocking at this point). And that left us with just smith-zaza at the 4-5. You need REAL backups in the NBA to win. Batista and the like are not real backups. Lorenzen Wright and either Smith or Shelden are real NBA backups.

You may assume that we could magically pick up Wilcox or Gooden because it is convenient to you.

Roy is the closest thing to a JJ clone in the whole league (not as talented of course). Just because he's putting up big stats with a green light doesn't mean that he would have fit in well here. And he sure wouldn't have helped our interior D.

[Guest Walter]

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Our big problem was interior defense...

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1) interior defense is best had at the center position.

2) Since we were going to get rid of AL in order for JS and MW to man the forward spots, we needed an interior defensive presence at the center position.

3) FAcy is the best, most assured, cheapest way to improve interior defense.

4) As everybody says, getting rid of Al improves our interior defense already.

5) SW has little upside, is well short of ideal for the position, has a short reach, isn't near athletic enough to compensate.

PJ Brown, Gooden, Wilcox even, Nene or Artest in a trade of Al earlier, Pryzbilla, Franciso Elson,...even Chandler, Ben Wallace, though unlikely, were available as FAs. Al was being traded. There are plenty of Pfs we could trade for as well.

The argument that we "need interior defense" and thus MUST take SW is the most inane false delimma. In fact, I would argue that we NEEDED a better interior defender or at least better interior defender prospect than SW. He's simply not that good.

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We had no defensive PF.

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We didn't have a defensive Pf the year before or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that. It's unbelievable that we managed to not draft a defensive Pf all these years given we didn't have one. I've got a brilliant idea. Why not have a Guiness and sign a FA Pf?

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Even if Smith succeeds at PF, his D overall is average (other than shotblocking at this point). And that left us with just smith-zaza at the 4-5. You need REAL backups in the NBA to win. Batista and the like are not real backups. Lorenzen Wright and either Smith or Shelden are real NBA backups.

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Do you mean to tell me we got a "real BU" in FAcy with Lo Wright for $3 [censored] million per year and yet you still justify drafting one at #5?!?

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You may assume that we could magically pick up Wilcox or Gooden because it is convenient to you.

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...and because they were FAs. I didn't know magic had anything to do with FAcy, but I listed other players, all certainly putting up far better numbers than Mr. Williams. I simply assume we SHOULD get a role playing, defensive Pf the same way we got a role playing defensive center in Lo.

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Roy is the closest thing to a JJ clone in the whole league (not as talented of course).

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I'd take the JJ/Roy back court with a waterbug Pg included over any in the league. Roy may be more talented than JJ. He's starting out hotter than JJ did as a rook and is already assuming Pg duties at crunch-time.

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Just because he's putting up big stats with a green light doesn't mean that he would have fit in well here. And he sure wouldn't have helped our interior D.

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I think he would have fit in even better. He and JJ would have killed teams. Both interchangably running the offense from posession to posession if we needed. Add Marvin in there and we have three guard to guard-like players capable of just about anything given their skill set. All you need is the right waterbug Pg (Speedy or Lue possibly) and you have an unstoppable trio of guards.

As far as the interior defense. Are you deaf? FAcy. Trade. It's not like when teams want a interior defense they first think "Man, if only I had a top 5 pick with which to get a role playing, BU caliber, defensive Pf". They think, "who is available in FAcy or through trade to fill this void short or long term"?

Drop the false delimma, realize you are arguing for the use of a 5th pick to acquire the same type of role player according to you that we got in FAcy for peanuts, and realize your only knock on Roy is he's doing so well he might not do so well for us. La-La-La-LAME!!!

W

[DrReality]

This question is not worthy of much consideration. No brainer.

[Lascar78]

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1) interior defense is best had at the center position.

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Yes, and if any centers were available that were nearly as talented as Shelden, we would have gotten them. Sene is nowhere near as talented and Bynum was nowhere near available no matter what you think

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2) Since we were going to get rid of AL in order for JS and MW to man the forward spots, we needed an interior defensive presence at the center position.

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We could use a michael jordan clone too. I prefer to focus on what was available.

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3) FAcy is the best, most assured, cheapest way to improve interior defense.

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WRONG! Defensive bigs are hard to come by. We got Wright because he already had atlanta ties, and he is a defensive veteran, but you are not going to get big players with potential and/or talent. And you certainly don't want to gamble on getting one, leaving the possibility open that you get no one very good and still have the same hole as last year.

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4) As everybody says, getting rid of Al improves our interior defense already.

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Yes, getting rid of Al took us from a 1/10 on defense to a 5/10 on defense. If we wanted to accomplish anything, we needed much more help especially on the inside, which shelden and lo go a long way to accomplish

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5) SW has little upside, is well short of ideal for the position, has a short reach, isn't near athletic enough to compensate.

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SW has a lot of upside and is as athletic as nearly anyone in this draft. What he lacks in height he largely makes up for in strength and technique, much like ben wallace. He is not perfect for us due to height just like Roy is not perfect because he duplicates our best player. We went with the one that adressed need #1.

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PJ Brown, Gooden, Wilcox even, Nene or Artest in a trade of Al earlier, Pryzbilla, Franciso Elson,...even Chandler, Ben Wallace, though unlikely, were available as FAs. Al was being traded. There are plenty of Pfs we could trade for as well.

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This isn't fantasy hoops. You have to find trade partners. You throw these BS trade scenarios in your posts that could never happen and base your logic on them. Like Bynum being available after 1 year. It's nonsense and in the real world, very few to no big men would have been available to us. The only one of these guys that we know we could have had is Nene. And we only could have had him if we gave him a monster deal, that I for one would not have paid for him, and I am a big fan of the guy. Would you pay Nene 60 million? Do you honestly think we could have gotten Ben Wallace? Of course not but it's more convenient to act like you do.

The odds of us finding a big interior defender that is as talented as speedy claxton this offseason were very poor.

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The argument that we "need interior defense" and thus MUST take SW is the most inane false delimma. In fact, I would argue that we NEEDED a better interior defender or at least better interior defender prospect than SW. He's simply not that good.

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Ummm, ok. You're simply wrong, and are once again judging a player's career a couple of games in. What else is new? Shelden is very good and has done extremely well on the defensive side even though it doesnt show up in the books.

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We didn't have a defensive Pf the year before or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that. It's unbelievable that we managed to not draft a defensive Pf all these years given we didn't have one. I've got a brilliant idea. Why not have a Guiness and sign a FA Pf?

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We didn't have one because we couldn't find one. Signing good FA defensive bigs is much harder than you think. You can't just choose to get Ben Wallace or Chandler just like you can't just choose to sign Erik Dampier. The only opportunity we've had of getting a defensive player as talented as Shelden is probably in last year's draft and we gambled on Marvin's potential instead. Only in your mind does our inability to acquire a defensive PF until now somehow highlight that defensive PF's are easy to go out and sign. Amazing.

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Do you mean to tell me we got a "real BU" in FAcy with Lo Wright for $3 [censored] million per year and yet you still justify drafting one at #5?!?

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There are two kinds of backups, temporary ones and part of your core for the future. Lorenzen is a backup caliber in the NBA, he is not a building block. We need an interior defender as part of our core for the future. We had none, and need one LONG TERM if Zaza is to be the starting C of our future.

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...and because they were FAs. I didn't know magic had anything to do with FAcy, but I listed other players, all certainly putting up far better numbers than Mr. Williams. I simply assume we SHOULD get a role playing, defensive Pf the same way we got a role playing defensive center in Lo.

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We needed someone who could contribute more than Lo in the long term. We don't know if Smith can be a starting PF. We now know that our young core will have the two forward spots locked. We also needed a lot more help than just Lo. He is on the lower end of the backup bigs that were available this summer. Not to mention it was easier to get him because of atlanta ties.

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I'd take the JJ/Roy back court with a waterbug Pg included over any in the league. Roy may be more talented than JJ. He's starting out hotter than JJ did as a rook and is already assuming Pg duties at crunch-time.

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I don't even know why I'm arguing with you if you think that Roy may be more talented than JJ right now. That's not even close to possible. Last year showed us that our offense suffered by having JJ playing point because he is not a point guard. He gets 5 apg but is NOT a point guard. Just like JJ. In the end we would go back to using a traditional PG, putting (GASP) OUR #5 PICK ON THE BENCH (What a catastrophy! Depth!). The difference is that the route we chose adressed our biggest need.

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I think he would have fit in even better. He and JJ would have killed teams. Both interchangably running the offense from posession to posession if we needed.

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Did you watch last season or just read box scores? Please tell me why we failed miserably with JJ as PG but would succeed with Roy.

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As far as the interior defense. Are you deaf? FAcy. Trade. It's not like when teams want a interior defense they first think "Man, if only I had a top 5 pick with which to get a role playing, BU caliber, defensive Pf". They think, "who is available in FAcy or through trade to fill this void short or long term"?

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Hey Monday Morning Quarterback just because you think teams are dying to trade talented big men to us or that the rare big men free agents are dying to come here doesn't make it so. Perhaps you don't remember but until last offseason most every article and fan (including many here) thought we would never sign a half decent player to come here. We pulled a coup and got JJ in here, but reality is still that it's hard for a bottom 4 team to attract players, especially when they have a reputation for having a city full of fans who, just like you, would rather knock the team, the young draft picks and the managers (from home of course), rather than go to the games, cheer the team on and look at the positives of the young talent we're building with. We had zero chance at Ben Wallace. We had zero chance at Pryz who didn't want to come back here. Artest is not a big and plays on the perimeter. Chandler was not a free agent and had $54 million left on his contract which he is not worth at all. Nene got $60 million and is not worth it at all. You can make BS lists all you want but it is very hard to get talented young bigs with potential without sacrificing your entire future.

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Drop the false delimma, realize you are arguing for the use of a 5th pick to acquire the same type of role player according to you that we got in FAcy for peanuts, and realize your only knock on Roy is he's doing so well he might not do so well for us.

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I never said that they were the same type of role player at all. I said you need depth and we had zero. Now we have a legit yet very average backup center in Lo Wright, and one very good backup PF as part of our young core in either Smith or Shelden.

The bottom line is that it is highly likely that Roy-JJ would not have functioned well as a winning backcourt other than individual scoring (as opposed to winning). If that's the case, drafting either Roy or Shelden would have pushed a young gun to the bench. We adressed the need.

The only young player with the POTENTIAL to truly adress our need without pushing anyone to the bench was Foye as he can be a real PG and compliment JJ's game.

You never know what will happen in free agency / trade attempts. You might have only one option and get lucky, and you might have 15 guys in mind, none of which decide to come to the hawks, just like scores of other players who have turned down our money in the past. We decided that it was better not to risk ending up with no REAL help at our area of weakness with 2 targets at the PG (Cassell, Speedy). I'm fine with that. I would have taken Foye, but I think Shelden makes sense given the difficulty of signing real big men.

Also, FYI, a player's career is not determined by his first 3 games.

[Johnnybravo4]

Well said Las, and the vaunted Ben Wallace avg damn near nothing his first 5 years in the NBA...and he doesn't even want to give Shelden 5 games

[AtLaS]

In '04 it was Childress, last year Marvin, and now Shelden, you always bash to no end. You find a way to Hijack every thread and turn it into a Shelden bashing.

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1) interior defense is best had at the center position.

2) Since we were going to get rid of AL in order for JS and MW to man the forward spots, we needed an interior defensive presence at the center position.

3) FAcy is the best, most assured, cheapest way to improve interior defense.

4) As everybody says, getting rid of Al improves our interior defense already.

5) SW has little upside, is well short of ideal for the position, has a short reach, isn't near athletic enough to compensate.

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1) interior defense is interior defense I don't care where we get it from.

2) I agree, but there were no cheap and reasonable options available. Sene wouldn't have helped for 3 years, we can't wait for that (that's IF he ever develops).

3) Cheapest? Most assured? Who would we have gotten? Smoove is twice the defender as Gooden or Wilcox RIGHT NOW, even at the PF position. Gooden and Wilcox aren't half as strong as Shelden, and they've both been in the league for like 4 years.

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PJ Brown, Gooden, Wilcox even, Nene or Artest in a trade of Al earlier, Pryzbilla, Franciso Elson,...even Chandler, Ben Wallace, though unlikely, were available as FAs. Al was being traded. There are plenty of Pfs we could trade for as well.

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Wow.. PJ Brown, Gooden, and Wilcox. This is just funny. What do you do when PJ retires next year? BTW check Chicago's boards and see just how impressive he's been. Pryzbilla would have never came back to Atlanta, besides he's still overpaid, and he's a foul MACHINE, wait til this year pans out last year was a fluke. Not to mention we would be avg. about 60 ppg as a team if Pryz was our Center. Zaza is keeping us in games with his Offense right now, regardless of how he's getting his points. Chandler??? Ben Wallace??? I couldn't IMAGINE how bad your bashing would be had we paid either one of them 60 million.

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The argument that we "need interior defense" and thus MUST take SW is the most inane false delimma. In fact, I would argue that we NEEDED a better interior defender or at least better interior defender prospect than SW. He's simply not that good.

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I don't remember anyone saying we MUST take SW. I agree with you that BK didn't tryout enough people and that was a mistake.

How is we "need interior defense" an inane false delimma? Did you watch a game last year? I can't believe you went there.

How is SW not that good? Because he doesn't put up big numbers? Obviously from your POV. How about who has put up numbers against him? Webber went 4/16, Howard was held to 11/8 when he had 20/10 the first 2 games, you saw what Dwight did to Big Ben. Channing Frye was nowhere to be found. I realize he's only playing about 15-20 minutes/game but they aren't scoring when he's in there. I know you aren't gonna come back and say that Zaza can actually play D, or Smoove(nothing but a shotblocker) is stopping people, but you will anyway.

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We didn't have a defensive Pf the year before or the year before that or the year before that or the year before that. It's unbelievable that we managed to not draft a defensive Pf all these years given we didn't have one. I've got a brilliant idea. Why not have a Guiness and sign a FA Pf?

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Again, no good and affordable options available. Please drop the Wilcox and Gooden arguments..

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All certainly putting up far better numbers than Mr. Williams.

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Again, numbers are the only thing you care about. If that was the case we should have DEFINATELY kept Harrington. Here's a number, we are only giving up 87.5 ppg, which is first in the league. All three teams we've played are averaging over 100 ppg. All the good PF's we've played against have had horrible games. Take it how you want it but that's saying something.

Last year the only way we could win was to be on FIRE on offense, this year we haven't even gotten our offense going and are 2-1, and still don't have Marvin. I'd much rather be a more defensive team than have a flashy player that puts up numbers who does NOTHING for our interior Defense, which was BY FAR our biggest problem.

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Roy may be more talented than JJ. He's starting out hotter than JJ did as a rook and is already assuming Pg duties at crunch-time.

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Walter you are killing yourself. May be more talented than JJ? You are saying this after THREE games in the league? Do not compare their rookie seasons, look at the teams they were on. JJ was on Boston (a 50 win team) that went to the ECF. Roy is on a Portland team that has nothing BUT young players, someone on their team has to put up those numbers. BTW no he is not ready to handle pg duties, especially not in the NBA. Portland has their own JJ (Jack) to handle them. We don't need Joe handling the pg, look how good he's been since moving to the 2. Not to mention Roy would be downright ABUSED on defense by opposing NBA pg's.

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He and JJ would have killed teams. Both interchangably running the offense from posession to posession if we needed.

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And Roy would have gotten killed by opposing PG's. I do think he would be a good SG but neither him nor JJ can guard a quick opposing PG. Someone like Mo Williams would have 20 points and 10 dimes against us, just like last year. Not to mention Roy does NOTHING for our Interior D..

Sorry for the long post..

[drzachary]

I'm not huge on the criticism that we "should have worked out more players." If anything, the workouts can mislead you about a player's true ability, and they are relied upon TOO heavily.

[Diesel]

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This is precisely the reason I don't understand why we drafted a Pf with the 5th overall pick.

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What's not to understand. Josh Smith nor Marvin Williams are post defenders. We needed an interior presence. While you might not like Shelden because he doesn't score 20 ppg, Shelden for us contributes a lot more than Roy would have. Roy would not have gotten off the bench. Here's why:

He doesn't know how to run a pro offense. Dribbling up and shooting the ball is what he can now.. that's not running an offense. Joe Johnson doesn't want to run the offense. If he did, we'd certainly have JJ and JC as our 1 and 2 and we would outsize every guard combo in the league. So, while Roy was on the bench, who would have played Physical defense in the post?

Hopefully, by Midseason, you will have grown to appreciate Shelden's contribution.

[Diesel]

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3) FAcy is the best, most assured, cheapest way to improve interior defense.

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Damn Walt...

YOU'RE just talking right?? I mean, you don't give a damn about the facts huh??

Ok, let's go down the line of the top of my head:

Eric Dampier: 7 years 73 million dollars

Hawks had a shot.... NOT...

Carlos Boozer: 6 years 68 million dollars

Ask the Cavs about the price of FA Bigs.

Kmart: 7 years 76 million dollars.

We had a shot at this free agent too... remember.

Chris Kaman: 5 years 50 Million dollars

This is the extension offered by the clipps.

Vlad Radmanovich: 6 yr 48 million dollars

Is he worth it?

Even a third string Center like Gadzuric is getting 6 years 42 million dollars.

Where are all these cheap bigs that you're talking about... and when are they changing teams??

You must be refering to us getting Papa Sow or Melvin Ely or KhandiMan??