Who is your GM: Babcock or BK...

[Diesel]

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Corbin was the glue guy who held our offense and defense together.

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Holy Snapper.... Shut the front door!!!

Forget about Mookie and Deke on Defense.

Forget about Mookie and Smitty on offense.

Without Ty Corbin, those 50 win teams would have went to pot!!!

Ty Corbin was exceedingly mediocre. He played 32 mpg with us, put up 9 points and 4.5 rebounds.... and shot 42% from the field. He averaged 1 steal per game and 0.1 bpg...

I hate to break it to you and kill your sacred cow, but we could have found a whole lot of guys who could have done a whole lot more for this team.

That same year!!!

Ced Ceballos: 15 ppg, 6.5 rpg, shooting 46%.

Big Nasty: 11 ppg, 9.4 rpg, shooting 49.8%.

That's with less minutes.

Hell even George Lynch and Donny Marshall would have done more than Ty with those minutes.

[TroyMcClure]

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Hey again i'm not a BK fan by any means I just find it laughable that Ron is saying Babcock is so much better. They are both horrible GM's in my book.

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What's laughable is that you can't refute one point he makes, and still you say Bk is better. You have already said that you were young in the 90's. You don't know what you're talking about. It's people like you that make this town have a bad fan reputation. You're too stupid to know we used to be in the playoffs. Virtually every year. Usually a 4 or 5 seed. We are in our 8th year of misery. Any REAL fan knows Babcock was a good NBA Gm. He gambled at the end and failed. I was not his biggest fan, but look at the numbers. Are you an idiot?

[TexasPete]

This is like choosing between herpes and crabs...

[TroyMcClure]

Excellent posts. Babcock by a landslide. Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation. Look at the numbers.

[Diesel]

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Any REAL fan knows Babcock was a good NBA Gm.

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Is one of the jobs of the GM to draft good players?

Is another one to manage the salary cap?

How about signing good players to reasonable contracts?

I think you need to separate what Kasten did and how he set the table for Babcock vs. What Babcock actually did.

I think when you look over the History of Babcock, he made 4 good moves total.

1. The Mookie trade. (this of course after the horrible Rumeal Robinson pick).

2. The Deke signing.

3. Getting Steve Smith and Grant Long for Kevin Willis.

4. Getting Laettner for Spud.

But after those 4 things, I can show you probably 16 dumb moves that he made that really screwed up the Hawks future.

trading Smitty for JR.

trading Nique for nothing..

as a start... If you need the other 14, I can rattle those off too.

That's from a real fan!

[AHF]

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Excellent posts. Babcock by a landslide. Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation. Look at the numbers.

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Number of hall of famers on the team when he took over (2)? Number of playoff seasons before he took over? (7 of 8 years)? Number of lottery picks he blew with bad picks or trades (5)? Number he didn't (1)? Number of first round picks he blew (13)? Number he didn't (1)?

(To be fair, you can make arguments that the Augman and Hendu picks were not blown. Also to be fair, you can add in another first rounder for Dan Dickau if you want for the blown column.)

Despite your insulting comments and the lack of substance in your post, I think you find yourself in the minority by arguing that a GM who couldn't draft and who had a mixed record in FA and trades is better suited to take over an expansion team than one who at least has consistently gotten useful players in the draft.

[Guest Walter]

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I was really hurt after reading about the Ced Ceballos incident. Our front office got a reputation for being inept.

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I remember that but it paled in comparison to the JJ and Al Harrington fiascos current ownership and management have managed. If I were a legit FA, even with our remaining cap space, I'd run not walk to another team.

W

[Sothron]

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Excellent posts. Babcock by a landslide. Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation. Look at the numbers.

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Thank you. I don't know why some people who clearly don't remember or didn't research the argument jump into a debate and insist on one point of view and not offer a real defense of their own argument. Babcock's record clearly shows he was a good general manager who unfortunately had some trades (and a coaching hire to be frank) blow up at the end. Knight has done nothing and I have to emphasize NOTHING to compare to Babcock's accomplishments.

[DrReality]

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This is like choosing between herpes and crabs...

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Or a root canal or a visit to the proctologist.

[gutz]

Hey idiot I said I was young and yes I did follow the Hawks during the Mookie and Smitty days. All i'm saying is yeah we made the playoffs 5yrs in the 90's and lost in either the 1st or 2nd round every time with a huge payroll. To me who cares if you make the playoffs and lose every time never advancing close to the finals. SO don't question my intellect on the Hawks. I've followed this team since the early 90's clown and know more about them then you obviously. I think I refuted a lot of his points. Babcock was the worst GM I've ever known when it comes to drafting. Have you not looked at his draft record dumbarse!! Give me a break. This is the same GM that traded Nique for nothing, traded for Rider and Big Dog and draft Cal Bowlder with a 1st round pick. Sorry but this guy set our franchise back a decade with his moves towards the end of his tenure. I also never said BK was better than him. They BOTH suck. Sothron is the one that came on here touting Babcock as a good GM not me.

[Sothron]

Gutzy name one team in the 1990's that beat the Bulls in the playoffs with Jordan. Name ONE TEAM.

[hawkman]

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I was really hurt after reading about the Ced Ceballos incident. Our front office got a reputation for being inept.

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I remember that but it paled in comparison to the JJ and Al Harrington fiascos current ownership and management have managed. If I were a legit FA, even with our remaining cap space, I'd run not walk to another team.

W

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That whole Harrington thing made us look pretty bad. Harrington was a pretty class guy when he was here and I hated to see things go like they did in the end for him. The last time we played Indiana, Harrington stated that he flat out did not like BK or have any respect for him. Personally, I don't blame him. Stringing players and other GM's along like that is a good way to get a bad rep in the league. I'm surprised that any team would want to deal with the Hawks at this point.

[Guest Walter]

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That whole Harrington thing made us look pretty bad. Harrington was a pretty class guy when he was here and I hated to see things go like they did in the end for him. The last time we played Indiana, Harrington stated that he flat out did not like BK or have any respect for him. Personally, I don't blame him. Stringing players and other GM's along like that is a good way to get a bad rep in the league. I'm surprised that any team would want to deal with the Hawks at this point.

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It's easy to clean up such a rep, though. Fire BK unceremoniously.

W

[AHF]

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Excellent posts. Babcock by a landslide. Anyone who disagrees isn't smart enough to be in the conversation. Look at the numbers.

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Thank you. I don't know why some people who clearly don't remember or didn't research the argument jump into a debate and insist on one point of view and not offer a real defense of their own argument. Babcock's record clearly shows he was a good general manager who unfortunately had some trades (and a coaching hire to be frank) blow up at the end. Knight has done nothing and I have to emphasize NOTHING to compare to Babcock's accomplishments.

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No one better exemplifies that criticism on this thread more than Troy McClure (despite the excellent name choice).

[AHF]

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Gutzy name one team in the 1990's that beat the Bulls in the playoffs with Jordan. Name ONE TEAM.

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1995 Orlando Magic over Chicago Bulls

Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, and 4.5 apg in the playoffs.

[Guest]

This thread is priceless. You have broken records like Gutzy who are like talking to a brick wall that make this thread absolutely hillarious. Then you have substance with banter between Sothron and AHF, Diesel, and Teke. Just a great thread.

My take is that Sothron is right on with Babcock being underrated on the board, but he is making him out to be a little better than what he actually was. Which I don't know why he is doing that in this thread, when you have someone in competition for a job against BK all you need to do is show that they can color within the lines.

But to sum up this whole debate, I think TexasPete hit it on the nail, "This is like choosing between herpes and crabs...". I'll take the Babcrabs...

[drzachary]

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But to sum up this whole debate, I think TexasPete hit it on the nail, "This is like choosing between herpes and crabs...". I'll take the Babcrabs...

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Ha! "Babcrabs!" That would make BK the herpes, which is an apt comparison: whether or not you know about it, or care about it, or want it: you have probably already got it.

[Sothron]

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Gutzy name one team in the 1990's that beat the Bulls in the playoffs with Jordan. Name ONE TEAM.

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1995 Orlando Magic over Chicago Bulls

Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, and 4.5 apg in the playoffs.

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So all Babcock needed to do was draft Shaq, Penny Hardaway before his injuries ruined his career, sign Horace Grant away from the Bulls, draft Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott and we would have lost to the Rockets too.

That damned Babcock. How dare he not draft Shaq and Penny!

[AHF]

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Gutzy name one team in the 1990's that beat the Bulls in the playoffs with Jordan. Name ONE TEAM.

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1995 Orlando Magic over Chicago Bulls

Jordan averaged 31.5 ppg, 6.5 rpg, and 4.5 apg in the playoffs.

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So all Babcock needed to do was draft Shaq, Penny Hardaway before his injuries ruined his career, sign Horace Grant away from the Bulls, draft Nick Anderson and Dennis Scott and we would have lost to the Rockets too.

That damned Babcock. How dare he not draft Shaq and Penny!

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Why do you even ask these questions? Of course the Jordan Bulls were better than everyone else.

The Hawks were eliminated under Babcock by the:

No playoffs 1990

Pistons in 1991

No playoffs 1992

Bulls in 1993

Pacers in 1994

Pacers in 1995

Magic in 1996

Bulls in 1997

Hornets in 1998

Knicks in 1999

What is the point of comparing the Bulls and Hawks in depth when they only faced eachother in the playoffs twice in the 1990s?

[Sothron]

Because you among others keep claiming those teams "only made it to the first or second round" while totally leaving out the fact the Bulls in the 90's beat every team they played in the playoffs except the first year Jordan was back from retirement. What else did anyone do besides Orlando in one year in the 90's do to upset them? Why should Babcock be held to a standard no one managed to do?