Pro/Anti-Tank: Is there a real side to choose?

[Diesel]

Ah...

But teams like Dallas and Phoenix just didn't start being winners. They had to learn to be winners. Look over the Mavericks history. They've had talent (more talent than they have now) and they missed the bus. But that experience let them know what to do next. Even now... last year they finally got to the championship game. They come back this year with a different style of confidence beating everybody in their path. Last night, they started off down by 30 against the Suns. By the end of the game, they were winning by 12. How do you get to that point? Gradually. Learning how to play with won another but more importantly how to win together.

Our guys have had different personnell since they have been here. Finally, they've gotten to a place where they can put wins together. Just last year, we couldn't win more than 2 games in a row... Now, we're learning to string together wins... Even without JJ. That's that gradual things going on.

Yes, coaching is needed. Yes, we may need some better players... but we're learning how to win...

[Diesel]

We've been in the lottery 3 years now...

You talked about San Antonio and 3 teams who haven't won nothing.

What about Detroit?

They are a championship quality team. What did the lottery do for them.

What about Dallas?

Which lottery player turned that team into a championship quality team.

How about Phoenix?

You don't have to get the first pick of the draft to put a championship team on the floor. I remember all the hype for Bogut. How has Bogut made Milwaukee a championship team?

If you want to go on and on, we can go on and on down the line.

More interesting is the fact that there are NO Guarantees for US.

If we fall out of the top 3, we're not going to get the #4, 5, or 6 pick. That puts a cruel point on the end of tanking. If we were guaranteed something, I would probably be for tanking, but we have no guarantees and our chances of getting nothing ARE GREATER than our chances of getting Oden.

[Buzzard]

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I would probably be for tanking, but we have no guarantees and our chances of getting nothing ARE GREATER than our chances of getting Oden

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You can blame BK for that one. Top three protected vs Top ten protected ala his deal with Indy and Harrington.

BK has no excuses anymore. He has three top ten picks, a great mid-level pick, and a free agent all-star sighning. If he cannot put together a playoff team with all that going for him, he will just have to start looking for another job.

[macdaddy]

What's the difference between this team getting 35 wins and making the playoffs and getting 35 wins and missing the playoffs?

One of these you'd be happy with and one you'd be mad? Our team would be the same team with the same talent. Yet you'd be happier with the the 35 win playoff team that has no chance at a pick than a 35 win non-playoff team that still has a chance at a pick. That make no sense.

[AHF]

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What about Dallas?

Which lottery player turned that team into a championship quality team.

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Lottery pick Dirk Nowitzki is the MVP candidate that the Mavericks are built around. He isn't enough on him own to win an NBA championship but no one is.

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How about Phoenix?

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Lottery picks Amare Stoudemire and Shawn Marion are the two essential cogs on this team other than Nash.

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You don't have to get the first pick of the draft to put a championship team on the floor.

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Agreed you just need the right picks. Much better to have the #5 pick and Dwayne Wade than the #2 pick and Darko Milicic.

[Packfill]

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I ask given the above info why wouldn't you want as many ping pong balls going into the lottery you see what it has done for the teams I mentioned above.Durant and Oden are franchise players and can put a good young team on the road to greatness.

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Oden and Durant are the best freshman players in the country. That doesn't mean they are can't miss future HOFers.

We don't even need a can't miss future HOFer. All we need is decent starting material. We have the potential star power at the 2-4 spots.

If we were 10 games out of the playoffs, and that worst record in the league was within our grasp, sure of course I'd be for tanking.

I was angry when the Hawks didn't do poorly down the stretch in 2002. They had nothing to play for. No playoff chances, no young nucleus, no signs of any promise.

But this is different. The playoff spot is well within grasp. We do have a young nucleus that needs all the experience they can get. We have a rising star player that we need to give all the motivation to stay on this team that we can.

If we were to tank and lose Josh Smith, then what?

Then the franchise is set back for another 5 years potentially.

Or if we just are freaking patient and wait one more year where Marvin can have a breakout season like Smoove had this year and where Smoove can have a full season like he's had in the last couple of months, with the return of Joe Johnson, and possibly a bigger, stronger Solomon Jones, we could be a playoff team for sure next season WITHOUT Oden or Durant.

A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

[AHF]

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A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

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It will be interesting to see if they resign Felton.

Personally, I don't think May will be more than a mediocre pro. Felton and Okafor are very nice pieces.

[drzachary]

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A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

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It will be interesting to see if they resign Felton.

Personally, I don't think May will be more than a mediocre pro. Felton and Okafor are very nice pieces.

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May seems like a Shelden-type player, in terms of ability and ceiling, in my opinion.

[Packfill]

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A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

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It will be interesting to see if they resign Felton.

Personally, I don't think May will be more than a mediocre pro. Felton and Okafor are very nice pieces.

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May seems like a Shelden-type player, in terms of ability and ceiling, in my opinion.

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Agreed, but I think May is better offensively while Sheldon has more potential as a defender.

[TroyMcClure]

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I ask given the above info why wouldn't you want as many ping pong balls going into the lottery you see what it has done for the teams I mentioned above.Durant and Oden are franchise players and can put a good young team on the road to greatness.

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Oden and Durant are the best freshman players in the country. That doesn't mean they are can't miss future HOFers.

We don't even need a can't miss future HOFer. All we need is decent starting material. We have the potential star power at the 2-4 spots.

If we were 10 games out of the playoffs, and that worst record in the league was within our grasp, sure of course I'd be for tanking.

I was angry when the Hawks didn't do poorly down the stretch in 2002. They had nothing to play for. No playoff chances, no young nucleus, no signs of any promise.

But this is different. The playoff spot is well within grasp. We do have a young nucleus that needs all the experience they can get. We have a rising star player that we need to give all the motivation to stay on this team that we can.

If we were to tank and lose Josh Smith, then what?

Then the franchise is set back for another 5 years potentially.

Or if we just are freaking patient and wait one more year where Marvin can have a breakout season like Smoove had this year and where Smoove can have a full season like he's had in the last couple of months, with the return of Joe Johnson, and possibly a bigger, stronger Solomon Jones, we could be a playoff team for sure next season WITHOUT Oden or Durant.

A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

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Morrison is the most overhyped piece of crap I have ever seen. I guarantee you he could play no other sport. He can't even bend his legs! He can't play defense in this one. He's selfish and soft. Just watch him try to run up the floor. It is definitely not "effortless". He runs and moves on the court like someone with no clue of what being an athlete is. I'm telling you, the guy probably can't even throw a spiral.

On to the "stache". Here is my biggest peeve. He has that nasty facial hair you can only get by not shaving after 14 or 15. He's too much of a wuss to shave. He's wanted to look "tough" his whole life. Any real man knows that when you continue to shave, your stubble becomes thicker. He was too impatient for this. He had to have a "stache" since he was a kid. What a joke.

Anyone who doesn't play defense and then cries on tv when they lose, is an absolute joke. Also, anyone who says crap like "welcome to Spokane, we get all the calls." is not someone I want on my team. I think only people who play defense have a right to get hyped up. It's hard to respect somone's "hype" when they show no respect for the effort the rest of his team is giving. He's like a 10 year old, he has to have the ball. He does nothing without it. Except trying to get it.

Sorry, I know I went on a tangent. I just really dislike the way that guy plays.

[AtLaS]

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I ask given the above info why wouldn't you want as many ping pong balls going into the lottery you see what it has done for the teams I mentioned above.Durant and Oden are franchise players and can put a good young team on the road to greatness.

---

Oden and Durant are the best freshman players in the country. That doesn't mean they are can't miss future HOFers.

We don't even need a can't miss future HOFer. All we need is decent starting material. We have the potential star power at the 2-4 spots.

If we were 10 games out of the playoffs, and that worst record in the league was within our grasp, sure of course I'd be for tanking.

I was angry when the Hawks didn't do poorly down the stretch in 2002. They had nothing to play for. No playoff chances, no young nucleus, no signs of any promise.

But this is different. The playoff spot is well within grasp. We do have a young nucleus that needs all the experience they can get. We have a rising star player that we need to give all the motivation to stay on this team that we can.

If we were to tank and lose Josh Smith, then what?

Then the franchise is set back for another 5 years potentially.

Or if we just are freaking patient and wait one more year where Marvin can have a breakout season like Smoove had this year and where Smoove can have a full season like he's had in the last couple of months, with the return of Joe Johnson, and possibly a bigger, stronger Solomon Jones, we could be a playoff team for sure next season WITHOUT Oden or Durant.

A team like Charlotte is a team that should tank for Oden or Durant. They don't have 3+ promising pieces of the future. We do.

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Um, Charlotte has Okafor, Wallace, Felton, May and Morrison. Morrison was a big mistake but the other guys are all very talented.

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Morrison is the most overhyped piece of crap I have ever seen. I guarantee you he could play no other sport. He can't even bend his legs! He can't play defense in this one. He's selfish and soft. Just watch him try to run up the floor. It is definitely not "effortless". He runs and moves on the court like someone with no clue of what being an athlete is. I'm telling you, the guy probably can't even throw a spiral.

On to the "stache". Here is my biggest peeve. He has that nasty facial hair you can only get by not shaving after 14 or 15. He's too much of a wuss to shave. He's wanted to look "tough" his whole life. Any real man knows that when you continue to shave, your stubble becomes thicker. He was too impatient for this. He had to have a "stache" since he was a kid. What a joke.

Anyone who doesn't play defense and then cries on tv when they lose, is an absolute joke. Also, anyone who says crap like "welcome to Spokane, we get all the calls." is not someone I want on my team. I think only people who play defense have a right to get hyped up. It's hard to respect somone's "hype" when they show no respect for the effort the rest of his team is giving. He's like a 10 year old, he has to have the ball. He does nothing without it. Except trying to get it.

Sorry, I know I went on a tangent. I just really dislike the way that guy plays.

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Talk about a personal attack, damn. I'm sure he was no wussy in high school as you speak of, he's 6'8 and an athlete, who's gonna talk trash to him? Who cares if he cried on national TV, I mean I wouldn't have but tons of people have. Michael Jordan cried when he won his first NBA title, did that make him a wuss?

[BusBoyIsBack]

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You can blame BK for that one. Top three protected vs Top ten protected ala his deal with Indy and Harrington.

BK has no excuses anymore. He has three top ten picks, a great mid-level pick, and a free agent all-star sighning. If he cannot put together a playoff team with all that going for him, he will just have to start looking for another job.

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Ever consider the fact that Indy wouldn't make a top 3 protected deal? That they only would have made the top 10 protected deal?

As far as no excuses for BK anymore, sure we've been in the lottery long enough to get the corp pieces of a playoff team. But considering that these pieces are 20, 21, and 22 and the oldest one is a rookie at 23, don't you think you're being a little unrealistic expecting to be a playoff team this early?

Look at the age and experience of playoff teams around the league. None of them are as inexperienced as us, not even close.

Sure we need a couple more pieces, but more than anything we need more experience so our players can become more consistent.

If Marvin blossoms next year like Smoove did this year, and if Smoove continues to blossom from the get go showing more signs of consistency, JJ will have a helluva lot of help next year. Not to mention Solomon Jones could very well put on a lot of weight and gain strength. Not to mention Shelden could be healthy next year. Not to mention the possible improvement of someone like Salim. Not to mention the piece we could add with Indy's pick.

Yes the future of this team is very bright.

If you can't see it's because you're blinded by your pessimism.

[Wretch]

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What's the difference between this team getting 35 wins and making the playoffs and getting 35 wins and missing the playoffs?

One of these you'd be happy with and one you'd be mad?

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Quote me where I said I would be mad?

I did say that at the beginning of the season, I had a strong desire to see this team in the playoffs. If they somehow make the playoffs, I'll still be happy with them.

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Yet you'd be happier with the the 35 win playoff team that has no chance at a pick than a 35 win non-playoff team that still has a chance at a pick. That make no sense.

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Again, quote me where I said any of this?

I did say this:

Once it became apparent that this team had no idea what IT wanted to do, it made more sense to forget that idea and move forward with securing capital. Pie-in-the-sky savior or no.

Translation: Tank it long before now when we had a better chance to secure a top pick.

But to answer your question...

Miss the playoffs and have no pick or make the playoffs and have no pick...

Hmmm...not a very difficult choice to understand there.

[Wretch]

Very few teams just instantly become winners. Perhaps New Jersey with the acquisition of Kidd a few years ago and Orlando when they drafted Penny. Both situations though, are examples of a team getting the right pieces vs. confidence.

Dallas?

What happened to Dirk? Did he get confident, or has he always had the ability to make shots. Did he feel better about his shots, or did he work on his already incredible potential? Did Dallas build a team spirit and grow...or did Cuban take a passion with his team and add the right pieces?

It is a combination of all of that, but I put FAR less stock into the intangibles than I do the players and coaches, that the PASSIONATE management put on the floor.

That's what this team is missing. You put the right players in our starting lineup (Deron at PG had we drafted him/Adelman at HC), you have a different team out there and a MUCH better shot at progressing. This team doesn't lack emotion, confidence, or chemistry as much as they lack a floor general, diversified talent, and management.

[AHF]

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Orlando when they drafted Penny.

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They were going to be winners with or without Penny. They had Shaq. They were better with Penny than with the 12 pick in the draft, obviously, but it didn't need to be Penny for them to make the playoffs Shaq's second year in the league.

[Wretch]

And perhaps I should have elaborated more, but I was just speaking about their playoff birth - since that seems to be the measuring stick around here and that we need that "confidence" to get us over the hump.

Moresoe than we need a player like Oneal to turn us around or like Penny to push us over the top...

Either way, both players reinforce the same point. Overnight success comes with the right talent. Gradual success comes with the right talent, the right combination of players, the right coaching, and the right management. Experience comes into play (but comes with the win and the loss) as does confidence. But I think just as "tankers" have a certain "fluff" that we add to the tanking strategy, anti-tankers put too much "fluff" into wrecking player confidence and team chemistry.

These players aren't fragile and they're not babies. We could lose the majority of our games going through to the end of the season, I guarantee they'll come back just as hungry, if not hungrier, at the opening tip.

[Guest Walter]

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If I had my choice between make the playoffs and get a top 3 pick, I'd choose the playoffs...As I did before the season began. As I did before the trade deadline.

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Unfortunately that is a short-sighted question. It's not about this year for this team. Never really was. After BK's horrible offseason it wasn't about this year. It's about the next 10 years if it's about a top 3 pick. I'll rephrase it to include would you intentionally lose if you could win an average of 50 games for 10 years if you did so and 35 if you didn't. I think both Oden and Durant are 15 game swing avg. players minimum for a team over 10 years. More importantly, with either you can conceive of a title. Not with our unit so far.

W

[Guest Walter]

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Either way, both players reinforce the same point. Overnight success comes with the right talent. Gradual success comes with the right talent, the right combination of players, the right coaching, and the right management. Experience comes into play (but comes with the win and the loss) as does confidence. But I think just as "tankers" have a certain "fluff" that we add to the tanking strategy, anti-tankers put too much "fluff" into wrecking player confidence and team chemistry.

These players aren't fragile and they're not babies. We could lose the majority of our games going through to the end of the season, I guarantee they'll come back just as hungry, if not hungrier, at the opening tip.

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Exactly.

Even if players respect forthright and honest acknowledgement of the problem and a plan however unattractive it may be, they're still competitors.

They may come back with a chip on their shoulder, an ax to grind, and something to prove. They'll prove it on the court. A perceived slight can make you that much hungrier and better. I think MW could use a little more hunger. Who knows.

W