I am confused!!

[Wurider05]

Why does the "he's only 22" argument seems to work for Smoove but alot of fols are ready to write Marvin off and he is only 21. I guess Smoove is the only one that has the capacity to get better. I really feel that a player should be evaluated at the end of their rookie contract. Only a fool would max a player on potential after they have been in the league for four years. With that being said I don't think that anyone on this team (other than Joe) deserves a max. Smoove shows up half the time so he should get half the max. I think that next season is make or break for Marvin but you would be a fool to ever think that Smoove will ever stop playing the way he is. The sad thing is that he really tries but it is like he can't help himself when he gets the ball in his hand. I think that we have a good enough team to be very competitive but you guys need to get off of that Smoove is untouchable but Marvin is thing. SMoove's stats are getting better but he isn't becoming a better player-think about that.

[Packfill]

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Why does the

"he's only 22"

argument seems to work for Smoove but alot of fols are ready to write Marvin off and he is only 21. I guess Smoove is the only one that has the capacity to get better. I really feel that a player should be evaluated at the end of their rookie contract. Only a fool would max a player on potential after they have been in the league for four years. With that being said I don't think that anyone on this team (other than Joe) deserves a max. Smoove shows up half the time so he should get half the max. I think that next season is make or break for Marvin but you would be a fool to ever think that Smoove will ever stop playing the way he is. The sad thing is that he really tries but it is like he can't help himself when he gets the ball in his hand.

I think that we have a good enough team to be very competitive but you guys need to get off of that Smoove is untouchable but Marvin is thing.

SMoove's stats are getting better but he isn't becoming a better player-think about that.

Smith has a much greater impact (both good and bad) on games then Marvin does. They are the same age (same high school class and six months age difference doesn't matter), which is why they are generally considered peers. Since Marvin has accomplished less, he gets more criticism - that and the fact that he was the second pick in the draft.

[frosgrim]

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Only a fool would max a player on potential after they have been in the league for four years. With that being said I don't think that anyone on this team (other than Joe) deserves a max. Smoove shows up half the time so he should get half the max.

The problem with the contract is that the Hawks are not the only players in the market. Since there will be competition for Smith's services, we have to pay the scarcity price. What that price will be is still to be determined. The Hawks are in the same position that NJ was in with Kenyon Martin. Kenyon looked like a guy that could be a defensive force and had an improving offensive game, but was he worth the millions that Denver threw at him? Without the injuries that Martin had, he may have paid for that contract with wins; however, I think Denver would not make the same move again given what they now know about Martin.

Interestingly, NJ really did nothing since Martin left either. In fact, I would say the only winner in the Martin deal was Kenyon and his agent.

What does this have to do with the Hawks? Well I think the Martin experience can provide some insights for the Hawks management. If Smith gets an unbelievable offer, e.g. near the max, then an S-T deal is probably called for; however, the return on that deal needs to be signifcant- near equal to what we paid to get JJ. If Smith gets are more reasonable offer, the Hawks need to match and keep Smith with the team. The problem comes, as usual, is where is that line between reasonable and unreasonable? My guess is that Smith will get around 80-85% of a max contract offer on the open market. For me, that is the matching level. If the offer gets up to 90% then look as S-T.

These sorts of decissions can paralyze a franchise. The Hawks in the late 80s suffered from Detroit killing us with Konkack's contract. Denver is handicapped by a too expensive Martin. Minnesota is hamstrung by badly overpaying for marginal players. Guys like Kapono last year were way overpaid for their potential on-court contributions. The Hawks are now standing on that cliff. They know they have to:

1) Re-sign Smith and possibly Childress

2) Develop bench depth

These issue are not mutually exclusive and impact each other. I for one, feel we resign Smith and see what we can get for an S-T of Childress. If nothing good comes from an S-T of Childress then just resign him. He provides depth which this team sorely needs more of.

[Diesel]

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Why does the

"he's only 22"

argument seems to work for Smoove but alot of fols are ready to write Marvin off and he is only 21. I guess Smoove is the only one that has the capacity to get better. I really feel that a player should be evaluated at the end of their rookie contract. Only a fool would max a player on potential after they have been in the league for four years. With that being said I don't think that anyone on this team (other than Joe) deserves a max. Smoove shows up half the time so he should get half the max. I think that next season is make or break for Marvin but you would be a fool to ever think that Smoove will ever stop playing the way he is. The sad thing is that he really tries but it is like he can't help himself when he gets the ball in his hand.

I think that we have a good enough team to be very competitive but you guys need to get off of that Smoove is untouchable but Marvin is thing.

SMoove's stats are getting better but he isn't becoming a better player-think about that.

To answer your original question, I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things. Marvin is a slow train that may never reach it's destination. Smoove on the other hand is constantly improving. Smoove doesn't have Marvin's head (because Smoove is a hothead) but that's good. IF he did, he probably wouldn't care.

For 15 days we were a playoff team and that whole time, Marvin's body language and play was the same as when we were playing in exhibition season. He doesn't have passion. Without Passion, it's going to be very hard to become better.

Whereas Smoove is the example of passion.

[Admin]

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I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things

So now Marvin doesn't try and he doesn't give a damn? You are unbelievable sometimes D.

[Diesel]

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I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things

So now Marvin doesn't try and he doesn't give a damn? You are unbelievable sometimes D.

Dude. The proof is in the play. Honestly, do you see any passion in Marvin's play when the game is on the line? I'm not talking about garbage time or midgame when we're just going back and fourth or the game doesn't count. I'm talking about when we need points.. Where's Marvin? I put my GPS on him.. I'll tell you where he is.. He's standing on the high post hoping that somebody would throw him a pass. But his arms are down and he's watching the play develop just like I am. That might not be doesn't give a damn, but it's in the neighborhood.

[macdaddy]

I don't think you'll get many people in the league to go along with the idea that Smoove isn't becoming a better player. When he got to the league all he did well was dunk and block. He still has turnovers but his ball handling has improved dramatically. He has good moves around the basket. He's become a good passer.

Marvin's game hasn't changed much in 3 years. He has a good looking jumper and plays good defense but the rest of his game looks the same. To me he really needs more of a power game. He's not going to be a 3 point, quick guy. but physically he should be able to back people down, get to the line.

[Admin]

Did you ever stop to think that maybe that is where he is SUPPOSED to be in the offense? If he stands there with his arms up or jumping up and down he is going to draw attention from the defense which is not something that we want since we want JJ/Bibby to be able to reverse the ball to Marvin for an open mid-range jumper.

Marvin has a lot that he needs to work on but this nonsense about him not giving a damn or not caring or whatever has to stop. He obviously cares whether we win or lose otherwise he wouldn't have gone back in the game during game 6 to try and help us win when he was obviously hurting.

[Diesel]

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I don't think you'll get many people in the league to go along with the idea that Smoove isn't becoming a better player. When he got to the league all he did well was dunk and block. He still has turnovers but his ball handling has improved dramatically. He has good moves around the basket. He's become a good passer.

Marvin's game hasn't changed much in 3 years. He has a good looking jumper and plays good defense but the rest of his game looks the same. To me he really needs more of a power game. He's not going to be a 3 point, quick guy.

but physically he should be able to back people down, get to the line.

Marvin doesn't have the ball handling, the awareness, or the strength to play that game. Marvin turns his back to the basket and the defender either steals the ball or stand their ground and Marvin tumbles. Marvin is that player with great physical assets but two left feet and no clue how to use them. Marvin didn't play off the bench at UNC because of some phantom Freshman rule...

Excuse me but didn't Hansbrough start as a freshman. How about Ty Lawson?

Yeah. Freshman rule.

[Diesel]

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Did you ever stop to think that maybe that is where he is SUPPOSED to be in the offense? If he stands there with his arms up or jumping up and down he is going to draw attention from the defense which is not something that we want since we want JJ/Bibby to be able to reverse the ball to Marvin for an open mid-range jumper.

Marvin has a lot that he needs to work on but this nonsense about him not giving a damn or not caring or whatever has to stop. He obviously cares whether we win or lose otherwise he wouldn't have gone back in the game during game 6 to try and help us win when he was obviously hurting.

You have to understand that there's a difference in helping your team win by doing things on the court vs. helping your team win by living up to your potential. Sheez, every Hawk on the bench wanted to help our team win game 7. All of them would have come back for game 7 injured. Who doesn't want to be Willis Reed. The question is: while you are on the court are you making a positive difference?? The question is: Are you improving your game in the offseason?? The question is: Do you leave it all on the floor??

You say Marvin has a lot that he needs to work on... Well let me ask you this. Since he has entered the league, what thing has he worked on and improved to the point that you say " Wow, he's so much better in this area.".

The best predictor of future actions are past actions. Marvin has not shown any growth since being here. I will go so far as to say that he was a better player in college.

[AnnArborHawk]

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Whereas Smoove is the example of passion.

Not necessarily a good thing. Sure, when he was going off, he was pumped and got the rest of the team behind him. But after he missed a couple layups in game one, he looked dejected the rest of the game.

People talk about his BBIQ being bad...well his emotional IQ is worse. In one of the recent articles I read he said something about knowing he was going to have a bad game after he missed his first couple shots....well no frikkin wonder you have a bad game b/c 3 minutes into it you've already decided you're going to have one!!!! Somebody get this guy a sports psychologist because his own damn head takes himself out of more games than opposing defenses do!

[Seano]

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Why does the

"he's only 22"

argument seems to work for Smoove but alot of fols are ready to write Marvin off and he is only 21. I guess Smoove is the only one that has the capacity to get better.

That's a great question, Wurider. It may seem like an apparent double standard, but for me it lies in the way they play, their draft status (Marvin a #2, Smoove a late 1st round pick), and just their overall approach- or at least what that appears to be from the outside looking in.

Both have positive aspects, both negative, all of those well-documented- but you just cannot get around the fact of how freaking CLUMSY Marvin Williams is. He looks like a total clod out there, his hands are terrible, he's apparently unable to run and dribble at the same time without losing the ball, bouncing it off a foot or knee etc etc....I mean WTF???? For the second overall pick in the draft, this is what we get? As Bill Parcells likes to say- you are what you are, and I don't know how a clumsy person can get beyond that and if not make themselves graceful at least make themselves into a less clumsy person. So that's a huge negative for me regarding Marvin.

And another big negative for me is his Invisible Man routine out there, and how for the number of minutes he's given on the court, how few plays he makes. Half the time I don't even realize he's in the game, because it's like he's not even there- and that is because he's not making any plays. He seems passive in the extreme, while Smoove plays with great passion (and sometimes that's for the better, sometimes not- but you ALWAYS know when Smoove is out there on the court).

I always hope for the best, but Marvin is just a great disappointment to me at this point. And I realize he's still very young, but he's not so young in NBA years anymore. He's well experienced as far as that goes, and I just cannot see him rising past those negatives to become a great player. I don't even see how that's possible, as fricken clumsy as he is. That's just my opinion of him. I'm not speaking for anyone else. I would take Smoove (even with all of his negatives) every day of the week over Marvin Williams, and it's really not even close.

[frosgrim]

G Min  FT-M FT-A Pct Reb-Def Reb-Tot Ast PPG

79 24:41  2.4 3.2 74.7 3.3 4.9 0.8 8.5

64 34:00  3.4 4.1 81.5 4 5.3 1.9 13.1

80 34:36  4.2 5.1 82.2 4.2 5.7 1.7 14.8

223 30:53  3.3 4.2 79.9 3.8 5.3 1.4 12.1

That looks like improvement to me. Slow, but steady.

To question Marvin's desire is jaded. The guy has gutted out games while hurt. Playing hurt is one of the best indicators of drive. Marvin wants to win he just has to get more agressive.

[TroyMcClure]

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G Min  FT-M FT-A Pct Reb-Def Reb-Tot Ast PPG

79 24:41  2.4 3.2 74.7 3.3 4.9 0.8 8.5

64 34:00  3.4 4.1 81.5 4 5.3 1.9 13.1

80 34:36  4.2 5.1 82.2 4.2 5.7 1.7 14.8

223 30:53  3.3 4.2 79.9 3.8 5.3 1.4 12.1

That looks like improvement to me. Slow, but steady.

To question Marvin's desire is jaded. The guy has gutted out games while hurt. Playing hurt is one of the best indicators of drive. Marvin wants to win he just has to get more agressive.

Wanting to win and actually knowing how to make it happen are two different things. By the way, you "don't trade anyone" people sound like little schoolgirls hoping Marvin will pick you for the dance. We've seen enough. He's not ever going to give this team the dynamic it needs. It's about the team. We won 37 games. We suck. Who cares if we played decent ball for 3 games and got our asses absolutely handed to us in the other 4. We are a 37 win team with no perimeter shooting to space the floor. Marvin will never have that. He will never be like Monster Mash either. I had hoped, but I've seen enough. We just need another piece that fits differently. Marvin might get us that piece.

[D.R.P.]

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I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things

So now Marvin doesn't try and he doesn't give a damn? You are unbelievable sometimes D.

Dude. The proof is in the play. Honestly, do you see any passion in Marvin's play when the game is on the line? I'm not talking about garbage time or midgame when we're just going back and fourth or the game doesn't count. I'm talking about when we need points.. Where's Marvin? I put my GPS on him.. I'll tell you where he is.. He's standing on the high post hoping that somebody would throw him a pass. But his arms are down and he's watching the play develop just like I am. That might not be doesn't give a damn, but it's in the neighborhood.

So Marvin played with no passion in Games 6 & 7 when the season was on the line? Diesel your comments are ridicoulous. The difference is just that Josh makes ooh and ahhs plays. They both have issues that they need to solve Marvin's is more of an physical issue and Josh Smith's is more of a mental issue.

[Dsinner]

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I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things

So now Marvin doesn't try and he doesn't give a damn? You are unbelievable sometimes D.

Dude. The proof is in the play. Honestly, do you see any passion in Marvin's play when the game is on the line? I'm not talking about garbage time or midgame when we're just going back and fourth or the game doesn't count. I'm talking about when we need points.. Where's Marvin? I put my GPS on him.. I'll tell you where he is.. He's standing on the high post hoping that somebody would throw him a pass. But his arms are down and he's watching the play develop just like I am. That might not be doesn't give a damn, but it's in the neighborhood.

So Marvin played with no passion in Games 6 & 7 when the season was on the line? Diesel your comments are ridicoulous. The difference is just that Josh makes ooh and ahhs plays. They both have issues that they need to solve Marvin's is more of an physical issue and Josh Smith's is more of a mental issue.

Problem is only one of those issues is actually solvable. You can't turn a duck into a swan, but you can change a schizophrenic into at least a walmart greeter, with good meds.

[D.R.P.]

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I think it's because Smoove tries. 22 and trying vs. 21 and not giving a damn are two different things

So now Marvin doesn't try and he doesn't give a damn? You are unbelievable sometimes D.

Dude. The proof is in the play. Honestly, do you see any passion in Marvin's play when the game is on the line? I'm not talking about garbage time or midgame when we're just going back and fourth or the game doesn't count. I'm talking about when we need points.. Where's Marvin? I put my GPS on him.. I'll tell you where he is.. He's standing on the high post hoping that somebody would throw him a pass. But his arms are down and he's watching the play develop just like I am. That might not be doesn't give a damn, but it's in the neighborhood.

So Marvin played with no passion in Games 6 & 7 when the season was on the line? Diesel your comments are ridicoulous. The difference is just that Josh makes ooh and ahhs plays. They both have issues that they need to solve Marvin's is more of an physical issue and Josh Smith's is more of a mental issue.

Problem is only one of those issues is actually solvable. You can't turn a duck into a swan, but you can change a schizophrenic into at least a walmart greeter, with good meds.

I disagree; it's much easier to change someone's physical state than their mental state. With the proper weight training, workouts, and coordination drills Marvin's physical issues can be fixed. Marvin has not physically grown into himself. Different people grow into themselves physically at different ages. Everyone doesn’t have the mold of a Lebron or Dwight Howard, in that their fully grown at 18. It's called putting on that grown man weight and Marvin hasn't reached that point.

Smooth's mental issues will take more work. First he needs a different coach to listen too that he respects. Second he has to adhere to what that coach is saying.

Basically if you have two players entering the league one is a hothead and one is physically limited (weak and uncoordinated), who has the better chance of changing that issue? Nine times out of ten the physically limited kid has a greater chance solving his issue.

Your comment about someone being a schizophrenic, are just plain idiotic. I have an uncle who is a schizophrenic and he’s been dealing with that for 20 plus years. Medication does not cure schizophrenia. So don’t talk about something you have no idea about.

[Diesel]

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Whereas Smoove is the example of passion.

Not necessarily a good thing. Sure, when he was going off, he was pumped and got the rest of the team behind him. But after he missed a couple layups in game one, he looked dejected the rest of the game.

People talk about his BBIQ being bad...well his emotional IQ is worse. In one of the recent articles I read he said something about knowing he was going to have a bad game after he missed his first couple shots....well no frikkin wonder you have a bad game b/c 3 minutes into it you've already decided you're going to have one!!!! Somebody get this guy a sports psychologist because his own damn head takes himself out of more games than opposing defenses do!

Granted, maturity in handling his emotions is needed and will come. However, to play without passion is something that's very hard to overcome. In this game, you have to be able to match somebody's energy. Work ethic is not enough. When KG showed up in Atlanta, Horf, Smoove were able to match his energy. Sometimes when you're undermanned like we were, the difference is how much passion you play with. Sometimes, it's the team that plays the most inspired ball who wins.

[Diesel]

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I disagree; it's much easier to change someone's physical state than their mental state. With the proper weight training, workouts, and coordination drills Marvin's physical issues can be fixed. Marvin has not physically grown into himself. Different people grow into themselves physically at different ages. Everyone doesn’t have the mold of a Lebron or Dwight Howard, in that their fully grown at 18. It's called putting on that grown man weight and Marvin hasn't reached that point.

Smooth's mental issues will take more work. First he needs a different coach to listen too that he respects. Second he has to adhere to what that coach is saying.

Basically if you have two players entering the league one is a hothead and one is physically limited (weak and uncoordinated), who has the better chance of changing that issue? Nine times out of ten the physically limited kid has a greater chance solving his issue.

Your comment about someone being a schizophrenic, are just plain idiotic. I have an uncle who is a schizophrenic and he’s been dealing with that for 20 plus years.

Medication does not cure schizophrenia.

So don’t talk about something you have no idea about.

The problem here is this. Marvin's problem is more than Physical. We're talking about a player's drive. It's been three years. Marvin's the same guy that stepped on the court 2 seasons ago. He's not better than he was in college. He's not improving, he's becoming content with where he is. Give me the hothead who is trying to get better... than the guy who has the physical potential but lack the heart and desire to be better.

For all the things you said about Smoove, you could have applied to Kobe when he was a young player.

[Admin]

You may not be the only one but you are in the overwhelming minority of people who believe that Marvin doesn't play with passion.