so the truth comes out

[LOL_Hawks]

Woodson's career winning % is always going to be a little skewed because he coached those total roster strip downs his 1st couple of years in Atlanta.

I'll judge him by what he does going forward.

Exactly. I think I can count on one hand the number of coaches that could do better with the roster that Woody had. If anybody could win with the teams we had when Woody first got here, then that man has my respect for the rest of the time that I am living hear on Earth.

I mean, we could fire the man, and then we'd fall into the trap that teams often fall into...they give their coaches 2 and a 1/2 years to work miracles with a terrible and/or young squad and then fire them. OKC, Sacramento, and Milwaukee are just a sample of teams that have fallen into this trap and have been in a rut spinning their wheels as a result.

The way I see it, as long as Woodson can keep on winning consistently from this point on, I see no reason for him to be fired, unless he and Smoove have a deathmatch one of these days.

[Swish]

I'll tell you one thing, if I'm Woody and I'm calling plays and JJ's doubled (using the old roster), I'm sure as heck not letting Smoove or Captain Brick Childress shoot the last shot. Lue was actually clutch.

[TroyMcClure]

Woody was a pretty good player.

The 50-year-old Woodson has over two decades of NBA experience as a player and coach, and served three seasons as an assistant under Brown in both Philadelphia (2001-03) and Detroit. He also worked as an assistant coach with the Cleveland Cavaliers (1999-01) and the Milwaukee Bucks (1996-99).

One of the chief architects behind the Pistons’ suffocating defensive effort during the 2003-04 season, Detroit held the opposition to 84.3 points per game that year, which equaled the league’s best total defensively (along with San Antonio). In addition, the Pistons’ point differential of +5.84 was the second-best in the NBA and they limited opponents to 41.4 field goal shooting, the league’s third-best performance. During their 23 postseason games, Detroit intensified their efforts defensively, holding teams to 80.7 ppg and 39.2 FG shooting, and in the five-game Finals series against Los Angeles, the Pistons kept the Lakers more than 16 points under their regular season average and hounded them into shooting 41 percent from the floor.

The 11-year veteran and 6-5 guard played for seven teams in the NBA after he was selected in the first round of the 1980 Draft by the New York Knicks with the 12th overall pick. In 786 career games, Woodson averaged 14.0 points (10.981 career points), 2.3 rebounds and 2.3 assists in 25.5 minutes, enjoying his best season in 1982-83 when he played for the then-Kansas City Kings and posted 18.2 points per game.

In addition to the Knicks and Kings (both in Kansas City and Sacramento), Woodson also played with New Jersey, the Los Angeles Clippers, Houston and Cleveland, before retiring from the game in 1991. His teams advanced to the playoffs five times, where he averaged 12.2 ppg, 2.6 apg and 2.3 rpg.

No, he wasn't a good player. He averaged 14 a game on many of the worst teams in history. I ask you, has any other person lead in scoring and coached for two of the five worst teams ever? Woody has.

I have shown his record time and again. I know full well everything you've typed... and then some. Like the fact that he was the "leader" of two teams that were so great they moved cities. Check his career playing winning %. It's about the same as his coaching. There is a direct corollary there. You don't become a winning coach by being around losing your whole career.

You are joking about being "the architect" aren't you? That's just patently stupid. I think Chauncey and Rasheed were the "architects". Or maybe Larry Brown. Not woody. This isn't football. Woody isn't a hot shot coordinator. He rode some coattails and now has cashed many checks.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I'll tell you one thing, if I'm Woody and I'm calling plays and JJ's doubled (using the old roster), I'm sure as heck not letting Smoove or Captain Brick Childress shoot the last shot. Lue was actually clutch.

LOL . . I agree. And that's what's so ironic about the Woody/Smith "feud". It's like Smith ( and the Smith supporters/Woody haters ) actually believe that Smith should be allowed to do whatever he wants out on the court, regardless if it kills the team or not.

Hmmm @ the Philly game. Is that the game in which a play was called for Smith, and instead of taking the smaller man to the hole, he settled for a jumper that he missed badly, and Woody got mad at him? Then the next trip down, Smith calls for the ball, but never got it, prompting the outburst? I think it may have been the Philly game 2 years ago. I'm not sure.

Like Smith is this great offensive scorer or something, that he has the authority to dictate who should be taking key shots or not . . lol.

Even today, he came down on one of his "grab the rebound and run my own fastbreak", tried to go 2 on 5, and ends up losing the ball. Nique said . . "what was that?". LOL.

Smith is a wild player that has to be reigned in at all times. If coach eases up on him, he'd kill us every game. Woody has to stay in his ear, to constantly let him know what he should be doing . . not what he WANTS to be doing.

[TroyMcClure]

Oh, I almost forgot. You talked playoffs. His team went to the playoffs 5 times. That is correct. but you failed to mention that he only played 16 minutes for the Knicks, the only team that had a decent record that he played for. They traded him the following year, by the way. 2 of the other 4 years his teams had losing records like last year's Hawks. Another had a .500% record. And lastly, the last playoff team he was on, he barely played there as well. Go figure, they had a winning record. Strange right? Why is it shocking that he thinks he did something last year? He thinks that is success.

[DJlaysitup]

There is plenty of blame to go around. Smith needs to wake the F up and realize that he isn't Rashard or Jason Kidd. I am so sick of watching him jack up long jumpers or trying to lead the break.

But Woody should have put an end to that nonsense long ago. He is just a poor coach. The Hawks offense is nothing but iso after iso. It is a given that boxing out is not stressed at all. Woodys switch everything defense could definitely use some improvement since it so frequently leads to mismatches.

I just think Woody needs to hit the road. It is obvious he isn't going to change.

Yeah ex...as usual the truth is somewhere in the middle...and you pretty much nailed it. Much of Woody's horrible record is due to BK's "drive for the bottom", yet, all it takes for a person to judge Woody's overall coaching is to watch his "offensive system". He also needs to realize that nobody else in the league is benching key guys in games we can (could of) won. It's not like JS is an insane lunatic....just a bit immature. Coaches are supposed to be the smart guys who can push the right buttons.

There's a reason that Bobby Knight doesn't coach in the pros.

Edited March 21, 2009 by DJlaysitup

[Wretch]

Fine, let's not give him credit for the improvement or the teams record. I'll give that to all of you if you want if you'll give me one thing.

You're no longer allowed to blame him for the poor record earlier in his career as our head coach because we had an awful roster.

You can only have it one way here either give Woody the credit he deserves or stop bashing Woody for his poor record overall as our coach. Fair enough?

Nowhere did I say he did not deserve any credit and I'm not basing my opinion solely upon his record - only in response to the above post that points out our winning record this season as a barometer of Woodson's coaching skills. He has helped this team to improve in some ways:

• These teams don't quit.
  
• They play up to the VERY BEST in this league (at home).
  
• They play solid defense - which is the most important aspect of the game for me BTW.
  
• He has brought the BEST out of Joe Johnson.
  
• He's old-school and tough minded.
  

These are all traits that I would LOVE to have in any coach and to his credit, this team has really stepped up this year. Though, despite all of that there are things that do not sit well with me. He disconnects with guys, his preparation for big games (especially on the road) is lacking and it shows, and he has no idea what to do with this team on offense (besides "give it to Joe" and shoot a jumper if that fails).

Most of all, and I'm seriously going to say this, I'm tired of just looking at him. Not only is it time to bring in a more talented mind, but it is time for change simply for the sake of change. We need a new face on the sidelines. As I've said though, I don't think that just anyone will do. I don't think we'll have much luck promoting an assistant or simply bringing in another green coach. The point is to upgrade. Right now, we've got an average NBA coach and with him I expect average results.

[coachx]

http://www.ajc.com/services/content/sports...=7&cxcat=21

What this means: Smith and Woodson argue because they both love basketball. Josh thinks it should be played from the inside out. Woodson being an old guard thinks it should be played outside in. They don't get along because woody thinks guards win basketball games and Josh doesn't. That's what the arguments stem from. Woodson reliance as a former guard on guards as primary scorers.

Which is why he sticks with Bibby and why Acie's inability to score from outside keeps him from playing more. Josh and Woodson's comments alude to Woodson treating the guards differently. I mean who in their right freaking mind draws the last play of a game up for Tyron Lue?

Huh ? I see the complete opposite.

Woody thinks Smith should play from the outside in ? Did you mean to say it the other way around ? Everyone knows Woody gets on to Smoove all the time for taking too many perimeter shots, and rightfully so. Hence, Smoove's 3 point attempts have decreased in every NBA season.

Did you not watch many Hawks when Lue was our best PG ? JJ is doubled and T. Lue was known for making clutch shots in the 4th quarter. Wteve Wmith even called him "The Closer" b/c he was the guy who knocked down in the 4th quarter...........Marvin was 10-21 and Smith was 20-21 at that time. Lue was the best perimeter shooter to gert open looks off JJ's double team at that time.

[khaos7]

Josh is clearly wrong for cursing out Woody. I'm not a Woody supporter by any stretch of the imagination. However, as the head coach, he deserves respect from his players that should accompany the position. They can have disagreements. Disagreements can be a good thing if you learn from them (ask anyone who has been married for a while in a successful marriage).

Having said all that...

The improvement the Hawks have experienced, IMHO, is due to the players maturing in the league and playing games, rather than Woodson's X's and O's. If you have talent and play in the league long enough, the game will slow down for you. It's call natural progression. And with a team of young guys, they progressed together. We have a team built to run. Yet, he prefers a slowed down game. His offensive sets lack movement and are predictable at best. I think your record would/should improve every year if you have a bunch of high 1st round draft picks on your roster. Yes, it's a player's league. Woody ain't the one missing free throws. He's not the one jacking up bad shots. He's not the one leaving 3-point shooters unguarded. He's not the one missing defensive assignments.

However,

A good coach can be the difference between 5 to 10 wins in a season based of how he manages rotations, puts players in the proper places to excel and developing players. From a defensive standpoint, I think Woodson has developed some of his young talent. However, their are two sides of the ball and on the other side of the ball, I believe Woodson has done his players an injustice. How did Josh improve his post moves? He went to Hakeem. Marvin's 3's? Before Price came aboard, he went to one of the coachs at UNC. Horford? His moves are still mechanical and a lot of his points come on put backs and cleaning up the boards (not plays drawn up for him). Don't get me started on Acie. I dogged Diaw when he left here. When he had success with the Suns, I said he was a product of the system. Now, he's with Larry Brown and he's still productive. I believe this collection of talent would thrive under a better coach. I can't think of one time where I said Woody drew up a play and it was a game changing one. Those moments don't come along that much. However, when they do, it looks like Woody never comes through.

I say this...D'Antoni's Knicks is a mismatched collection of talent. However, they've played somewhat better than expected and they have a style on offense. What is our identity? Pick N Roll? Stanford Offense? Run and Gun? That's a direct reflection on coaching.

[crimedog]

3. Woody has clashed with Josh Smith, Salim Stoudamire, and Anthony Johnson. Was there anyone else I have missed? Both Josh and Salim are KNOWN hot-heads, especially Salim who I believe was suspended in college because of his attitude. Regarding Anthony Johnson I can't remember what happened there but it could have been a legitimate beef. Even Josh's and Salim's may have been legitimate beefs and assuming that all 3 were that's only 3 players out of how many in Woody's 5 years?

The article mentions Diaw too. I remember Shelden and Zaza. Again, none of these guys are stars though.

Not sure exactly what happened in any of these cases. Remember Shelden complaining to Sekou. Remember Sekou writing an article over the summer saying Smith didn't really have issues with Woody but there were a couple of guys with the team who did.

Does any of this really matter? Sekou is right, neither Smith nor Woody are particularly thick skinned. They both have hot tempers and neither is particulalry subtle. The unfortunate thing is that a lot of coaches are a little better about knowing when and how to push their players' buttons.

So my question is this: Why the hell was this article written now? Did something else come up or was he just looking for something to write, because correct me if I'm wrong, but hasn't the Charlotte thing been written about already and discussed ad nauseum?

Edited March 23, 2009 by crimedog

[gsuteke]

We're not going to see another coach until this ownership mess is cleared up IMO so there's no sense in getting your blood pressure up over it.

[khaos7]

We're not going to see another coach until this ownership mess is cleared up IMO so there's no sense in getting your blood pressure up over it.

And that my friend is sad...

[buckeye242424]

We're not going to see another coach until this ownership mess is cleared up IMO so there's no sense in getting your blood pressure up over it.

I believe this is true. Also the fact the Hawks are having the best season in over a decade. Woody isn't going anywhere. In fact, I think he will get an extension. :computer8:

[DrReality]

Yeah ex...as usual the truth is somewhere in the middle...and you pretty much nailed it. Much of Woody's horrible record is due to BK's "drive for the bottom", yet, all it takes for a person to judge Woody's overall coaching is to watch his "offensive system". He also needs to realize that nobody else in the league is benching key guys in games we can (could of) won. It's not like JS is an insane lunatic....just a bit immature. Coaches are supposed to be the smart guys who can push the right buttons.

There's a reason that Bobby Knight doesn't coach in the pros.

Insightful. Both need to grow up. But there are a lot of other coaches out there better than Woody but there are not a bunch of other players better than Smoove.

One of the most honest articles I've read by Sekou.

[Atlantaholic]

There is plenty of blame to go around. Smith needs to wake the F up and realize that he isn't Rashard or Jason Kidd. I am so sick of watching him jack up long jumpers or trying to lead the break.

But Woody should have put an end to that nonsense long ago. He is just a poor coach. The Hawks offense is nothing but iso after iso. It is a given that boxing out is not stressed at all. Woodys switch everything defense could definitely use some improvement since it so frequently leads to mismatches.

I just think Woody needs to hit the road. It is obvious he isn't going to change.

Exactly. Josh is being an idiot, but it is pretty bad sign for the coach when several starters disrespect him openly and just do what they want... Woodson is an assistant coach posing as a head coach... I've never seen anyone so blatantly over his head than Woodson has been the last few years.

[buckeye242424]

Exactly. Josh is being an idiot, but it is pretty bad sign for the coach when several starters disrespect him openly and just do what they want... Woodson is an assistant coach posing as a head coach... I've never seen anyone so blatantly over his head than Woodson has been the last few years.

The fans of the Hawks and Hawksquawk do want Woodson gone. We're the ones that watch every game and critique all his mistakes. Most of us agree that the Hawks would flourish under another coach and/or a different philosophy. The sobering truth, it appears, is that nothing is going to change. With the ownership situation, the Hawks' steady improvement (by record), and a good shot at home court in year 2 of the playoffs, Woodson is staying put.

[AHF]

Josh is clearly wrong for cursing out Woody. I'm not a Woody supporter by any stretch of the imagination. However, as the head coach, he deserves respect from his players that should accompany the position. They can have disagreements. Disagreements can be a good thing if you learn from them (ask anyone who has been married for a while in a successful marriage).

Having said all that...

The improvement the Hawks have experienced, IMHO, is due to the players maturing in the league and playing games, rather than Woodson's X's and O's. If you have talent and play in the league long enough, the game will slow down for you. It's call natural progression. And with a team of young guys, they progressed together. We have a team built to run. Yet, he prefers a slowed down game. His offensive sets lack movement and are predictable at best. I think your record would/should improve every year if you have a bunch of high 1st round draft picks on your roster. Yes, it's a player's league. Woody ain't the one missing free throws. He's not the one jacking up bad shots. He's not the one leaving 3-point shooters unguarded. He's not the one missing defensive assignments.

However,

A good coach can be the difference between 5 to 10 wins in a season based of how he manages rotations, puts players in the proper places to excel and developing players. From a defensive standpoint, I think Woodson has developed some of his young talent. However, their are two sides of the ball and on the other side of the ball, I believe Woodson has done his players an injustice. How did Josh improve his post moves? He went to Hakeem. Marvin's 3's? Before Price came aboard, he went to one of the coachs at UNC. Horford? His moves are still mechanical and a lot of his points come on put backs and cleaning up the boards (not plays drawn up for him). Don't get me started on Acie. I dogged Diaw when he left here. When he had success with the Suns, I said he was a product of the system. Now, he's with Larry Brown and he's still productive. I believe this collection of talent would thrive under a better coach. I can't think of one time where I said Woody drew up a play and it was a game changing one. Those moments don't come along that much. However, when they do, it looks like Woody never comes through.

I say this...D'Antoni's Knicks is a mismatched collection of talent. However, they've played somewhat better than expected and they have a style on offense. What is our identity? Pick N Roll? Stanford Offense? Run and Gun? That's a direct reflection on coaching.

This post nailed much of the issue with Woodson for me. I'll just co-sign rather than rinse and repeat.

[khaos7]

This post nailed much of the issue with Woodson for me. I'll just co-sign rather than rinse and repeat.

That's one of the reasons I wanted Avery Johnson here. The Spurs teams he played on could run and gun, play pick and roll, or whatever the situation dictated. They also played solid D. I felt he tried to bring that to Dallas, but the collection of talent he had seemed to want to play Donnie Ball (high offense/no defense) rather than make key stops. The Hawks, I believe are more equipped to play that style. I believe Horford brings more to the table inside than Dampier. Bibby is servicable enough where he can run a time. Joe is tougher than Dirk (IMHO) and more willing to play D. I think Acie would thrive being under him and learned how to be a point guard in this league from a guy who successfully led his team. This may be the only question I would have because of the way he handled Kidd/Harris. However, Harris was never on the end of the bench the way Acie is. Josh is the wildcard. Because he's never played for anybody other than Woodson, we don't know if he'd listen to Avery. But assuming he did, he could have played a role similar to the one Josh Howard plays (second scorer/defensive specialist), provided Avery could get through to him.

However, with the ownership debacle, we'll never know. I just believe Avery would have brought a style of play on offense to the Hawks plus stress the defensive fundamentals Woody preaches.