The decision on Woody.

[Wurider05]

Does the fact that Woody has no job security entering next mean that he will continue to run a tighter player rotation? I mean it is like his back to to the wall and he isn't going to try anything new or that it out of his nature. I can just imagine Josh continuing to shoot threes and long range jumpers because he knows that Woody is a lame duck coach. Do you guys see it being a problem with him possibly losing the team next year. If they are not sure he is not the guy then why not let him go now? What difference will a year make? It doesn't make any sense. Woody had been her for 5 years now. We all know what to expect and what he is capable of. I have never seen any new wrinkles in anything that he does. I don't think that he the worst coach in the world but come on. I think that not making a decision on him this season may hurt the team in the long run. We are seemingly ready to make the next step but we are going to go into the season with a lame duck coach which can present a slew of problems within itself.

[TheTruth]

Awesome post. That is one thing that doesnt readily come to mind when we think of Woodson going into the last year of his contract without an extension.

Woodson will most likely run an even tighter ship now, and we can forget about him being really willing to trust a drafted, yet promising PG like Lawson.

I would certainly not expect many changes in his "coaching" style or the way he runs things. After all, everyone wants job security...and that will be a way of him trying to earn it.

[Cwell]

he could sign a 10 year extension and he'd still run a 7 and a half man rotation

[Swatguy]

13, 26, 30, 37, 47. That suggest the team steadily improves.

ONE outstanding player, 4 good and 2 NBA caliber players. That sugest the coaching has done wonders with an under average roster.

Sund is the bigger mystery at present.

Woody leans on players that play.

Edited May 26, 2009 by Swatguy

[Dexmethylphenidate]

13, 26, 30, 37, 47. That suggest the team steadily improves.

ONE outstanding player, 4 good and 2 NBA caliber players. That sugest the coaching has done wonders with an under average roster.

Sund is the bigger mystery at present.

Woody leans on players that play.

Oh please. Someone actually see this team play every game the last 5 years (including me) know what kind of a coach he is... a very bad one. The only reason he's here is because ASG is too cheap to hire a respectable coach.

[frosgrim]

The minutes problem is going to be significant for next season. The other problem is that guys that don't like Woodson just aren't going to listen to him.

You all think Smith was out of control at times this season, wait until 09-10.

I have said this several times, if Woodson is the ASG's guy, then they need to extend him. If not, cut bait, and move on to the next HC. This one year thing is going to bite the ASG and the Hawks in the rear, hard.

[Brotha2ThaNite]

The minutes problem is going to be significant for next season. The other problem is that guys that don't like Woodson just aren't going to listen to him.

You all think Smith was out of control at times this season, wait until 09-10.

I have said this several times, if Woodson is the ASG's guy, then they need to extend him. If not, cut bait, and move on to the next HC. This one year thing is going to bite the ASG and the Hawks in the rear, hard.

You got that right.

We can forget about Woody trying to groom young guys. He will run the starters into the ground like he did last year. WHY??? Because his job is on the line. He can't and won't take chances on younger guys (i.e. Law, our bench and draft picks) not when he is trying to get that next BIG PAYCHECK :help wanted3:

[AHF]

Most of the "problems" I see in this thread are things we already see.

- Woodson running a tight rotation. Check.

- Woodson playing starters bigger minutes than they should play. Check.

- Players tuning Woodson out. Check.

If this openly happened in prior years where Woodson was not on an expiring contract why would we not expect it to continue, extension or not?

I put player development in a different category.

- Woodson being unwilling to commit to developing younger players when there is a veteran. Mixed history on this. He certainly played Marvin and the Joshes from Day 1 but hasn't given minutes to Acie Law, Salim Stoudamire, Shelden Williams, etc. and hasn't really been proven wrong in those decisions.

Anyway, I agree there are some potential negatives and some of the already existing problems could get worse this season because Woodson is on an expiring deal, but if the ASG is unwilling to hire a new coach as long as Woodson has a contract then I am all for letting him coach out this contract. The downside of being stuck with Woodson for another 3-4 years if he got an extension and the ASG was unwilling to make a move to upgrade the position with him still under contract is much bigger than the risk that Josh Smith will shoot too many threes next year, etc. IMO.

[laved11]

Most of the "problems" I see in this thread are things we already see.

- Woodson running a tight rotation. Check.

- Woodson playing starters bigger minutes than they should play. Check.

- Players tuning Woodson out. Check.

If this openly happened in prior years where Woodson was not on an expiring contract why would we not expect it to continue, extension or not?

I put player development in a different category.

- Woodson being unwilling to commit to developing younger players when there is a veteran. Mixed history on this. He certainly played Marvin and the Joshes from Day 1 but hasn't given minutes to Acie Law, Salim Stoudamire, Shelden Williams, etc. and hasn't really been proven wrong in those decisions.

Anyway, I agree there are some potential negatives and some of the already existing problems could get worse this season because Woodson is on an expiring deal, but if the ASG is unwilling to hire a new coach as long as Woodson has a contract then I am all for letting him coach out this contract. The downside of being stuck with Woodson for another 3-4 years if he got an extension and the ASG was unwilling to make a move to upgrade the position with him still under contract is much bigger than the risk that Josh Smith will shoot too many threes next year, etc. IMO.

Good points except for one misunderstanding. The year Marvin Williams and Salim were drafted, neither started one game. Knowing the team was going to trade Al Harrington, Woodson still started Harrington and Ty Lue, Tony Delk or Royal Ivey (for 5 minutes) at PG. I think that team won 27 games. He never changed the lineup, knowing those guys weren't going to be here.

[AHF]

Good points except for one misunderstanding. The year Marvin Williams and Salim were drafted, neither started one game. Knowing the team was going to trade Al Harrington, Woodson still started Harrington and Ty Lue, Tony Delk or Royal Ivey (for 5 minutes) at PG. I think that team won 27 games. He never changed the lineup, knowing those guys weren't going to be here.

Marvin played 25 minutes a game at age 19. I think that is giving him good minutes. Marvin started 7 games that season.

Salim started 1 games and averaged 20 minutes per game. That was his best opportunity. He played more minutes that season than every guard not named Joe Johnson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2006.html

Tony Delk played 7 minutes for the Hawks the entire season, without a start.

Lue put up better numbers than Salim (with 10 starts) and Woodson did his "defensive sub starting" routine with Ivey - who played 250+ fewer minutes than Salim.

[laved11]

Marvin played 25 minutes a game at age 19. I think that is giving him good minutes. Marvin started 7 games that season.

Salim started 1 games and averaged 20 minutes per game. That was his best opportunity. He played more minutes that season than every guard not named Joe Johnson.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/2006.html

Tony Delk played 7 minutes for the Hawks the entire season, without a start.

Lue put up better numbers than Salim (with 10 starts) and Woodson did his "defensive sub starting" routine with Ivey - who played 250+ fewer minutes than Salim.

Good numbers, but you are making my point for me. Why did Marvin not start from day one, knowing you were losing Harrington and weren't winning anything? Yeah he was 19, but Chris Paul was 20 playing a much tougher position and he started from day one. You passed on long-term answers at the PG, but Salim and Royal are splitting time with players that were third string PG's at the peak of their careers. Getting good minutes and trying to build something relevant are two completely different things. Lue putting up better numbers is a cop-out, because no other team he played with viewed him as a starter.

In my opinion, Woodson did his best to lower expectations to make these small steps seem a lot bigger than what they were.

[frosgrim]

Most of the "problems" I see in this thread are things we already see.

- Woodson running a tight rotation. Check.

- Woodson playing starters bigger minutes than they should play. Check.

- Players tuning Woodson out. Check.

If this openly happened in prior years where Woodson was not on an expiring contract why would we not expect it to continue, extension or not?

I put player development in a different category.

- Woodson being unwilling to commit to developing younger players when there is a veteran. Mixed history on this. He certainly played Marvin and the Joshes from Day 1 but hasn't given minutes to Acie Law, Salim Stoudamire, Shelden Williams, etc. and hasn't really been proven wrong in those decisions.

Anyway, I agree there are some potential negatives and some of the already existing problems could get worse this season because Woodson is on an expiring deal, but if the ASG is unwilling to hire a new coach as long as Woodson has a contract then I am all for letting him coach out this contract. The downside of being stuck with Woodson for another 3-4 years if he got an extension and the ASG was unwilling to make a move to upgrade the position with him still under contract is much bigger than the risk that Josh Smith will shoot too many threes next year, etc. IMO.

I agree with the notion that not having Woodson on a long-term deal is best for the team in the long-run as Sund can pretty much fire him before the All-Star break with minimal cost to the ASG.

My issue is really about next season. Essentially by having Woody on a 1 year probation, next year could nose dive in a hurry. I would rather see the team continue to win.

Again, if the Woodson really is the guy, then he should be extended. The wait and see stance of the ASG is playing with fire, and that gets us all burned.

[JackB1]

Didn't any of you guys see Sund on one of the local news shows Sun nite?

He clearly said "Mike's back", when asked about Woodson.

[frosgrim]

Didn't any of you guys see Sund on one of the local news shows Sun nite?

He clearly said "Mike's back", when asked about Woodson.

That's not what we are discussing. We are talking about the problems now that Woodson is back for the final year of his contract.

[macdaddy]

This year is much different. This is really the only time Woody has been on the last year of his deal. Previously BK tried to fire him mid season and the owners balked at it and canned BK instead (I know he 'resigned') This basically sent the message that the owners were keeping him. With BK gone and Sund in they weren't going to let Sund come in and fire Woody immediately.

So this is his real evaluation year from Sund. If we see inconsistency and a paper-thin rotation that can't survive an injury (like we've seen for years) then I think Woody knows that will reflect negatively on him. Of course, Sund has to find NBA caliber players for the roster. Next year is all about doing well in the playoffs. If we don't make the conference finals we need to at least go 6 or 7 games in the 2nd round for Woody to even think about staying.

[JackB1]

That's not what we are discussing. We are talking about the problems now that Woodson is back for the final year of his contract.

My bad. I thought it was the usual "Fire Woody" banter.

I think they shouldn't decide on another long term contract until next season is over. The guy doesn't deserve

any job security at this point.

[GameTime]

Al Horford for Marc Gasol is a horrible trade. I rather do Smoove for Bynum and that is a bad trade.

[AHF]

Good numbers, but you are making my point for me. Why did Marvin not start from day one, knowing you were losing Harrington and weren't winning anything? Yeah he was 19, but Chris Paul was 20 playing a much tougher position and he started from day one.

Two reasons: (1) I think you can argue that Harrington needed to be showcased for trade value, which ended up being a late lottery pick (Acie Law). (2) Marvin Williams is not Chris Paul. What is good for Chris Paul is not necessarily good for Marvin.

You passed on long-term answers at the PG, but Salim and Royal are splitting time with players that were third string PG's at the peak of their careers. Getting good minutes and trying to build something relevant are two completely different things. Lue putting up better numbers is a cop-out, because no other team he played with viewed him as a starter.

Lue was better than Salim then and is still better than Salim today. That isn't a copout. The guy just isn't nearly as good as we all hoped when we drafted him. 20 minutes per game is definitely enough to work your way into a larger role if you can make the plays.

In my opinion, Woodson did his best to lower expectations to make these small steps seem a lot bigger than what they were.

No arguments on that point. He continues to employ that strategy today. It is all he has for PR - the idea that the team has made significant strides every year he has been the coach and that is a fine PR strategy when you are handed a roster that is designed to get a high lottery pick as the Hawks were back in his first couple years.

[DrReality]

I alluded to this in another post, but Eistein said doing the same thing over and over again but expecting different results. If he doesn't change he's gone.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

13, 26, 30, 37, 47. That suggest the team steadily improves.

ONE outstanding player, 4 good and 2 NBA caliber players. That sugest the coaching has done wonders with an under average roster.

Sund is the bigger mystery at present.

Woody leans on players that play.

LOL. . you'd think that this team won 30 games last year, judging by the posts on this board. It KILLS people that a Woody-led team won 47 games last year. Either that, or they expected us to win 50+ games, and get to at least the Eastern Conference Finals.

(( searching for that thread ))