Hawks want cheap big men, Teague looking like Paul and Deron?

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@ GrayMule:

I've always viewed you like E.F. Hutton. When you typed, I definitely "listened" ( or read ) what you had to say. While most of us are on here constantly arguing about just about everything, you always chime in with a precise and "to the point" assessment of a situation. I appreciate that element that you bring to this board.

@ scout:

I definitely agree with you, from the "passionate fan's" perspective. I think we'd all love to have a Mark Cuban-like owner, who would be willing to spend anything to put a good or great product on the floor. Cuban doesn't mind one bit overpaying for players.

But Scout, your response is exactly why I posted the Hawks 2-year home record of 62 - 27.

Last year alone, we were a 33 - 12 ballclub at home. So winning 70 - 75% of our home games isn't enough? We have to beat all of the top level teams at home also, before people start consistently going to the home games?

If that's the case . . . we just can't blame ownership for not investing what they can into the team. We fans must take part of the blame.

While this team is highly inconsistent on the road, they've been damn good at home for 2 years now. I think it's time for our fan base to stop acting like we're entitled to have a "winner", and start acting like a fan base that is going to be behind their team, no matter what.

It's an argument I've made on here before, so I won't go all the way back into it.

But it's kind of hypocritical for Hawks fans as a whole, to expect management to do everything possible to put a winner on the floor . . when the fan base as a whole still didn't manage to support the team enough to get us out of the bottom 5 in the league, when it came to ticket sales.

75% home winning percentage last year, still yielded those revenue numbers?

That may be the reason why they're not willing to overpay for non-essential guys.

[HawksBalla]

At first, I was upset the Hawks werent willing to spend 3 million. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be reasonable.

This backup we sign is only going to get about 12-15 minutes a game AT MOST. Horford and Smoove will both play at least 32 minutes a game, and Zaza is good for 20-25, especially since we're paying him almost 5 mil to come off the bench (man that Miami road game made him some money). Thats a max of 89 out of the possible 96 minutes from power forward and center. 3 million for seven minutes?!?!??

[Peoriabird]

At first, I was upset the Hawks werent willing to spend 3 million. But the more I think about it, the more I think it might be reasonable.

This backup we sign is only going to get about 12-15 minutes a game AT MOST. Horford and Smoove will both play at least 32 minutes a game, and Zaza is good for 20-25, especially since we're paying him almost 5 mil to come off the bench (man that Miami road game made him some money). Thats a max of 89 out of the possible 96 minutes from power forward and center. 3 million for seven minutes?!?!??

I wonder why all of these championship contenders are just wasting their money on back ups?

[AHF]

Northcyde

Usually, when you post, I don't even bother to reply. Why? Because, I agree with you, so why bother

to give you a big AMEN!

Posters here talk as though 2 or 3 Million per year spent is nothing. Really? Where does this money

come from?

For an old man who, adding my income AND my wife's, we are probably nearing the 1 Million Dollar

income level - - - Only problem we have, this is not annual income, it's LIFETIME income!!

Yep. To some, 2 or 3 million extra per year may be nothing.

:sad:

Who the heck thinks 2-3 million is meaningless? I am talking, however, about a significant payroll this team has invested in. Not getting a productive vet as the 5th member of the frontcourt would be like deciding brakes are too expensive for the car you just sank $20K into. Sure, it is still significant - no question about it. You may not be able to afford a Porche like some of the others in the neighborhood, but you still need to spend your money on something that makes sense. Because spending the other money doesn't make sense unless you are willing to do this, too, IMO. Look at the injury numbers over the last 3 seasons and recognize that a Joe Smith/Chris Wilcox, etc. sort of player could make all the difference in the world if/when you get another series of injuries this season.

Looking at the total picture, going with a combo like Pops, Siler & Hunter to finish off the bench would be a pennywise/pound foolish disaster, IMO. For goodness sake, you should have kept Solo if you wanted to save a few $$s! The only reason to rescind the QO for him and let him go cheap to the Pacers is if you plan to upgrade.

[MaceCase]

I wonder why all of these championship contenders are just wasting their money on back ups?

You need to ask yourself and take the time to research what those teams are paying their 10th-12th man. I assure you they are not wasting money overpaying those positions.

Edit: Willingly.....

off my head I know Luke Walton is practically the second to last man off the bench and he's making full MLE for the Lakers. Apparently even they can't afford to eat a contract like that by the looks of how his and other bloated contracts (Vujacic) have affected their negotiations this season with key players such as Ariza and Odom.

Edited July 28, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[Peoriabird]

You need to ask yourself and take the time to research what those teams are paying their 10th-12th man. I assure you they are not wasting money overpaying those positions.

Edit: Willingly.....

off my head I know Luke Walton is practically the second to last man off the bench and he's making full MLE for the Lakers. Apparently even they can't afford to eat a contract like that by the looks of how his and other bloated contracts (Vujacic) have affected their negotiations this season with key players such as Ariza and Odom.

So tell me, who are the laker's 10-12 men. Is Vujacic or Adam Morrison both make over $4.5 million. What about Cleveland? Is it Wally Szczerbiak or is it Sacha Pavlovic both make over $4.5 million per season. What about Orlando? Is it Tony Battie or JJ Redick. Battie makes over $5.7 Million and Redick over $2.2 mil. How much did the Celtics pay for Mikki Moore and Brian Scalabrine? What about Steven Hunter and John Petro in Denver? How much is Brian Cook making in Houston? Now either Fabicio Oberto or Kurt Thomas was a 10th man on San Antonio's team and they both made over $3.6 mil. I can go on and on but I think that you get the message.

[bonethugz]

Any one who owns a sports franchise should realize you need to put money in to make money otherwise don't own a franchise . I don't think Hawks fans are sold on the Hawks being able to compete vs elite teams thus they don't support the team. Other teams find a way to sign players why can't the Hawks. It's never a bad thing having to much talent but when your the Hawks it seems we have a skeleton crew and if injuries occur we use that as an excuse that the team lost because of it. Why is Morris on the roster? Is it because he is a local boy or are the Hawks owners believing he'll bring in fans because of the local ties?

We all know we needed a big man even after ZaZa was signed yet were going cheap as usual/

even you go support the team by either buying hawks stuff and/or attending games. it's still not very responsible just saying that. maybe you have the right to, but you're not being real.

[MaceCase]

So tell me, who are the laker's 10-12 men. Is Vujacic or Adam Morrison both make over $4.5 million. What about Cleveland? Is it Wally Szczerbiak or is it Sacha Pavlovic both make over $4.5 million per season. What about Orlando? Is it Tony Battie or JJ Redick. Battie makes over $5.7 Million and Redick over $2.2 mil. How much did the Celtics pay for Mikki Moore and Brian Scalabrine? What about Steven Hunter and John Petro in Denver? How much is Brian Cook making in Houston? Now either Fabicio Oberto or Kurt Thomas was a 10th man on San Antonio's team and they both made over $3.6 mil. I can go on and on but I think that you get the message.

Lets see

Vujacic: Overpaid, he absolutely fell off from the previous years finals. 800k Shannon Brown took his minutes

AMMO: Bust, still on rookie contract but they aquired him to get rid of Radmonovics 2 year deal so a salary dump

Wally Z: Vet expiring got paid by McHale.....nuff said

Pavlovic: got paid when he was actually starting or a top sub, was end of the bench fodder traded as an expiring or unguranteed contract filler for Shaq

Tony Battie: Was Dwight's number one backup so he was not the 10th man Gortat was actually behind him in the depth chart

Redick: Bust, on rookie deal.

Moore: made 1.2 mill last year but was a mid season signing by the C's so only made 371k with them

Scalabrine: End of the bench fodder making 3.4 mill only saw time because of massive amount of injuries, I believe he was overpaid by the Nets and his contract fit so perfectly as filler for trades.

Steven Hunter: Was paid when he was actually playing decent minutes based on him being a 7footer with potential but Denver still acquired a cheaper option to replace him in......

Johan Petro: making 1.9 mill

Brian Cook: 3.5mil, overpaid when you consider he saw 171 minutes total last year despite not having any injuries and the Houston frontline being decimated, hmm. Was used as cap filler as part of the Rafer Alston trade (someone productive)

Oberto: was paid 3.6 when he was starting, obviously his poor play and unguranteed deal is what led him to being included a salary dump for the Bucks then Pistons

Kurt Thomas: making 3.8 but he's been trade fodder himself for the past few years actually is still productive.

After all that you only proved my point by pointing out overpaid unproductive subs eating away at these teams' cap that got traded over and over again as filler or expirings. Apparently whoever signed them weren't happy about any of these deals yet you want OUR FO to make the same mistakes these other teams made? That doesn't seem like valid points helping your argument unless your argument is that every team needs overpaid end of the bench players that will only see minutes if the starter, his sub and then his sub's sub are injured in order to be contenders.

Edited July 28, 2009 by CrawfulToCrawesome

[jy23]

Lets see

Vujacic: Overpaid, he absolutely fell off from the previous years finals. 800k Shannon Brown took his minutes

AMMO: Bust, still on rookie contract but they aquired him to get rid of Radmonovics 2 year deal so a salary dump

Wally Z: Vet expiring got paid by McHale.....nuff said

Pavlovic: got paid when he was actually starting or a top sub, was end of the bench fodder traded as an expiring or unguranteed contract filler for Shaq

Tony Battie: Was Dwight's number one backup so he was not the 10th man Gortat was actually behind him in the depth chart

Redick: Bust, on rookie deal.

Moore: made 1.2 mill last year but was a mid season signing by the C's so only made 371k with them

Scalabrine: End of the bench fodder making 3.4 mill only saw time because of massive amount of injuries, I believe he was overpaid by the Nets and his contract fit so perfectly as filler for trades.

Steven Hunter: Was paid when he was actually playing decent minutes based on him being a 7footer with potential but Denver still acquired a cheaper option to replace him in......

Johan Petro: making 1.9 mill

Brian Cook: 3.5mil, overpaid when you consider he saw 171 minutes total last year despite not having any injuries and the Houston frontline being decimated, hmm. Was used as cap filler as part of the Rafer Alston trade (someone productive)

Oberto: was paid 3.6 when he was starting, obviously his poor play and unguranteed deal is what led him to being included a salary dump for the Bucks then Pistons

Kurt Thomas: making 3.8 but he's been trade fodder himself for the past few years actually is still productive.

After all that you only proved my point by pointing out overpaid unproductive subs eating away at these teams' cap that got traded over and over again as filler or expirings. Apparently whoever signed them weren't happy about any of these deals yet you want OUR FO to make the same mistakes these other teams made? That doesn't seem like valid points helping your argument unless your argument is that every team needs overpaid end of the bench players that will only see minutes if the starter, his sub and then his sub's sub are injured in order to be contenders.

Couldnt agree more, more spending doesn't exactly equal winning! If we were actually spending lots of money on these end of the bench players that we're talking about I'm pretty sure there would be lots of people on the board complaining about them wasting money, ownership really can't win for losing!

[DrReality]

Looking at the total picture, going with a combo like Pops, Siler & Hunter to finish off the bench would be a pennywise/pound foolish disaster, IMO. For goodness sake, you should have kept Solo if you wanted to save a few $$s! The only reason to rescind the QO for him and let him go cheap to the Pacers is if you plan to upgrade.

Agree totally. They better have a better plan to fill that spot. And Siler won't cut it. Need a vet.

[thescout5]

Couldnt agree more, more spending doesn't exactly equal winning! If we were actually spending lots of money on these end of the bench players that we're talking about I'm pretty sure there would be lots of people on the board complaining about them wasting money, ownership really can't win for losing!

My point is we all know the Hawks need a big man and the best they can do is resign Zaza? Even with ZaZa the Hawks got ate up vs Cleveland.Home record is good but if you want to win championships you need to win on the road. The pickings are getting slim since other teams have taken the few big men available and the Hawks lucky to get scraps. How as the team improved in rebounding and blocked shots this whole off season?

Spending a few million gives the team depth and I can asure you over a long season injuries take their toll and players get tired. I guess Woody will have the starrters play most of the minutes again this year only to be worn out or to injured to mount any kind of hope to go deep in the playoffs. Teams are not afraid of the Hawks interior defense and drive at will ending in layups or easy assists for point guards.Given we have Teague,Crawford and the same crew back mostly instead of losing by 20+ vs Cleveland will probably lose by 10-15 next time we see them in the playoffs. Shaq might be getting old bu t he is better than any interior bigman on the Hawks bench and he plays for Cleveland now. I see alot of other teams maturing or getting better so the Hawks better be prepared .It was great making the playoffs last year but do we really want to settle for getting ousted every year in the first or second round? I don't see the Hawk's closing the gap but I hope they prove me wrong.

[Peoriabird]

1st you said

You need to ask yourself and take the time to research what those teams are paying their 10th-12th man. I assure you they are not wasting money overpaying those positions.

and then you said

After all that you only proved my point by pointing out overpaid unproductive subs eating away at these teams' cap that got traded over and over again as filler or expirings. Apparently whoever signed them weren't happy about any of these deals yet you want OUR FO to make the same mistakes these other teams made? That doesn't seem like valid points helping your argument unless your argument is that every team needs overpaid end of the bench players that will only see minutes if the starter, his sub and then his sub's sub are injured in order to be contenders.

You went Diesel on me! I just offered evidence to refute your initial claim that Championship team don't pay players 10-12. And we all agree that you shouldn't waste money but signing a productive player at spot 10 on your roster is not exactly a radical notion especially when you are a team that is thin in the front court like we are.

[frosgrim]

IMO the Hawks are trying to Joe Smith, hence letting Solo go. Its just going to take a while.

The other issue is what is Marvin seeking? That pay will determine how close to the LT the team is; there are still a couple of moving parts that need to be settled before the roster is completed. Yes, the Hawks have lost out on Wilcox, but as others have pointed out, he probably wasn't going to get a chance to competed for major minutes (15+). The next guys on the list are Joe Smith and Gooden. I don't think Gooden is that good a fit with the Hawks. Joe S is a very good fit.

If Joe Smith does end up signing with someone else, then I think we can say that Sund wiffed on getting that desperately needed backup 4. Until then, we should be a little more patient and see what develops.

[DrReality]

Seems an analogy is applicable here. If you buy an expensive car and put cheap oil in it you put your investment at risk. Same with the bakcups we've talking about. If you don't have the guys coming off the bench, like our past, you put the rest of the investment at risk.IE wear JJ out.

[macdaddy]

Wow. I didn't realize that my job as a fan included so much responsibility. I guess if I went to more games the team could afford and be more motivated to win a championship. Do I get credit for watching on tv? They do sell advertising for that. I guess we really are being under appreciative of the owners who after the longest playoff drought in the league have pieced together 1.5 competitive seasons for us to enjoy on the backs of 6 quality players. I would hate to see us waste money on guys who will mainly be useful to win playoff series or in the super unlikely event that someone gets hurt. I mean that's a really small percentage of the games.

Sorry. I had to get that out. I understand that a million dollars is a lot of money and I support the ASG in not bankrupting the franchise with bad contracts. But we are talking about one year deals. There have been questions about how knowledgeable Atlanta fans are but we know the difference between a contender and simply a competitive team. The ASG has made us competitive again but are they willing to take the next step? If not then they blew it up in order to just build it back to where it was which isn't what anyone signed on for especially the fans who had to endure multiple lottery seasons. Build it and they will come. The major construction is done. We're just working on the punchlist but its not done yet.

[MaceCase]

1st you said

and then you said

You went Diesel on me! I just offered evidence to refute your initial claim that Championship team don't pay players 10-12. And we all agree that you shouldn't waste money but signing a productive player at spot 10 on your roster is not exactly a radical notion especially when you are a team that is thin in the front court like we are.

Oh boy, hmmmm that hurt deep.......but suprisingly you were the one that went Diesel on me by editing my post and ignoring my points.

You need to ask yourself and take the time to research what those teams are paying their 10th-12th man. I assure you they are not wasting money overpaying those positions.

Edit: Willingly.....

off my head I know Luke Walton is practically the second to last man off the bench and he's making full MLE for the Lakers

I remember I went back and I said no contender pays those guys willingly to be that deep in the rotation.

anyway did you see my point really when I described each and every one of those players?

Vujacic: Overpaid, he absolutely fell off from the previous years finals. 800k Shannon Brown took his minutes

AMMO: Bust, still on rookie contract but they aquired him to get rid of Radmonovics 2 year deal so a salary dump

Wally Z: Vet expiring got paid by McHale.....nuff said

Pavlovic: got paid when he was actually starting or a top sub, was end of the bench fodder traded as an expiring or unguranteed contract filler for Shaq

Tony Battie: Was Dwight's number one backup so he was not the 10th man Gortat was actually behind him in the depth chart

Redick: Bust, on rookie deal.

Moore: made 1.2 mill last year but was a mid season signing by the C's so only made 371k with them

Scalabrine: End of the bench fodder making 3.4 mill only saw time because of massive amount of injuries, I believe he was overpaid by the Nets and his contract fit so perfectly as filler for trades.

Steven Hunter: Was paid when he was actually playing decent minutes based on him being a 7footer with potential but Denver still acquired a cheaper option to replace him in......

Johan Petro: making 1.9 mill

Brian Cook: 3.5mil, overpaid when you consider he saw 171 minutes total last year despite not having any injuries and the Houston frontline being decimated, hmm. Was used as cap filler as part of the Rafer Alston trade (someone productive)

Oberto: was paid 3.6 when he was starting, obviously his poor play and unguranteed deal is what led him to being included a salary dump for the Bucks then Pistons

Kurt Thomas: making 3.8 but he's been trade fodder himself for the past few years actually is still productive.

I bolded the very relevent parts of that list incase you overlooked them. When they all those making 3 mill and above got paid it was not to be 10-12th men, they were paid to be starters and 6th men or were high lottery picks thought to be productive. These guys were paid because they had contributed in the past or were thought to be able to contribute but all ended up having much cheaper options beating them out and playing over them. They had the actual 10-12th man actually playing over them and contributing not them. In the end almost each and everyone of them have been traded to acquire someone actually worth making their salary or cheaper options more effective than them.

Again you are not helping your argument by saying we should do the reverse and overpay a sub we know is not going to contribute much rather than do what these teams did which was pay a starter or key reserve decent money only to have them unfortunately sink to the bench.

Just think of our team last year, Flip was brought in to be our 10th man or so making the vet minimum and he played over the 6 million dollar man Speedy and the lottery pick Acie, both were making more money than him. You don't pay your 10-12th man 3 million to be the 10-12th man you paid them to be something more, only their sucking is what made them drop in the rotation.

[Peoriabird]

Oh boy, hmmmm that hurt deep.......but suprisingly you were the one that went Diesel on me by editing my post and ignoring my points.

I remember I went back and I said no contender pays those guys willingly to be that deep in the rotation.

anyway did you see my point really when I described each and every one of those players?

I bolded the very relevent parts of that list incase you overlooked them. When they all those making 3 mill and above got paid it was not to be 10-12th men, they were paid to be starters and 6th men or were high lottery picks thought to be productive. These guys were paid because they had contributed in the past or were thought to be able to contribute but all ended up having much cheaper options beating them out and playing over them. They had the actual 10-12th man actually playing over them and contributing not them. In the end almost each and everyone of them have been traded to acquire someone actually worth making their salary or cheaper options more effective than them.

Again you are not helping your argument by saying we should do the reverse and overpay a sub we know is not going to contribute much rather than do what these teams did which was pay a starter or key reserve decent money only to have them unfortunately sink to the bench.

Just think of our team last year, Flip was brought in to be our 10th man or so making the vet minimum and he played over the 6 million dollar man Speedy and the lottery pick Acie, both were making more money than him. You don't pay your 10-12th man 3 million to be the 10-12th man you paid them to be something more, only their sucking is what made them drop in the rotation.

That was kinda complicated but the tenth man is usually a back up on most teams not a back up to the back up

[MaceCase]

That was kinda complicated but the tenth man is usually a back up on most teams not a back up to the back up

Maybe in Hubie Brown's magical Grizzlies world where he played two 5 man rotations but in most cases your 6-8th man are the key reserves, 9-10 spot role players, 11-12 deep bench.

[AHF]

Seems an analogy is applicable here. If you buy an expensive car and put cheap oil in it you put your investment at risk. Same with the bakcups we've talking about. If you don't have the guys coming off the bench, like our past, you put the rest of the investment at risk.IE wear JJ out.

Oooh, I like that one better than my car/brake analogy. Nicely put.

[Admin]

Oooh, I like that one better than my car/brake analogy. Nicely put.

Hmm I think the oil would be better suited as the description for the coaching staff. Or maybe the fluids in general.

I think putting cheap brakes (or any cheap parts) on an expensive car is a great analogy for the bench players since they are generally an afterthought much like brakes are on cars.