Lets say Joe Johnson dont sign with us next season.....

[jy23]

Okay JY since that reading comprehension thing is getting in the way I'll stop. Having players of either a guard or big quality be of allstar caliber, not selection, doesn't fit the equation neither does the all NBA selection in said year. No need to even explain advanced metrics such as pace so why bother. The advanced mind sees no 20 point scorer so obviously that team doesn't count riiight. This thread is entertaining beacause after how many years it seems we've been arguing the wrong issues with the team. The real issue apparently has always been at SG not the frontcourt. But aye cheers to you.

:laughing5: ok give me a minute...............ok now, ur formula requires a top 10 defensive team right? Hawks were 10th last year, add a player like wade and I'm pretty sure that jumps up..2 allstar CALIBER players right? Wade is an mvp candidate so thats one and if those pistons players were allstar CALIBER with their stats then josh smith is an allstar CALIBER player....u said they needed a 3rd player who was capable of playing at an allstar level on occasion, we have 2, Bibby and Crawford. Ok now what do we lack now? I made this one very simple, i didn't try to appeal to ur intelligence like i've been doing throughout the thread I just made it plain and simple. Now read and comprehend this, WHAT ARE WE LACKING FROM UR MAGICAL FORMULA? Or are u going to go back to us needing a big to be contenders? Or are u going to stick with this one this time? I'm really waiting to see how u respond or "tap dance" around this one. Come on Craw.....entertain me.....

Edited September 29, 2009 by jy21

[TheNorthCydeRises]

@ AHF:

I could take the easy way out, and say that Mo DID make the All-Star team, while Josh Smith didn't. But I won't do that. I'll concede partially that Mo Williams didn't have the usual All-Star #s for a PG that makes an All-Star team.

But what Mo did, was establish himself as the undisputed #2 option in that Cavs offense. The reason why he got the nod, was that he was playing at a borderline All-Star level in January and February, averaging around 19 ppg as the Cavs 2nd option.

Did he deserve to make the team after Jameer Nelson couldn't play in the game . . absolutely. Plus, he was ranked #4 on the Northcyde Jumpshot Index last year. ( lol . . had to throw that in there ).

As far as the formula, the Cavs did have:

- the All-NBA player in Lebron

- a top 5 defense ( mainly because they could get stops and rebound the basketball )

- Mo functioning sometimes as that 2nd All-Star ( more consistently in 2nd half of season )

- Big Z functioning as the 3rd scorer sporadically ( especially against the Hawks )

Mo sold the Cavs out a little with his erratic shooting in the playoffs. Big Z really sold the Cavs out, by not being able to be that 3rd guy offensively.

As we know, that forced Lebron to try to do everything, which played right into Orlando's hands. If it wasn't for the luck shot that Lebron hit to win Game 3 ( I think ), the Cavs get swept.

My whole argument against how the Wade / JJ swap somehow makes us title contenders, is the exact thing thart Craw mentions a few posts ago.

The glaring weakness of this team was finding a #2 scorer, and some frontline help. Crawford supposedly solves the #2 scorer problem, but we address the frontline by basically adding 2 veteran, but scrub big men. Hopefully, they function as the type of "glue pieces" that every team needs.

But the bulk of the work on the frontline has to be done by Horford and Josh. They're the ones that will have to elevate their games on a good team, in order for them to get to the next level.

So if they don't do that this season, how are we going to deal with Orlando ( Howard ), Boston ( KG ) and Cleveland ( Shaq ) in the playoffs? And each of those teams now have an All-Star caliber G/SF to go along with that big man ( Carter, Pierce, and Lebron ). And they have a 3rd guy ( Nelson, Ray Allen, and now Mo Williams )

Then you look out West and see Lakers ( Kobe and Gasol + Artest ), Houston ( Yao and T-Mac . . if heallthy ), Denver ( Billups and Melo + JR Smith ), San Antonio ( Duncan and Parker + Ginobli ( if healthy )

All of those teams have "the formula". Even with a Wade on the Hawks, we still wouldn't have it.

That's why I say it's more on one or two of the kids rapidly improving, in order to elevate us to "title contender level", than simply switching out an All-Star SG, for a Superstar SG. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be good, because we would. We just wouldn't be able to get it done as far as winning or even playing for a title.

The "formula" is correct far more often, than it is incorrect. The "formula" is also the reason why a team like Washington, ( with Arenas, Jamison, and Butler ), will more than likely NEVER contend for a title. They'll be good, but they won't be able to beat a team with "the formula" in a 7 game series.

[jy23]

@ AHF:

I could take the easy way out, and say that Mo DID make the All-Star team, while Josh Smith didn't. But I won't do that. I'll concede partially that Mo Williams didn't have the usual All-Star #s for a PG that makes an All-Star team.

But what Mo did, was establish himself as the undisputed #2 option in that Cavs offense. The reason why he got the nod, was that he was playing at a borderline All-Star level in January and February, averaging around 19 ppg as the Cavs 2nd option.

Did he deserve to make the team after Jameer Nelson couldn't play in the game . . absolutely. Plus, he was ranked #4 on the Northcyde Jumpshot Index last year. ( lol . . had to throw that in there ).

As far as the formula, the Cavs did have:

- the All-NBA player in Lebron

- a top 5 defense ( mainly because they could get stops and rebound the basketball )

- Mo functioning sometimes as that 2nd All-Star ( more consistently in 2nd half of season )

- Big Z functioning as the 3rd scorer sporadically ( especially against the Hawks )

Mo sold the Cavs out a little with his erratic shooting in the playoffs. Big Z really sold the Cavs out, by not being able to be that 3rd guy offensively.

As we know, that forced Lebron to try to do everything, which played right into Orlando's hands. If it wasn't for the luck shot that Lebron hit to win Game 3 ( I think ), the Cavs get swept.

My whole argument against how the Wade / JJ swap somehow makes us title contenders, is the exact thing thart Craw mentions a few posts ago.

The glaring weakness of this team was finding a #2 scorer, and some frontline help. Crawford supposedly solves the #2 scorer problem, but we address the frontline by basically adding 2 veteran, but scrub big men. Hopefully, they function as the type of "glue pieces" that every team needs.

But the bulk of the work on the frontline has to be done by Horford and Josh. They're the ones that will have to elevate their games on a good team, in order for them to get to the next level.

So if they don't do that this season, how are we going to deal with Orlando ( Howard ), Boston ( KG ) and Cleveland ( Shaq ) in the playoffs? And each of those teams now have an All-Star caliber G/SF to go along with that big man ( Carter, Pierce, and Lebron ). And they have a 3rd guy ( Nelson, Ray Allen, and now Mo Williams )

Then you look out West and see Lakers ( Kobe and Gasol + Artest ), Houston ( Yao and T-Mac . . if heallthy ), Denver ( Billups and Melo + JR Smith ), San Antonio ( Duncan and Parker + Ginobli ( if healthy )

All of those teams have "the formula". Even with a Wade on the Hawks, we still wouldn't have it.

That's why I say it's more on one or two of the kids rapidly improving, in order to elevate us to "title contender level", than simply switching out an All-Star SG, for a Superstar SG. That doesn't mean we wouldn't be good, because we would. We just wouldn't be able to get it done as far as winning or even playing for a title.

The "formula" is correct far more often, than it is incorrect. The "formula" is also the reason why a team like Washington, ( with Arenas, Jamison, and Butler ), will more than likely NEVER contend for a title. They'll be good, but they won't be able to beat a team with "the formula" in a 7 game series.

Sorry North, when i keep talking about the Cavs i'm talking about that group that lebron took the finals with a group of scrubs....maybe i should have been more specific about that.

[AHF]

Sorry North, when i keep talking about the Cavs i'm talking about that group that lebron took the finals with a group of scrubs....maybe i should have been more specific about that.

I am not. I don't understand the idea that Mo Williams was anything but mediocre last season. Every knows he is a subpar defender and that this is not really factored into PER. So where did he rank last season by that more favorable measure among Eastern Conference point guards?

Devin Harris 21.6

Jameer Nelson 20.6

Nate Robinson 18.9

Gilbert Arenas 18.9 (inconsequential sample size)

Rajon Rondo 18.8

Jose Calderon 18.7

Andre Miller 18.6

Ramon Sessions 17.6

Chauncy Billups 17.5 (for games in the East - better in the West)

Mo William 17.2

TJ Ford 16.6

Mike Bibby 16.3

Derick Rose 16.0

Raymond Felton 13.7

Mario Chalmers 13.3

Mike James 9.9

Talk about riding Lebron's coattails and a fortunate (for Mo) injury to an All-Star birth.

Williams would have been the worst PG in the entire Atlantic Division and was bottom of the pack in the entire Eastern Conference.

I can't believe anyone is seriously going to ride Mo Williams as the second All-Star worthy player for establishing championship criteria. I'll give him credit for being better than retreads, rookies, and people on the last stage of their career, but he doesn't impress and is certainly no Scottie Pippen, John Stockton, Paul Pierce, type of player.

If Lebron was playing for the Hawks, Mo would not have gotten tickets to the All-Star game, let alone an invite.

[MaceCase]

:laughing5: ok give me a minute...............ok now, ur formula requires a top 10 defensive team right? Hawks were 10th last year (11th actually in DRTG, points allowed is not an accurate measure of defense because it doesn't factor in pace) , add a player like wade and I'm pretty sure that jumps up (Why do you assume so?)..2 allstar CALIBER players right? Wade is an mvp candidate so thats one and if those pistons players were allstar CALIBER with their stats then josh smith is an allstar CALIBER player....u said they needed a 3rd player who was capable of playing at an allstar level on occasion, we have 2, Bibby and Crawford. Ok now what do we lack now? I made this one very simple, i didn't try to appeal to ur intelligence like i've been doing throughout the thread I just made it plain and simple. Now read and comprehend this, WHAT ARE WE LACKING FROM UR MAGICAL FORMULA? Or are u going to go back to us needing a big to be contenders? Or are u going to stick with this one this time? I'm really waiting to see how u respond or "tap dance" around this one. Come on Craw.....entertain me.....

I don't like referring to PER because like AHF said it doesn't factor in defense but let's just compare that Piston team's frontline PER that year with our players last year

Ben Wallace-17.3

Rasheed Wallace-18.8

Josh Smith-17.1

Al Horford-17.0

Now again based on PER that line was already superior but I feel the added advantage is in the fact Ben Wallace was the most dominant defensive center for the better part of the early decade and Rasheed Wallace was then and still now known as one of the best man to man post defenders without question. The Wallace's could effectively single cover Shaq whereas our boys have trouble with Big Baby and Bogut. If you also notice AHF is even questioning the legitimacy of Mo Williams allstar selection yet as unwarranted as that selection was he still slightly beat out Josh as the supposed Robin to a superstar. Let's roll down that roster some more.

Chauncey Billups-18.6

Mike Bibby-16.3 and I doubt anybody would confuse Mike with the defensive stopper that Chauncey is at PG.

Rip Hamilton-16.8

Marvin Williams-16.0

Now this team is built on that Piston model, as Buzz snarkily said to give us hope for not having a superstar, but apparently even with Wade and his amazing PER of 30, the rest of our supporting cast is not even as good as that Piston core on O or D. Shocker right?

I will say this again as I have been in tandem with North this whole way, Josh or Al if not both need to play up to the level of the Garnett's, Howards, Shaq's, Pau's of the league because our issue is not at our SG's ability to dominate but rather our frontline's ability to consistently dominate on both ends but hey, emoticon emoticon "come on Craw" and what not.

[sillent]

Just a quick question. Can you name the top 10 players in the league? Where is JJ? Where is Wade?

We are currently as of now considered to be contenders for the ECF (some may agree/disagree but it is in discussion). If we keep following the path we have for the last 5 years it is probable. Are you seriously saying that adding/swapping JJ for Wade would not make us contenders. The question,topic, discussion is that simple. Contenders do not always win it all hence the name CONTENDERS but they do Contend!!

[Duff_Man]

Players that we could get that would make me boycott the team until they were gone:

Paul Pierce

Dewayne Wade

Kevin Garnett

Charlie V

Randolph Morris

I am sure there's a couple more, but I could never watch any of these guys in a Hawks uni without getting sick to my stomach.

[jy23]

CRAW STOP!!!!!!! I use your formula to prove that our team could contend based on YOUR criteria, so instead of sticking with that u start comparing our team player by player to the 2004 pistons. ?????????????????????????U can't b serious??????????????????? What happened to the formula now Craw? Does it not count since we would now meet that formula? Come on "Fred Astaire"......keep it up......like i said earlier i understand not wanting to b wrong but man ur taking this to another level! U even talked about Mo getting the allstar nod over Josh, was he replacing a guard or a foward? Ok so Craw is it now based on per? First it was ur formula then it was we need a dominant big then it was ur formula again and now its per, I'm confused, where are we going now? Anything u can come up with to ignore the obvious right, WITH WADE WE WOULD CONTEND! Its simple, i've proved that in this thread already based on the FORMULA that was given. So come on and entertain me with more of your "tap dancing"...............I'm waiting!

[AHF]

Players that we could get that would make me boycott the team until they were gone:

Paul Pierce

Dewayne Wade

Kevin Garnett

Charlie V

Randolph Morris

I am sure there's a couple more, but I could never watch any of these guys in a Hawks uni without getting sick to my stomach.

Are you boycotting the team now b/c of Morris? Why does he bring out that strong a reaction?

[EazyRoc]

Are you boycotting the team now b/c of Morris? Why does he bring out that strong a reaction?

I'm going to assume he meant Zach Randolph or something.

[EazyRoc]

CRAW STOP!!!!!!! I use your formula to prove that our team could contend based on YOUR criteria, so instead of sticking with that u start comparing our team player by player to the 2004 pistons. ?????????????????????????U can't b serious??????????????????? What happened to the formula now Craw? Does it not count since we would now meet that formula? Come on "Fred Astaire"......keep it up......like i said earlier i understand not wanting to b wrong but man ur taking this to another level! U even talked about Mo getting the allstar nod over Josh, was he replacing a guard or a foward? Ok so Craw is it now based on per? First it was ur formula then it was we need a dominant big then it was ur formula again and now its per, I'm confused, where are we going now? Anything u can come up with to ignore the obvious right, WITH WADE WE WOULD CONTEND! Its simple, i've proved that in this thread already based on the FORMULA that was given. So come on and entertain me with more of your "tap dancing"...............I'm waiting!

Give up man. You've got your opinion, he's got his. For the more reasonable people who watch the NBA, it's obvious that the Hawks would be in contention for a title. By the way he keeps adding more qualifications it takes to be a contender ( :lol6: ), he's just going to drag this on and on.

Edited September 29, 2009 by EazyRoc

[Admin]

My 2 cents on this.

1. The Hawks are a contender now. We're capable of beating any team in the league and if we remain healthy I like our chances.

2. Joe Johnson is a very good player but not a superstar.

3. Dwayne Wade is a superstar player.

Therefore replacing Joe Johnson with Dwayne Wade makes us a better team. Of course you have to consider chemistry (although Wade appears to be loved by teammates) and you'd have to consider the players that we'd have to give up to make the deal work under the cap and match the talent gap.

So considering whether a real world deal for Wade would make us better or not I'd have to say no simply because we'd lose one of our young core players.

[Buzzard]

My 2 cents on this.

1. The Hawks are a contender now. We're capable of beating any team in the league and if we remain healthy I like our chances.

2. Joe Johnson is a very good player but not a superstar.

3. Dwayne Wade is a superstar player.

Therefore replacing Joe Johnson with Dwayne Wade makes us a better team. Of course you have to consider chemistry (although Wade appears to be loved by teammates) and you'd have to consider the players that we'd have to give up to make the deal work under the cap and match the talent gap.

So considering whether a real world deal for Wade would make us better or not I'd have to say no simply because we'd lose one of our young core players.

Unless its a fantasy snt of JJ, scrub, and our 1st for Wade...at least Miami gets something of star value for Wade.lol

Otherwise yes. Miami would probably want not one but two of our core players or if Teague shows promise, one core and Teague. Either way, we would be weaker not better in the real world,

Edited September 29, 2009 by Buzzard

[jy23]

Give up man. You've got your opinion, he's got his. For the more reasonable people who watch the NBA, it's obvious that the Hawks would be in contention for a title. By the way he keeps adding more qualifications it takes to be a contender ( :lol6: ), he's just going to drag this on and on.

Ur right, I quit!

[AHF]

Either way, we would be weaker not better in the real world,

I don't know that I necessarily agree with that. My general rule of thumb is that the team that lands the better player wins the trade and under that scenario if we gave up say Smith and JJ for Wade, I don't know that we wouldn't end up better than sticking with the status quo. It is a lot easier to make up most of the loss with a good but not great player than it is to make up for the lack of a great player.

[sillent]

Players that we could get that would make me boycott the team until they were gone:

Dewayne Wade

Kevin Garnett

Charlie V

I am sure there's a couple more, but I could never watch any of these guys in a Hawks uni without getting sick to my stomach.

Wow you named 3 of my favorite players(I got probably at least 20 with Smoove being # 1 and Wade and Garnett being top 5). I respect them but of course they will always be rooted against when playing the Hawks (Garnett gave me a sour taste with the Celtics series but I kinda felt bad for Wade with all the weight lifting he had to do to even contend). While Morris is on the team that's not nice but I guess everyone has their Hero's, Villians, and Civilians.

[Duff_Man]

Are you boycotting the team now b/c of Morris? Why does he bring out that strong a reaction?

Holy hell! I meant ZACH RANDOLPH.

[MaceCase]

CRAW STOP!!!!!!! I use your formula to prove that our team could contend based on YOUR criteria, so instead of sticking with that u start comparing our team player by player to the 2004 pistons. ?????????????????????????U can't b serious??????????????????? What happened to the formula now Craw? Does it not count since we would now meet that formula? Come on "Fred Astaire"......keep it up......like i said earlier i understand not wanting to b wrong but man ur taking this to another level! U even talked about Mo getting the allstar nod over Josh, was he replacing a guard or a foward? Ok so Craw is it now based on per? First it was ur formula then it was we need a dominant big then it was ur formula again and now its per, I'm confused, where are we going now? Anything u can come up with to ignore the obvious right, WITH WADE WE WOULD CONTEND! Its simple, i've proved that in this thread already based on the FORMULA that was given. So come on and entertain me with more of your "tap dancing"...............I'm waiting!

Okay you asked a question and I've answered it a dozen times but you're not man enough to admit the reality of the answer. You really are flattering me using my own material while still failing to comprehend reality.

North came up with the formula for which every champion for the past 30 years have lived by and those that remained in contention over 1 season also live by said criteria. You said the Pistons broke the mold and I proved that they didn't considering

A) They had an allstar center and even to diffuse any "no bigmen in the east" argument he was all league.

B) They had an allstar guard evident by what scrub has the potential win a finals MVP?

C) A two time allstar big whom I'm sure you believe completely fell off the face of the world in the middle of his prime

D) A top 3 defense

Your argument became "oh but they didn't make an allstar game that particular season" to which I'm going to respond "so Kobe didn't win an MVP last season, he therefore was not an MVP quality player last season or any other for that matter"

You continue with the argument well the Pistons did it with nobody, we could with a star. I brought in PER to show you that everyone on that team was actually better than our team and that stat doesn't even factor in their world class defense. If people are going to rightfully accuse Mo Williams of not being worthy of an allstar selection how exactly does your argument that Smoove would be the secondary allstar on our team when he was actually worse than Mo Williams was last year hold up?

You keep bringing up Lebron's Cavs, I established

A) He's better

B) He made it with a 50 win team in a weaker east and he hasn't been close since thanks to.....

C) Not having a legitimate star big for which amazingly they went out to acquire this year.

Now you continue using the word "contender" just as a catchphrase but how does that actually work in reality? There are only 4-5 teams in contention for a title in any given season and we are currently sitting 4th in the current east in need of gaining over 15 wins just to establish homecourt advantage over any of our rivals which is vital to any contender's hopes. Now without bulls****** yourself tell me how a 6'4" shooting guard is going to put a team that was 23rd in rebounding, 8th worse in rebounding allowed and almost dead last in rebounding differential over the top of the other 3 contender hopefuls in our own conference that all sport allstar big men and were all inside the top ten in rebounding while also increasing our 11th ranked defense to within the 1, 2 and 3 spots that they occupy? It would seem our team's issue lay in the frontcourt rather than the backcourt now wouldn't it seeing as those positions have more influence over those statistical standings rather than a 6'4" shooting guard.

There's wishful thinking and then there is ****ing delusion. Wade on the Hawks makes the team a contender only in a vacuum not in the reality that is the 2009-10 and beyond NBA where your team actually has to go out and play these other teams. The argument hasn't changed, the formula still stands and the only thing I would be tap dancing on is the grave that your argument lies in but aye you're still free to jock me some more.

[jy23]

Okay you asked a question and I've answered it a dozen times but you're not man enough to admit the reality of the answer. You really are flattering me using my own material while still failing to comprehend reality.

North came up with the formula for which every champion for the past 30 years have lived by and those that remained in contention over 1 season also live by said criteria. You said the Pistons broke the mold and I proved that they didn't considering

A) They had an allstar center and even to diffuse any "no bigmen in the east" argument he was all league.

B) They had an allstar guard evident by what scrub has the potential win a finals MVP?

C) A two time allstar big whom I'm sure you believe completely fell off the face of the world in the middle of his prime

D) A top 3 defense

Your argument became "oh but they didn't make an allstar game that particular season" to which I'm going to respond "so Kobe didn't win an MVP last season, he therefore was not an MVP quality player last season or any other for that matter"

You continue with the argument well the Pistons did it with nobody, we could with a star. I brought in PER to show you that everyone on that team was actually better than our team and that stat doesn't even factor in their world class defense. If people are going to rightfully accuse Mo Williams of not being worthy of an allstar selection how exactly does your argument that Smoove would be the secondary allstar on our team when he was actually worse than Mo Williams was last year hold up?

You keep bringing up Lebron's Cavs, I established

A) He's better

B) He made it with a 50 win team in a weaker east and he hasn't been close since thanks to.....

C) Not having a legitimate star big for which amazingly they went out to acquire this year.

Now you continue using the word "contender" just as a catchphrase but how does that actually work in reality? There are only 4-5 teams in contention for a title in any given season and we are currently sitting 4th in the current east in need of gaining over 15 wins just to establish homecourt advantage over any of our rivals which is vital to any contender's hopes. Now without bulls****** yourself tell me how a 6'4" shooting guard is going to put a team that was 23rd in rebounding, 8th worse in rebounding allowed and almost dead last in rebounding differential over the top of the other 3 contender hopefuls in our own conference that all sport allstar big men and were all inside the top ten in rebounding while also increasing our 11th ranked defense to within the 1, 2 and 3 spots that they occupy? It would seem our team's issue lay in the frontcourt rather than the backcourt now wouldn't it seeing as those positions have more influence over those statistical standings rather than a 6'4" shooting guard.

There's wishful thinking and then there is ****ing delusion. Wade on the Hawks makes the team a contender only in a vacuum not in the reality that is the 2009-10 and beyond NBA where your team actually has to go out and play these other teams. The argument hasn't changed, the formula still stands and the only thing I would be tap dancing on is the grave that your argument lies in but aye you're still free to jock me some more.

I thought we were done with this? Let me start off by saying that Craw I respect u as a poster and I find myself agreeing with u more times than not, just so happens that this is one of the topics that I disagree with u on. If I offended u at all in this thread at any time let me apologize, I'm not one to call names and throw insults to try and prove a point, at least i thought i wasn't, but i felt very strongly about this particular subject and i guess it just brought it out of me. Now you feel one way and I feel another about this thing so there's no point in us talking about it anymore, I'm done so you win......on to another thread n hopefully we can agree on something else later on. :handshake:

[MaceCase]

I thought we were done with this? Let me start off by saying that Craw I respect u as a poster and I find myself agreeing with u more times than not, just so happens that this is one of the topics that I disagree with u on. If I offended u at all in this thread at any time let me apologize, I'm not one to call names and throw insults to try and prove a point, at least i thought i wasn't, but i felt very strongly about this particular subject and i guess it just brought it out of me. Now you feel one way and I feel another about this thing so there's no point in us talking about it anymore, I'm done so you win......on to another thread n hopefully we can agree on something else later on. :handshake:

Fair enough :beer11: