Marvin deserves to be flamed....

[Diesel]

As usual your memory is bad. I argued against him for many reasons.

-his inability to defend any position

-his inability to create for himself offensively

-his inability to score outside of 5 feet

-his cherry picking

-his slowness getting back on defense.

His efficiency was the only thing he had going for him and you loved him for it. You used to use that all the time to make him look better than Marvin.

Haha... You flopped. You never even knew why I appreciated Chillz game. Because unlike Marvin, Chillz was constantly working to get those "Cherry Picked" points. He would move without the ball and I still believe that he added a component to our game that substituted for our lack of low post scoring. During out time with Chillz, I remember you saying that his efficiency was unimportant. Now, you talk about Marvin and all you can say in his defense is that he's efficient? Maybe you are not the person to defend Marvin on the basis of efficiency given your documented History. It's making you look really Hypocritical there Ex... I mean just on a surface look, if you disregarded Chillz efficiency... then no way should you dare try to justify Marvin on the basis of efficiency.

[Diesel]

He improved by nearly every statistical measure other than usage rate. If you can't get over the fact that he and Josh Smith got fewer touches last season, then go ahead and throw them both under a bus. I will respectfully disagree with that conclusion.

Marvin improved. The team improved. He is a building block for our team.

That is the bottomline.

At this point, I say that you cannot honestly sit here and say that the team improvement had more to do with Marvin's contribution than it did with the addition of Flip, Mo, and a full year of Bibby. You can't convince me of that. Nor should anybody be fooled into believe that a player can contribute less in points and assists and it be said of him that his lack of contribution made the team better. Since you want to disagree with me... let's find some places where everybody can agree:

1. The addition of Bibby, Mo, and Flip contributed to our team's improvement.

2. Marvin spent more time at the perimeter than in years past.

3. Marvin was bypassed by Flip as an option in the offense.

4. Marvin played less aggressively offensively than in years past.

[AHF]

IF it pleases you you may talk about the obviousness of TS% in those calculations and if it will make you feel STONE COLD, you can even try to insult my math skills for not seeing TS% here. However, I own up to not being able to see TS% here and until you can describe it to me as being "Obvious" I will say that you're full of it.

It is obvious only if you have followed discussions on this site about PER in the past or know about the statistic. This has been discussed many times, for example, in the context of discussing Josh Childress' PER. It does not have a "TS%" category but incorporates the concept in the way it weights FGA, FTA and PTs.

In any case, the two are not at all mutually exclusive.

[AHF]

At this point, I say that you cannot honestly sit here and say that the team improvement had more to do with Marvin's contribution than it did with the addition of Flip, Mo, and a full year of Bibby.

Agreed. They were all big factors, probably the greatest of which was Bibby's contribution. According to win shares, Marvin added 1.5 wins over the prior season to the finl total. Josh Smith added 1.2 fewer wins than Marvin, for reference.

You can't convince me of that. Nor should anybody be fooled into believe that a player can contribute less in points and assists and it be said of him that his lack of contribution made the team better. Since you want to disagree with me... let's find some places where everybody can agree:

1. The addition of Bibby, Mo, and Flip contributed to our team's improvement.

2. Marvin spent more time at the perimeter than in years past.

3. Marvin was bypassed by Flip as an option in the offense.

4. Marvin played less aggressively offensively than in years past.

1. Absolutely.

2. Disagree. When he was on the perimeter, however, he was a few steps deeper. Many deep 2's turned into 3's last season but he spent essentialy equal time in the paint with his touches.

3. Agreed. Flip was the #2 option on the team last year, putting up more shots in his time than anyone not named Joe Johnson. Flip was above Marvin, Bibby, Josh, Horford, Zaza, etc.

4. Disagree. He had fewer touches but so did Josh Smith and basically everyone else who played on the floor with chuckmeister Flip.

All I have to say, is that thank goodness Flip shot a new career high by a large measure in TS% because he could have been a disaster.

[AHF]

You can't convince me of that. Nor should anybody be fooled into believe that a player can contribute less in points and assists and it be said of him that his lack of contribution made the team better.

That is exactly what sabermatricians say. For example, Ben Wallace 2002-03/2003-04 - he contributed less to the team and fewer wins to the team despite average more points, more assists and playing more games in 2003-04 compared to his more efficient 2002-03 season.

Want an examples closer to home?

Flip averaged more points and more assists in the 2003-04 season. However, his win share contribution was 1.4 fewer wins than his contribution last season.

Joe Johnson 2004-05 > 2007-08/2008-09 despite fewer pts and assists in 2004-05 (1.1 fewer wins in 2007-08, .6 fewer wins in 2008-09).

There are tons of examples of this. They are very easy to find.

Defense, rebounding, scoring efficiency and other factors can easily explain such a disparity. Those elements of a player's game have real value that is shown on the floor and in the numbers. No statistician has ever said that an increase in ppg and apg will lead to a better season in all cases for a good reason. Noone's numbers back that up -- even when different statistical measures disagree they all find that a player can produce a superior season with lower ppg and apg.

Edited October 14, 2009 by AHF

[exodus]

Haha... You flopped. You never even knew why I appreciated Chillz game. Because unlike Marvin, Chillz was constantly working to get those "Cherry Picked" points. He would move without the ball and I still believe that he added a component to our game that substituted for our lack of low post scoring. During out time with Chillz, I remember you saying that his efficiency was unimportant. Now, you talk about Marvin and all you can say in his defense is that he's efficient? Maybe you are not the person to defend Marvin on the basis of efficiency given your documented History. It's making you look really Hypocritical there Ex... I mean just on a surface look, if you disregarded Chillz efficiency... then no way should you dare try to justify Marvin on the basis of efficiency.

I already listed all of the reasons i didn't like childress. LOL @ you of all people talking about hypocrisy. Did you forget this site has a search feature?

I think what we notice is that there's a lot of underestimation of Chillz. Chillz has done what he was asked to do. He has done it well. He poses a threat on the boards for a guy his size. He is a very efficient shooter. He is a good ball handler.

My link

He scores efficently, shoots for a higher percentage than Marvin Williams, shoots more threes than Marvin, and in fewer minutes.

My link

My link

You see, this is the dumbest argument you make. Offensive limitation? He's the most offensively efficient player we have. In fact, his efficiency is through the roof.

My link

Also lost in the statistical view is that fact that CHillz is the most efficient player on the team. Probably one of the most efficent in the league.

My link

Childress never averaged more than 13 ppg and averaged only 11.8 ppg in his last season here. Where was your PPG argument then?

Edited October 14, 2009 by exodus

[Buzzard]

You can find several instances where I have made comments about Smoove needing to improve. Your requirement that it be a post that I start and secondly that it be more than 1 hands worth is silly. The point is that once again, you and a select few others are defending Marvin in a circumstance that you would never defend any other Hawk about. Guarantee when I said those things about Smoove, weather I started the post or not.. YOU SAID NOTHING. In fact, you might have even uttered a ME TOO. However, same type of discussion on Marvin gets your life long defense to the death... Why is that Buzzard?

I think Smoove is overpaid as a power forward. He is a local guy and a fan favorite; which should hold some value to the Atlanta market, so his contract can also be justified by the revenue he generates. And with all that being said, I will never agree to a aurgument that insist on benching him or trading him for inferior talent.

Now back to my question: I can't very well defend Smoove if you do not post a hate thread. Still waiting...

Edited October 14, 2009 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

I already listed all of the reasons i didn't like childress. LOL @ you of all people talking about hypocrisy. Did you forget this site has a search feature?

My link

My link

My link

My link

My link

Childress never averaged more than 13 ppg and averaged only 11.8 ppg in his last season here. Where was your PPG argument then?

In every link that you gave... It is definitely a half quote. Sometimes even in the middle of the sentence. Again, my message on Chillz was the same as it is above... For instance, your first snippet... Here's the full quote:

I think what we notice is that there's a lot of underestimation of Chillz. Chillz has done what he was asked to do. He has done it well. He poses a threat on the boards for a guy his size. He is a very efficient shooter. He is a good ball handler. He can finish with the best of them. To say he's easily replaceable or that he offers nothing is underestimating what Chillz brings. Often times, Chillz takes the pressure off of our guards and forwards by filling needs where he is needed.

Let's be honest, we are a poor post scoring team. We take away Chillz and we become poorer. He has made the post a place where defenses can't walk away from.

But more than just play. It's value. Other teams want CHillz. You mean to tell me we can't find a doable sign and trade and would just rather watch him Walk?? Then say... SO BE IT?

Even if you can replace your old plasma screen television... do you just put the other one outside and say If you can carry it it's yours?

Exodus your whole snippet game is old and tired. You can't have an honest discussion with honest intent because you are not an honest man. The subject was hypocrite. I challenge every HSer that's interested in seeing just how desparate and dishonest that Ex is in his commentary to follow his links and notice how many times he says point blank that efficiency is meaningless... And notice that the same Ex is here today trying to use efficiency as a good thing as it applies to Marvin. That's my challenge. Also, notice how he edits each of his quotes of me to banish the original intent of what I was saying.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

The fact that this thread has gone 8 pages, is incredible. It's also a testiment that Diesel isn't all the way wrong about this, so people have to keep coming at him with every somewhat favorable stat known to man.

Now I disagree with Diesel, when he says that Marvin hasn't improved. What I will agree with him on, is that he hasn't improved nearly enough going into his 5th year in the league.

In a lot of ways, Marvin's development mirrors the development of the Hawks. They've gotten better every year, but not really good enough to be taken serously by the contenders. The team is just decent . . just like Marvin.

I think what needs to happen to Marvin, is for him to feel like he's the 2nd best, or even the best player on the team. I'll bet $20 that Smoove definitely feels like that, which is why he's willing to take and force shots ( good or bad ).

I just don't think that Marvin has a "lead dog" mentality yet. Mabye that'll come as his game develops more. More than likely, it' ll take a major injury to Smoove or JJ, for him to be forced to have that mentality.

I know people get tired of Diesel's threads constantly criticizing Marvin. But the fact is, he's not all the way wrong about this. And I think everyone on this board knows this. But Marvin is still slowly improving year by year, so he's not all the way right either.

I just think that maybe it's time for him to see Marvin for what he is . . a good complimentary player on a rising NBA team. Don't expext "star level" play, until he plays like and has a star player mentality. If it comes, great. If it doesn't, be satisfied with what he gives us, as long as he's helping us win games.

[exodus]

In every link that you gave... It is definitely a half quote. Sometimes even in the middle of the sentence. Again, my message on Chillz was the same as it is above... For instance, your first snippet... Here's the full quote:

/quote]

:lol6:

In each case you were lauding Childress for his efficiency, the very same thing you are dismissing with Marvin. The quotes speak for themselves. You can't hide your hypocrisy. I was just focusing on the effeciency quotes because that is the subject here.

You talk about me using half quotes yet you are making claims about me WITHOUT ANY QUOTES.

Again i say :lol6: . What team would "walk away from the post" and let teams score inside? It was Childress' lack of perimeter game that allowed teams to pack in the paint against us. He sure didn't have any post game to speak of.

I got a better idea. I challenge you to show one quote where i said efficiency is meaningless.

The problem with Childress is that his scoring efficiency came at the expense of the team. He leaked out early on defense to get easy baskets. Most of the time he left the Hawks defending 4 on 5. He crashed the offensive glass every time rather than trying to get back on D, frequenly leading to easy baskets by his man. He scored less than one field goal per game on jumpers, which hurt the teams spacing in the half court sets.

We sure didn't miss Childress' " intangibles" this past season. I notice you won't touch the fact that Childress' scoring average went down from 13 ppg to 11.8 ppg in his last season. If PPG is so important why did you never mention it with Childress?

Your hypocrisy has been exposed with multiple quotes. You have yet to show one quote that would support your claim of my alleged hypocrisy.

Edited October 15, 2009 by exodus

[exodus]

The fact that this thread has gone 8 pages, is incredible. It's also a testiment that Diesel isn't all the way wrong about this, so people have to keep coming at him with every somewhat favorable stat known to man.

Now I disagree with Diesel, when he says that Marvin hasn't improved. What I will agree with him on, is that he hasn't improved nearly enough going into his 5th year in the league.

In a lot of ways, Marvin's development mirrors the development of the Hawks. They've gotten better every year, but not really good enough to be taken serously by the contenders. The team is just decent . . just like Marvin.

I think what needs to happen to Marvin, is for him to feel like he's the 2nd best, or even the best player on the team. I'll bet $20 that Smoove definitely feels like that, which is why he's willing to take and force shots ( good or bad ).

I just don't think that Marvin has a "lead dog" mentality yet. Mabye that'll come as his game develops more. More than likely, it' ll take a major injury to Smoove or JJ, for him to be forced to have that mentality.

I know people get tired of Diesel's threads constantly criticizing Marvin. But the fact is, he's not all the way wrong about this. And I think everyone on this board knows this. But Marvin is still slowly improving year by year, so he's not all the way right either.

I just think that maybe it's time for him to see Marvin for what he is . . a good complimentary player on a rising NBA team. Don't expext "star level" play, until he plays like and has a star player mentality. If it comes, great. If it doesn't, be satisfied with what he gives us, as long as he's helping us win games.

I don't think many here have any delusions about Marvin being a star. I would bet against him ever being an All-Star or even averaging 20 ppg. His lack of a pullup j off the dribble with always limit his scoring.

Marvin will always be a role player. He just doesn't have the talent to be a star. I would say his ceiling is probably 18 ppg.

If there is one thing i would like to see from Marvin this year it is more consistency in the 2nd half of the season. He seems to start well and then tail off quite a bit.

Edited October 15, 2009 by exodus

[Buzzard]

The fact that this thread has gone 8 pages, is incredible. It's also a testiment that Diesel isn't all the way wrong about this, so people have to keep coming at him with every somewhat favorable stat known to man.

You are right, I have pretty much ignored the Marvin is not worth a crap post for about two months and guess I just got bored. What I hope never happens is one season we wake up and Diesel has gotten his wish; our 8 million dollar Marvin is gone and he's been replaced with a 10 million dollar Prince clone.

Anyone who does not appreciate Marvin should go over to the Pistons board and just read about the bashing Prince gets. When he signed that contract they were expecting him to reach 16 to 18 ppg and 6 rpg. That was three years ago and he still has two years left at 10 and 11 mil. Which is pretty much what we are expecting out of Marvin for 8 mill a year.

I guess its true, the grass is always greener on the other side.

[Diesel]

You are right, I have pretty much ignored the Marvin is not worth a crap post for about two months and guess I just got bored. What I hope never happens is one season we wake up and Diesel has gotten his wish; our 8 million dollar Marvin is gone and he's been replaced with a 10 million dollar Prince clone.

Anyone who does not appreciate Marvin should go over to the Pistons board and just read about the bashing Prince gets. When he signed that contract they were expecting him to reach 16 to 18 ppg and 6 rpg. That was three years ago and he still has two years left at 10 and 11 mil. Which is pretty much what we are expecting out of Marvin for 8 mill a year.

I guess its true, the grass is always greener on the other side.

Tayshun Prince vs. Marvin? Hmmm?

I actually think that Marvin has higher worth. But Prince is probably the better player.

[gsuteke]

the over/under on Diesel having a negative 50 "reputation" rating is opening night.

It turns out that was an extremely conservative guesstimate.

[thecampster]

Tayshun Prince vs. Marvin? Hmmm?

I actually think that Marvin has higher worth. But Prince is probably the better player.

Uh...no, not close.