Marvin deserves to be flamed....

[exodus]

I used All caps on OVERALL just for you... and you still missed it.

Marvin improved his three point shooting... But his ppg, fta, and fg% went DOWN... That's a big part of the OVERALL. that I all capped for you before.

I fail to see how he didn't improve OVERALL when he set career highs in TS% (best on the team among non-centers) and rebounding, had fewer turnovers and fewer fouls. His only problem, similar to Smith, is that he got fewer touches due to Bibby and Flip taking a lot of shots. Both Smith and Marvin saw declines in their fg attempts and ft attempts due to fewer touches. Of course in Smith's case it doesn't seem to bother you.

Getting fewer touches doesn't mean a lack of improvement. The fact that you are trying to use this to say Marvin didn't improve shows how desperate you are.

Edited October 12, 2009 by exodus

[DrReality]

I bet Diesel felt like he passed a stone when Marvin got resigned.

Ha ha ha, good one.

[AHF]

I fail to see how he didn't improve OVERALL when he set career highs in TS% (best on the team among non-centers) and rebounding, had fewer turnovers and fewer fouls. His only problem, similar to Smith, is that he got fewer touches due to Bibby and Flip taking a lot of shots. Both Smith and Marvin saw declines in their fg attempts and ft attempts due to fewer touches. Of course in Smith's case it doesn't seem to bother you.

Getting fewer touches doesn't mean a lack of improvement.

This is where I am on this as well. There is a reason Marvin again raised his PER last season along with showing continued improvement on his defense. It is because he continues to improve his overall game.

[exodus]

This is where I am on this as well. There is a reason Marvin again raised his PER last season along with showing continued improvement on his defense. It is because he continues to improve his overall game.

It is comical that Diesel mentions FG% as a stike against Marvin. Apparently Diesel doesn't understand that taking more threes will automatically lower someone's FG% even if they shoot them well. Marvin's FG% went down only .4% while his TS% went up 2.9%.

[Diesel]

This is where I am on this as well. There is a reason Marvin again raised his PER last season along with showing continued improvement on his defense. It is because he continues to improve his overall game.

I have a player. He went from being a driving scorer to be a guy who sits on the baseline or on the three point line and shoots wide open shots. While he may have improved his longrange shooting which means a lot more to PER and TS% fans, he has not improved his overall game in fact, his FG% is down and his ppg has gone down too. The stats that you guys quote rewards a player for going from being Kobe Bryant to being Reggie Miller. In my eyes, that's not improving. In my eyes, Marvin became less aggressive last year and the stats rewarded him for that.

[exodus]

I have a player. He went from being a driving scorer to be a guy who sits on the baseline or on the three point line and shoots wide open shots. While he may have improved his longrange shooting which means a lot more to PER and TS% fans, he has not improved his overall game in fact, his FG% is down and his ppg has gone down too. The stats that you guys quote rewards a player for going from being Kobe Bryant to being Reggie Miller. In my eyes, that's not improving. In my eyes, Marvin became less aggressive last year and the stats rewarded him for that.

Sorry but Diesel Math bears little resemblence to the real thing. A FG% drop of 4 tenths of a percent is completely insignificant when a player takes 145 more three pointers than the previous year. The more three pointers a player takes the lower his fg% will inevitably be.

Last summer you were dogging Marvin because he didn't take threes. Now after he takes 155 threes in a season you are dogging him because he does take them. Diesel logic at it's best.

Marvin's free throws per shot attempt have been virtually identical for the last two years. Only Diesel can make the leap to say fewer touches means he isn't driving as much. Of course he refuses to make the same conclusion with Smith.

Edited October 12, 2009 by exodus

[Diesel]

Sorry but Diesel Math bears little resemblence to the real thing. A FG% drop of 4 tenths of a percent is completely insignificant when a player takes 145 more three pointers than the previous year. The more three pointers a player takes the lower his fg% will inevitably be.

Last summer you were dogging Marvin because he didn't take threes. Now after he takes 155 threes in a season you are dogging him because he does take them. Diesel logic at it's best.

Marvin's free throws per shot attempt have been virtually identical for the last two years. Only Diesel can make the leap to say fewer touches means he isn't driving as much. Of course he refuses to make the same conclusion with Smith.

You paragraphs are Insignificant to the conversation. In otherwords, a tangent.

You have failed to discuss Marvin's drop in Ppg? Surely with him shooting 145 more 3 pointers with only .4 % drop in FG%.. Marvin's ppg should raise right? I mean, 3 points are more than 2... Even in dieselmath... THIS IS TRUE..

So what about in Exodus Math? Or ExoduslackofMath?

When you put the whole puzzle together Exodus, what you have is a guy who changed from being a driving scorer of moderate aggressiveness to being a guy who sits on the perimeter and waits for somebody to hand feed him the ball when he is as OPEN as he can BE. That's not IMPROVEMENT. That is Nonaggressive Basketball.

Marvin is a Welfare Player.

He's sitting at the perimeter waiting for Joe, Bibby, or Crawford to find him wide open so he can take a shot. I'm sure his efficiency will look mighty good. He should hit most of the shots he puts up...

However, he has went from being a guy who could possible create for himself to being a guy waiting for somebody to remember him in the offensive scheme. He's on the Welfare with Mo Evans. Unfortunately, Mo doesn't make 8+ Million dollars.

[Buzzard]

You paragraphs are Insignificant to the conversation. In otherwords, a tangent.

You have failed to discuss Marvin's drop in Ppg? Surely with him shooting 145 more 3 pointers with only .4 % drop in FG%.. Marvin's ppg should raise right? I mean, 3 points are more than 2... Even in dieselmath... THIS IS TRUE..

So what about in Exodus Math? Or ExoduslackofMath?

When you put the whole puzzle together Exodus, what you have is a guy who changed from being a driving scorer of moderate aggressiveness to being a guy who sits on the perimeter and waits for somebody to hand feed him the ball when he is as OPEN as he can BE. That's not IMPROVEMENT. That is Nonaggressive Basketball.

Marvin is a Welfare Player.

He's sitting at the perimeter waiting for Joe, Bibby, or Crawford to find him wide open so he can take a shot. I'm sure his efficiency will look mighty good. He should hit most of the shots he puts up...

However, he has went from being a guy who could possible create for himself to being a guy waiting for somebody to remember him in the offensive scheme. He's on the Welfare with Mo Evans. Unfortunately, Mo doesn't make 8+ Million dollars.

What is your point? Is it we should flame him for his comments last week as your 1st post indicated or flame him for last season which you have covered in depth over the last 6 months?

Its your thread; the least you could do is stay on topic. :help wanted3:

[exodus]

You paragraphs are Insignificant to the conversation. In otherwords, a tangent.

You have failed to discuss Marvin's drop in Ppg? Surely with him shooting 145 more 3 pointers with only .4 % drop in FG%.. Marvin's ppg should raise right? I mean, 3 points are more than 2... Even in dieselmath... THIS IS TRUE..

I have already explained this over and over but given your lack of attention span i guess i have to do it again. Marvin, just like Smith, got fewer shot attempts due to Flip and Bibby taking a lot of shots. it isn't that complex.

Smith took 12.3 shot attempts this past season compared to 13.9 in the previous season. He shot his best ever percentage but his ppg went down, just like marvin's.

[AHF]

I have a player. He went from being a driving scorer to be a guy who sits on the baseline or on the three point line and shoots wide open shots. While he may have improved his longrange shooting which means a lot more to PER and TS% fans, he has not improved his overall game in fact, his FG% is down and his ppg has gone down too. The stats that you guys quote rewards a player for going from being Kobe Bryant to being Reggie Miller. In my eyes, that's not improving. In my eyes, Marvin became less aggressive last year and the stats rewarded him for that.

Marvin is the same driving scorer he was two seasons ago. His usage rate last season was 90% of what it was in 2006-07 and 2007-08 with Flip and Bibby on board. His FTA declined by roughly the same amount, which isn't a much of a surprise. The bottomline is that with Flip and Bibby added, he used fewer possessions and took fewer shots. He scored off those shots more efficiently both on the interior and exterior. He increased both offensive and defense rebounding. He improved his defense. These are all good things. He still has a ways to go to complete his development, but he has made pretty consistent progress every year of his career, including last season.

I don't get your bashing of TS% and use of FG% as meaningful here. In what possible way is FG% a more meaningful number than TS%? I don't see when it ever is. TS% measures scoring efficiency. FG% does the same thing just in a much less meaningful way. This is like claiming batting average is more meaningful than OPS in baseball.

Moreover, how does PER reward a player going from Kobe Bryant to Reggie Miller? Miller's career PER is 18.4 and Bryant's is 23.6. The last 10 seasons of Kobe's career have all been higher than Reggie's career high PER. It is a no brainer that being a Kobe Bryant is a good thing for PER. High usage rates and high volume scoring is good for PER. I don't get this.

[RedDawg#8]

Diesel, you remind so much of Skip Bayless, or Terrance Moore in that when it comes to Marvin, it seems you enjoy stirring up controversy more than actually making a factual case without being hypocritical. Over the entire off-season every angle you have used to dis-credit Marvin and those who support him have been thwarted with facts. Nobody on here is saying he is a world-beater, but that seems to be what you think he should be and what you think he has to be. If you can seriously just let go of his draft night expectations, and then focus in on our team we have and how all the parts fit together as a whole, it may make excepting Marvin and his role a little easier.

Nobody is saying Marv cant, wont, or shouldnt do better, but to single him out over and over as if he is the only player in a Hawks uniform that isnt playing to his potential is getting tired and quite funny imo. Each of our players are deficient in some way. Bibby literally cant defend or drive the ball, he sits on the outside way more than Marv does. Joe gets to the free throw line less frequently than Marv, Smoove's stats dropped across the board last season despite getting his raise (which happens to be higher than Marv's) and he is overall just less effecient than Marv, has a lower bball IQ, and is just immmature. Horford hasnt improved his post game or added any weight or muscle since he got here and he was a #3 pick who has been a starter from the jump, at least Marv earned his way into the starting lineup.

All this in mind and what's your biggest argument against Marv??? He isnt aggresive enough. THATS IT! he has a very complete package but you just have to harp on that one aspect.

This is the thing, Smoove may NEVER become a good jumpshooter or control his emotions on the court, and when he gets older and loses his athleticism, he wont be able to last in the NBA. Horford may NEVER become a dominate C for us because he is out of position, Bibby WONT get his young legs back and be able to drive like his early years,.

BUT!

Marv will continue to have an all-around game and those skills will only get better and more refined and when he is actually needed to be the aggressor, he still has the potential to do so. His deficiency is not skill-related, or physically dependent, its only mental and once the light-bulb goes off, he has all the tools to live up to his billing from draft night. until then, he is still accepted and respected by most Hawks fans. I appreciate what he brings to this team, nobody on this team can duplicate everything he does. He is a great blend of athleticism, actual skill and smarts.

C'mon Diesel, Jackie Moon said it best:

"E-L-E....Everybody Love Everrybody"

Diesel love Marvin, i know its in you man

[Buzzard]

Marvin is a Welfare Player.

He's sitting at the perimeter waiting for Joe, Bibby, or Crawford to find him wide open so he can take a shot. I'm sure his efficiency will look mighty good. He should hit most of the shots he puts up...

However, he has went from being a guy who could possible create for himself to being a guy waiting for somebody to remember him in the offensive scheme. He's on the Welfare with Mo Evans. Unfortunately, Mo doesn't make 8+ Million dollars.

I wonder which welfare player you would choose:

Marvin Williams: Age 24 Estimated Salary next two seasons 2010 8,000,000, 2011 8,000,000

Career Avgs Min 31.7 FG% 0.450 3pt % 0.304 FT% 0.801 OFF REBS 1.5 DEF REBS 4.0 TOT REBS 5.5 AST 1.4 STLS 0.8 BLKS 0.4 TO 1.43 PF 2.70 PPG 12.5

Tashaun Prince Age 27 Salary courtesy of Hopshype (link provided below) next two seasons: 2010 10,324,380, 2011 11,148,760

Career Avgs: Min 33.4 FG% 0.461 3PT% 0.370 FT% 0.775 OFF REBS 1.3 DEF REBS 3.4 TOT REBS 4.7 AST 2.6 STLS 0.6 BLKS 0.6 TO 1.23 PF 1.40 PPG 12.6

Furthermore, Marvins seasonal career best are better than Princes' in FG%, FT%, PPG, REBS, and STLS. And after only his 1st year of seriously working on his 3pt shot, he averaged .355 which is only .015 lower than Princes career avg.

We have a talented bargain here and all you want to do is bench him and bash him. Marvins' production and contract is not only great for us as a team by giving us flexibility with our cap should we decide to go after a top tier player; his contract is also attractive for other GMs in possible future trades. I would bet the bank Dumars' would trade us straight up Prince for Marvin in a heartbeat; and Piston fans would be ecstatic.

You complain about Marvins' production when all he does is better Prince in several significat categories, despite getting less minutes than Prince every season he has been in the league. Here is something for you to what if about, I wonder where these numbers will be three years from now when Marvin is 27 like Prince? Now that is something to look forward to!

There is nothing you can say that should ever convince anyone that Marvin is a bad player whose talent, work ethic, and dedication deserves to be flamed; and you should really stop trying. Prince is a fine player and if we did not have Marvin already, I would have no problem with Prince being our SF. We all watch the games and we can all read a box score. Just stop arguing with the facts; insight, speculation, and what ifs cannot hold a candle to the facts.

Salary info: http://hoopshype.com/salaries/detroit.htm

Edited October 12, 2009 by Buzzard

[Diesel]

I don't get your bashing of TS% and use of FG% as meaningful here. In what possible way is FG% a more meaningful number than TS%? I don't see when it ever is. TS% measures scoring efficiency. FG% does the same thing just in a much less meaningful way. This is like claiming batting average is more meaningful than OPS in baseball.

What I'm saying about TS% is that it's not a measure to be used to show improvement simply because of it's bais. Again. Improvement is what we were talking about. how does TS% show anything about improvement. For instance:

Zaza's TS% went from .515 in 2007-2008 to .571 in 2008-2009.

The only thing that happened to Zaza is that his FT% increase by about 6%. His PPG went up by 1 point, but his TS% was as dramatic as his FT%. For our team, his improvement was not so evident based on what we gathered from him on the court so why are we trying to use TS% to justify improvement. It's like you go out and you find the first thing that increased and placed it in the discussion to justfity improvement. That's not really a show of OVERALL improvement.

[Peoriabird]

The only thing that happened to Zaza is that his FT% increase by about 6%. His PPG went up by 1 point, but his TS% was as dramatic as his FT%. For our team, his improvement was not so evident based on what we gathered from him on the court so why are we trying to use TS% to justify improvement. It's like you go out and you find the first thing that increased and placed it in the discussion to justfity improvement. That's not really a show of OVERALL improvement.

Sorry mods but I'm going to have to use the moron word on this one. 1st of all, it was Zaza's field goal percentage that increased by 6 percentage points not his free throw percentage! Big difference. He went from shooting 43% in 07-08 to 49% in 08-09. If you don't think that is significant, you truly don't know basketball. Secondly, Zaza improved both his scoring by 16% and his rebounding by 30% and your assessment is that this is not significant either? I said to myself that I wouldn't be sucked into this thread but you are getting outright ridiculous. Enjoy your morning Haterade and have a nice day.

[exodus]

What I'm saying about TS% is that it's not a measure to be used to show improvement simply because of it's bais. Again. Improvement is what we were talking about. how does TS% show anything about improvement. For instance:

Zaza's TS% went from .515 in 2007-2008 to .571 in 2008-2009.

The only thing that happened to Zaza is that his FT% increase by about 6%. His PPG went up by 1 point, but his TS% was as dramatic as his FT%. For our team, his improvement was not so evident based on what we gathered from him on the court so why are we trying to use TS% to justify improvement. It's like you go out and you find the first thing that increased and placed it in the discussion to justfity improvement. That's not really a show of OVERALL improvement.

:laughing5:

[MaceCase]

:doh:

[jerrywest]

:laughing5:

There is nothing Diesel says that's new, and there is nothing I can say to Diesel that's not redundant.

Therefore, I'll only answer Diesel with Smileys forever.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/shake_puter.gifhttp://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/beathorse.gif

[AHF]

What I'm saying about TS% is that it's not a measure to be used to show improvement simply because of it's bais. Again. Improvement is what we were talking about. how does TS% show anything about improvement. For instance:

Zaza's TS% went from .515 in 2007-2008 to .571 in 2008-2009.

The only thing that happened to Zaza is that his FT% increase by about 6%. His PPG went up by 1 point, but his TS% was as dramatic as his FT%. For our team, his improvement was not so evident based on what we gathered from him on the court so why are we trying to use TS% to justify improvement. It's like you go out and you find the first thing that increased and placed it in the discussion to justfity improvement. That's not really a show of OVERALL improvement.

Zaza went from shooting .437 FG% and .706 FT% in 2007-08 to shooting .497 FG% and .709 FT in 2008-09.

When his TS% increases significantly that isn't "BIAS". That is math. Zaza scored MUCH more efficiently in 2008-09 than in 2007-08. Not only did his shooting go up, but he drew more fouls per FGA than in 2007-08.

TS% does exactly what it is supposed to do in this scenario. It reflects that Zaza took better shots and made more of them. Zaza DID improve his overall scoring efficiency and he improved it significantly.

How is TS% reflecting this a bad thing?

[DrReality]

There is nothing Diesel says that's new, and there is nothing I can say to Diesel that's not redundant.

Therefore, I'll only answer Diesel with Smileys forever.

http://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/shake_puter.gifhttp://www.hawksquawk.net/community/public/style_emoticons/default/beathorse.gif

Agree with this totally. Thinking the thread needs to be closed?

[Diesel]

Zaza went from shooting .437 FG% and .706 FT% in 2007-08 to shooting .497 FG% and .709 FT in 2008-09.

When his TS% increases significantly that isn't "BIAS". That is math. Zaza scored MUCH more efficiently in 2008-09 than in 2007-08. Not only did his shooting go up, but he drew more fouls per FGA than in 2007-08.

TS% does exactly what it is supposed to do in this scenario. It reflects that Zaza took better shots and made more of them. Zaza DID improve his overall scoring efficiency and he improved it significantly.

How is TS% reflecting this a bad thing?

Again. PPG wise though, that only accounted for 1 ppg. ONLY 1 ppg. Marvin's PPG dropped. And you guys sit here and talk as if that's an overall improvement. That's not an overall improvement. That's a specific improvement that really had very little effect on us as a team. The bias comes because the TS% gives weight to FT% and in most of these cases, it diminishes the only thing that helps determine wins and losses... PPG.

I'll say it again. You can have your guy who scores 14 ppg and shoots 95% from the FT and 48.5% from the field. I'll take the guy who gets 25 ppg and shoots 46% from the field and 82% from the FT line. And then when we play,let's see who does more toward his team winning. Because at the end of the day, His TS% is not going to mean diddly.

So in other words, you take Marvin and I'll take Carmello and at the end of the day, let's see who wins more games.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Diesel