And don't any of you DARE BLAME WOODY !

[TheNorthCydeRises]

If your theme is that we lost a) because we got outworked and b) because what we were doing in the 1st quarter wasn't still working in the 3rd quarter then I have a hard time with your conclusion that Woody doesn't deserve some blame.

My theme is . . everytime we lose a game, the fan base loves to point the finger at Woody as the reason why we lost the game. So this thread was an attempt to dispell that Woody had nothing to do with what led to us losing last night.

The Hawks were right where we wanted to be, despite Smoove and Marvin being thoroughly outplayed most of the game. Then the 5 minute meltdown happened, and the game was over.

a) we did get outworked . . that's obvious. JJ was leading us in rebounding for most of the game.

b) we had shaved 2 points off of the Laker lead in the first 5 minutes of the game. Keep in mind that the Hawks were down 74 - 70 with 6:43 to play in the quarter. So it's not like we were clueless to start the 3rd quarter.

But when the frontline started to get banged around a little, and we started to miss shots, the team melted down and the Lakers pushed the lead to 10 or 12. Woody counters this by inserting Crawford and then Zaza into the game ( taking out Marvin and then Smoove ), and the situation got even worse. Crawford especially played like garbage during that stretch.

I just want the fan base to just one time . . ONE TIME . . solely blame the players for a loss that they had everything to do with. People are searching through garbage cans to find some sort of fault with Woody, when they know dang well why that game got out of hand.

[macdaddy]

To me the bottom line on Woody has been and will continue to be that if the team isn't listening to him then he needs to be replaced. We aren't firing the players. It's not fair at all but that's the job.

Its one game though. I think they will come together.

[Buzzard]

You know damn well nobody would complain about Joe playing 40+ minutes if he willed us to a victory against a team like the Lakers. Woodson gets criticized more than he gets praised because his bad decisions over a season always outweigh his great decision, but he still gets plenty of credit on here when he does something smart. Unfortunately those moments are few and far between.

I am not sold on Woody; especially from a defensive standpoint. JJ was 1 of 8 in the 2nd half; Kobe shot almost 50% while scoring 41, and our whole front line was man handled by Odom 14 boards and Bynum 21 pts. JJ was right in saying we as a team did not play well enough. Thats not completely Woodsons fault. Just a good 1st half and a bad 2nd half against a great team; that is a recipe for a loss every time.

Its one game, one loss, and hopefully we rebound against Portland; which is what good teams do after a loss and exactly what the Lakers did aganst us.

Edited November 2, 2009 by Buzzard

[High5]

I don't mean to imply that you personally would or wouldn't complain, but I'm talking about the board in general.

I'm all about riding a hot streak and like I said I didn't see the game last night but if he was taken out after 8 minutes like I think I read then I can understand it as you'd want to keep him as rested as possible to help win it in the 4th quarter, especially if Kobe had been taken out as well (which may or may not have been the case).

Nope, Kobe finished the quarter. Joe has played an entire quarter many times before and he's never been that hot from the field. I'm all for reducing Joe's minutes (I've said it many, many times in the past), but you have to take it game-by-game. Some nights he's going to have to play 40+ minutes, some nights he might not even need to play 30. It's taking advantage of those opportunities when he doesn't need to play.

[bonethugz]

funny somebody took a shot once again at billy knight. :beathorse:

i don't remember anyone here talks about player development.

a gm drafted a player. the player has the most responsibility for his own development but so it's the coaching staff. you guys always assume drafting chris paul and chris paul would become the all star chris paul we're seeing. no i truly believe he wouldn't. maybe just a good player. of course nobody can prove that. if the jazz drafted acie law, would he be as good as deron williams? no, but i'm sure he would be better than the player he is today. the jazz developed a lot of good point guards. from john stockton to deron williams(great player/starter) to john crotty to howard eisley to mo williams(solid player)

back to the topic, i won't blame wood head for last night's blown out. we were down by 20 at the start of the fourth. i only blame him for the years, minus first year, from player development to the way we play and the win/loss record.

[buckeye242424]

Upset me? Nah ... but I don't get on here too much within the 1st day after a loss.

Well let me ask you this then, why is a win over Kobe and the Lakers a good enough reason for Joe to play 40 minutes but a win over a division rival on opening night isn't one? They both count as 1 win and really the division/conference win is more important than a road win over a non-conference team.

It's true! I'm reading Squawkers that are debating on paying to watch them after a 2-1 start! Losing to the Champs on the 1st of November?

[buckeye242424]

To me the bottom line on Woody has been and will continue to be that if the team isn't listening to him then he needs to be replaced. We aren't firing the players. It's not fair at all but that's the job.

Its one game though. I think they will come together.

This is the bottom line. Why they are not listening to him is the question. Any coach in the NBA that has had this long of tenure, coupled with the improvement of the team would have received an extension. Woody didn't. There's a reason he didn't. I'm not sitting here posting that the lost to the Lakers was Woody's fault, but his track record from what I see is consistent. Something is wrong with his relationship with the players, his ability to lead a team, or his basketball knowledge. At the highest level, a coach needs all three. He doesn't have it.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

This is the bottom line. Why they are not listening to him is the question. Any coach in the NBA that has had this long of tenure, coupled with the improvement of the team would have received an extension. Woody didn't. There's a reason he didn't. I'm not sitting here posting that the lost to the Lakers was Woody's fault, but his track record from what I see is consistent. Something is wrong with his relationship with the players, his ability to lead a team, or his basketball knowledge. At the highest level, a coach needs all three. He doesn't have it.

OK . . so name the players that didn't listen to Woody last night. Or better yet, which players do you think don't listen to Woody. And please don't say all of them, because you know that's not the case.

And when you come up with the names of those player(s), decide if it MIGHT be the player(s) that is the REAL problem.

Matter of fact, this goes out to everyone. Name the player(s) that you feel don't listen to Woody, and see if the fault with that lies more on the player(s) or on the coach.

And be TRUTHFUL about your answers.

I won't say who I think. I want some of you guys to say it.

[AHF]

(1) Either Josh Smith is told to shoot from the perimeter or Josh doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(2) Either Horford is told not to drive the ball or he doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(3) Either Marvin is told not to initiate offense like he has done several times with JJ out or he doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(4) Either our team is told not to set screens as a core part of our offense or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

(5) Either our team is told not to move off the ball and make aggressive cuts or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

(6) Either our team is told not to run the pick and roll as a core play in our offense or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

etc.

There are a lot of issues where the right things are not being taught or the direction from the coaching staff isn't getting through to the players (i.e., they aren't listening), IMO.

I don't think Woodson's biggest problem is dealing with the players, though. I think it is more about x's and o's.

[buckeye242424]

OK . . so name the players that didn't listen to Woody last night. Or better yet, which players do you think don't listen to Woody. And please don't say all of them, because you know that's not the case.

And when you come up with the names of those player(s), decide if it MIGHT be the player(s) that is the REAL problem.

Matter of fact, this goes out to everyone. Name the player(s) that you feel don't listen to Woody, and see if the fault with that lies more on the player(s) or on the coach.

And be TRUTHFUL about your answers.

I won't say who I think. I want some of you guys to say it.

I'm not basing my opinion solely on last night. I'm sure the whole team was frustrated and gave up on the original gameplan vs. LA. To answer your question, I don't believe Smoove listens to Woody (for sure), He's our starting PF. I don't think Mike Bibby, our starting PG, the leader, listens to him either. He may run his pathetic sets, but he doesn't agree with the offense. JJ isn't going to b*tch because the ball in his hands in 75% of the time. Everyone else is happy because because they're getting paid while playing on a playoff team. The Hawks are good. Strictly off talent.

[Diesel]

I got one blame for Woody.

You don't take out a hot hand until they are either tired and no longer hot. First Quarter, Joe was white hot. Woody sat him for most of the 2nd quarter. When Joe came back in, he was cold. That's bad coaching. Ask anybody... You ride a hot hand.

One problem I have always had with Woody is his "timed" rotations. He ignores everything that's going on on the floor because of his set rotation. That's stupid.

[Buzzard]

I got one blame for Woody.

You don't take out a hot hand until they are either tired and no longer hot. First Quarter, Joe was white hot. Woody sat him for most of the 2nd quarter. When Joe came back in, he was cold. That's bad coaching. Ask anybody... You ride a hot hand.

One problem I have always had with Woody is his "timed" rotations. He ignores everything that's going on on the floor because of his set rotation. That's stupid.

Thats not my only problem with Woody but it is one I have. JJ and Crawford are the types of scorers that can light it up for 40. You still rest them when they are hot; but not for large junks of time just because of some dumb *ss rotation rule. All games are fluid and that is how he should coach.

Edited November 3, 2009 by Buzzard

[TheNorthCydeRises]

So you say we shouldn't do it because...its useless? Forget about practice, if you can't dunk a basketball just don't try. Working out? Nope, if you can't do it now then no use working out to do it later. Northcyde says its pointless so everyone just give up, no use practicing.

If you get down by 20, yeah probably not worth practicing because the Lakers won't even attempt to simulate the kind of defense you will see when trying to come back. But being down 10 with 50 seconds left isn't impossible and the Lakers would continue to play defense. There was T-Mac scoring 13 points in 35 seconds a few years back against the Spurs. I guess Northcyde would have said its pointless, don't try it. Fouling would just make the Spurs beat the Rockets by more, and who wants more humiliation?

And its pretty funny that you are saying that the Hawks shouldn't have been playing hard. Northcyde with the loser mentality of just give up, don't play hard. Roll over and die when you think you might not have a chance. Great way to have a team concept, don't practice and don't play hard. I have a hard time swallowing a loser mentality for this game. Why would you NOT try to simulate end of the game situations? You get more practice, you show you are a team of Men and not little sissies who give up. I don't have a problem with losing, but I do have a problem with not trying. Your shots might not be falling, but there is no reason you shouldn't give maximal effort because you can always control the amount of effort you give.

Let me answer that last paragraph first, before I break down what I have bolded.

The main reason you don't try to win a game in which you're down 10 with 50 seconds left, and they have the ball, is because of possible INJURIES. While it is unlikely that someone will get hurt while playing hard in that final minute, it's even MORE UNLIKELY that you'll win a game during that timespan with that much ground to make up.

In those miracle comebacks, you usually need 3 things to happen:

1) the losing team needs to get red hot from 3-point range

2) the losing team needs to force turnovers, and score off of those turnovers

3) the winning team has to completely panic ( or choke ), whether it be with ball handling or by missing free throws or by wide open missed shots or lay-ups

God forbid that someone like JJ or Smoove turns an ankle or suffers some sort of freak injury, while trying to erase a 10 point decifit with under a minute to go. The media and the fans would make Woody walk the plank and into an ocean full of sharks right then and there. This board would be in a state of PURE RAGE if that happened. Hawk Armageddon would come at the 3rd game of the season.

Even I couldn't defend Woody if that happened, because he shouldn't have had them doing that ish in the first place . . down 10 . . with less than a minute to go. Maybe in a playoff elimination game you have them doing that. But not in the 3rd game of the regular season, in a game that is all but lost anyway.

The NBA season is way too long as to act like every loss is going to put you out of playoff contention. The Hawks will definitely have a few games in which we're only down 5 - 7 points with less than a minute, to "practice" this strategy. At least with that point spread, you're only 2 threes away from putting yourself in contention to win the game.

So if the Hawks were showing no signs of seriously putting themselves in position to win the game . . . then yes, shut it down, and fight another day.

Bringing up NBA miracles like Miller's comeback against the Knicks and T-Mac's explosion aganst the Spurs, are merely that . . . .MIRACLES. 99% of games like the one we played in last night, end in a loss. So take the loss and move on.

And actually, since people are sooooooo concerned about JJ's and the starter's minutes, being down 10 with under a minute to go, definitely falls under the category of "wasted minutes in which they could be resting, instead of playing and exerting unnexessary energy."

Now . . it's interesting that you bring up that Houston game. T-Mac's performance was incredible. But the Rockets were in a totally different situation than we were in.

- although Houston was playing like pure crap, so were the Spurs. The score of that game was 60 - 60 early in the 4th quarter.

- Spurs had pushed their lead to 11 points, and were leading by 9 with under 2 minutes to go

- Rockets had only scored like 8 points in the quarter at that point.

So let's pick up the action from here.

*** With the Rockets being down 9, the "great Hawk legend" Bobby Sura, misses a three with 1:22 to go. Spurs get the rebound, and Duncan is fouled with 1:01 to go. Spurs lead . . 74 - 64.

(( Let's stop here for a minute, because already, they're in a totally different situation than we were in last night. Because altough both the Hawks last night, and the Rockets here, are down by 10, Houston has the ball with a chance to cut it to 7 or 8, while our only chance to cut it to 7 or 8, is to force a turnover and score. If not, the Lakers can run the lead to 12 with 2 FTs. If not, they're still up 10, with even less time on the clock. ))

*** T-Mac races down the court and misses a lay-up, but Yao put is back in the hole to cut the Spurs lead to 8 with 52 seconds to go. Then the first major element of the comeback happens. Scott Padgett steals the inbounds pass, and dunks it, cutting the Spur lead to 6 . . . with 47 seconds to go.

(( NOTE: This is the point in which the Rockets started to foul. With them only being down 6 with 47 seconds to go, they have the option to either try to get a stop, or extend the game by fouling. They go the foul route . . but only if they couldn't get a steal first. ))

**** Devin Brown is fouled, and makes 2 FTs, to make the score 76 -68 Spurs. A score by the rockets still makes it a 2-possession game. So when T-Mac hit's that first three to cut it to 76 - 71 with 35 seconds left, they still have a shot if they can get a steal or just one miss FT. But they get neither, and have to foul Brown again. Once agan, he makes 2 FTs and push the Spur lead to 78 - 71 with 31 seconds left.

**** Then the 2nd big play of the comeback happens. T-Mac hits another three, and is FOULED ON THE SHOT BY DUNCAN ( questionable foul, but they called it nonetheless ). After T-Mac hits the FT, you'ew now talking about a one possession game. Score: 78 - 75 Spurs . . with 24 seconds to go.

*** Rockets play for the steal again, but don't get it. They end up fouling Duncan, a pretty good person to foul. He makes his 2 FTs though, and push the Rocket lead back to 5 . . 80 - 75. 16 seconds to go. T-Mac get the ball again, and hits ANOTHER 3 with 11 seconds left, to cut the lead to 80 - 78.

*** Then the final part of the T-Mac miracle happens. Poor Devin Brown has the ball stolen by the one person you don't want to have the ball . . T-Mac. But instead of settling to tie the game, he pulls up for his 4th consecutive three, and knocks the dang shot down with less than 2 seconds left to give the Rockets an 81 - 80 lead. Tony Parker misses his three, and the Rockets win.

So let's review:

- Rockets erased a 10 point lead, but had to score 17 points in the final 1:01 to win

- T-Mac scores 13 points in 35 seconds.

- Although the Spurs went 6 - 6 from the FT line during this span, the 2 turnovers in which the Rockets got 5 points off of, and the Duncan foul on T-Mac's 3rd three pointer, turned out to be the difference in the game.

LOL . . nah man. The Hawks did right last night. Just play defense, but don't foul. Take your loss, and hope to regroup in Portland. Just because miracles DO happen, doesn't mean they happen often enough to expect them to happen. We can practice your "miracle" scenario in a game in which we actually have a slim shot to make it interesting.

If we beat Portland and Sacramento, we're 4 - 1. I think everybody would take that.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Now we're back on the timed substitutions issue. Like no other coach does this . . including Phil Jackson. This board is hilarious.

One minute, people complain about JJ playing too many minutes. The next minute, people complain about JJ being out of a game too long. They want Woody to trust the bench one minute, then keep JJ in a game until he can't press the circle button no more the next.

Fact is, it wouldn't have mattered when Woody took JJ out, because people still would have something negative to say about it. Even if he hit 3 more shots to end the quarter with 24 points on 10 - 11 shooting, the Lakers were still matching us point for point.

It's funny though. People have been talking mess about JJ ever since he turned down the extension, even wanting his minutes reduced for a guy who has NEVER come even close to appearing in a playoff game. Now, it's play JJ for how long, as long as we win?

The fact that JJ got a straight 8 minutes rest in a game vs the Lakers, is actually incredible. It just shows how well some of those guys were playing in the first half. It would've enabled Woody to once again play him the entire 4th quarter, fairly energized. Instead, the team melted down, and we never got a chance to see how a rested JJ could fare in the 4th with the game on the line.

JJ didn't go cold because he sat out too long. He went cold because the Lakers stopped trying to play him straight up one on one. Artest couldn't do anything to stop JJ last night. But when they started to double team him and make him take tougher shots, that's when he went cold.

But in true JJ fashion, it was also at that point in which he started looking for his open teammates. Bibby responded by making shots. The others missed shots or turned the ball over.

And once again, I believe we were STILL LOSING when JJ went out the game, despite the hot hand. And Crawford came right in, and actually played well in that 2nd quarter, along with Joe Smith. It's like I said in an earier post. JJ's "rest" had nothing to do with the 3rd quarter meltdown, because we were still right in the game at the 7 minute mark, despite JJ's jumper not falling.

This is why I said that even if we had a Dwyane Wade on the squad instead of JJ, this team would STILL have these same issues on the frontline. Just keep this in mind everytime we play a powerful frontline. When JJ is the team leader in rebounds for most of the night, something is going HORRIBLY WRONG somewhere. Because rebounding is more about desire and positioning, than anything else.

[niremetal]

One minute, people complain about JJ playing too many minutes. The next minute, people complain about JJ being out of a game too long. They want Woody to trust the bench one minute, then keep JJ in a game until he can't press the circle button no more the next.

This really is not that complicated. I'll just quote Sekou:

It didn’t help that the Hawks’ momentum early was halted by a head-scratching substitution. Joe Johnson was on a tear in the first few minutes of the game, piling up 18 points on 7-for-8 shooting, when Woodson inexplicably pulled him from the game with 2:39 to play in the quarter. For all the times we’ve moaned and groaned around here about JJ playing too many minutes, this was not the time to interrupt his flow. The playing rotation be darned, let the man shoot until he missed five straight. He stays on the floor until he misses, right?

Not this time.

Lakers star defender Ron Artest deserves a lot of credit for holding Johnson to just one field goal the rest of the way (Kobe Bryant certainly had no luck slowing Johnson down), but in hindsight, that quick and unexpected hook from Woodson seems even more perplexing after the fact.

Why is it so hard to understand that the general point is that Woody doesn't know how and when to use his bench, and not simply that he needs to play the bench more minutes? You can't seriously think that the main complaints about Woody's use of the bench were JUST the sheer number of minutes each player played, do you?

Edited November 3, 2009 by niremetal

[TheNorthCydeRises]

(1) Either Josh Smith is told to shoot from the perimeter or Josh doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(2) Either Horford is told not to drive the ball or he doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(3) Either Marvin is told not to initiate offense like he has done several times with JJ out or he doesn't listen to Woodson about that.

(4) Either our team is told not to set screens as a core part of our offense or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

(5) Either our team is told not to move off the ball and make aggressive cuts or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

(6) Either our team is told not to run the pick and roll as a core play in our offense or they don't listen to Woodson about that.

etc.

There are a lot of issues where the right things are not being taught or the direction from the coaching staff isn't getting through to the players (i.e., they aren't listening), IMO.

I don't think Woodson's biggest problem is dealing with the players, though. I think it is more about x's and o's.

Good post. But you forgot one major element when talking about the players.

1) Josh Smith - Or . . because he is too "soft". He usually reverts back to the jumper when he knows he can't beat his man off the dribble. But more important, he purposely shys away from contact . . on both offense and defense. Instead of just getting the ball and going directly to the hole, he's trying to finesse his way to the basket with crossover and behind the back dribbles in the lane. That's why he gets the "soft" label. And this is what is preventing him from being a true star player in the league.

2) Horford - Or . .maybe he hasn't quite figured out how to best score against big centers, other than his jumper. The jumper is the strength of his offensive game. But like Josh, sometimes he just needs to go straight up and look for contact, so that he can get to the FT line.

3) Marvin - Or . . because he hasn't developed the pull up jumper off the dribble. His drives to the hole are better, but still clumsy. And we all know he's a decent spot-up shooter. But the pull-up jumper is needed for him to really initiate the offense . . unless we play him at PF. The big games he had last year while JJ was out, all came when he played Pf, and could draw fouls against them

4) I don't think the screen game isn't a major part of the offense, altough they did set more screens last night than I've seen in a while. The pull up 3 that JJ shot while Horford screened his man, was beautiful. And they did run some screen and roll in the Wizards game while Crawford was running the point. So maybe Woody will incorporate the screen game more into the offense.

5) I think some do it. Bibby and Marvin don't do it. JJ does it often. Smoove does it sometimes, but not often enough.

6) Well, we didn't have the guards to effectively run pick and roll until this year. Crawford and Teague are the type of quick guards you want running pick and rolls.

Those are al fair points to make about the players and the coach. Like with everything, it's probably a combination of all of that. Scheme and execution are usually looked at as coaching or personnel issues. Basketball smarts and toughness are individual player issues that a coach can't usually correct.

[gsuteke]

I think our "Bigs" were scared to go in the paint due to their height advantage. That's how it looked to me atleast.

That would explain alot of this back and forth we're seeing here about whether it's a coaching or a player issue last night.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

I think our "Bigs" were scared to go in the paint due to their height advantage. That's how it looked to me atleast.

That would explain alot of this back and forth we're seeing here about whether it's a coaching or a player issue last night.

Teke, that's exactly what it is. It's so obvious what it is.

When this happens again, I wonder if some of the AJC sportswriters will have the guts to actually write about this subject.

This entire team should be forced to listen to that ATL rap classic . . . Never Scared - by Bonecrusher.

[High5]

I think our "Bigs" were scared to go in the paint due to their height advantage. That's how it looked to me atleast.

That would explain alot of this back and forth we're seeing here about whether it's a coaching or a player issue last night.

It's not whether it's a coaching or a player issue, IT'S BOTH.

[AHF]

That would explain alot of this back and forth we're seeing here about whether it's a coaching or a player issue last night.

Just for clarification, my comments were big picture - not necessarily related to the game against the Lakers. They are systemic problems I see with our play that have not been remedied in the 2 - 5 years they have been issues.