This relates to Hawks: Magic now cited as Carmelo's favorite team

[Sothron]

The latest Carmelo Anthony rumor, from CBSSports.com, is that "the Magic are believed to be at the top of his list along with the Knicks."

The Knicks are said to have offered Danilo Gallinari, Eddy Curry (who has a huge expiring contract), and a future first-round pick. Any deal would first require Melo to sign the three-year maximum extension Denver has offered, but the process might be slowed by the fact that the Nuggets don't have a GM right now (former Suns executive David Griffin is the favorite). Stay tuned

Unreal. If the Magic manage to get Carmelo and get him to sign that three year extension in the process what in the world can the Hawks REALISTICALLY do to counter this? Let's be honest here: the Heat already have the NBA's best team and the Magic are an elite team as well in our own division. Now you possibly add Carmelo freakin' Anthony to Orlando? :cant believe:

[HawkItus]

Suit up and play. :kickcan:

Edited August 17, 2010 by sultanofatl

[JTB]

Suit up and play. :kickcan:

exactly!......strap them damn boots up and get to work!, one thing about the hawks is that they have to be tough at all times and not in a B.I.T.C.H mode.

[Chickenstanley]

Unreal. If the Magic manage to get Carmelo and get him to sign that three year extension in the process what in the world can the Hawks REALISTICALLY do to counter this? Let's be honest here: the Heat already have the NBA's best team and the Magic are an elite team as well in our own division. Now you possibly add Carmelo freakin' Anthony to Orlando? :cant believe:

[Ruckus]

The heat are going to be ridiculous. Do you even watch basketball "CS"?? I get your point but come on dude....

[tremor]

Melo to Magic is scary. Why? Because he fixes their biggest weakness - lack of player that can take the game over offensively and create for himself. Carter failed to fill this void.

Moving to OT about Cavs. Let's compare player by player Miami Heat and top 8 NBA team which is Atlanta Hawks (with pro Hawks bias).

C Ilgauskas << Horford

PF Bosh = Smith

SF James >>>>>>>... Williams

SG Wade >>> JJ

PG Chalmers = Bibby

Their starting 5 is clearly better than ours despite lack of very good C (big Z will be saved for PO and won't play more than 20 mpg) and PG. The only flow in this line up is not so good interior D.

Bench:

C/PF Haslem, Anthony, Howard, Magloire >> Pachulia, Powell, Collins

SF, SG, G, PG Miller, Jones, House, Arroyo = Crawford Sr., Evans, Crawford Jr., Teague

Let's be honest here - on paper Heat are not even in the same league.

Heat's biggest issue is lack of quality C which makes match up against Magic interesting. I believe that currently Wade is a counterbalance for that so James gives Heat the age in such comparison. If Orlando gets Anthony things will get more interesting.

[Plainview1981]

It's laughable that some would suggest this team has a chance at all. Yeah, they might hold on to 4th seed if they're lucky with injuries again... But Miami has Wade, Lebron and Bosh and the Hawks have Joe, Josh and Horford. It's not even a fair comparison. And you could argue this team is no better at PG than Miami is. I mean, as bad as Bibby was last season... How bad wil he be this year? Teague who's best performance came in a meaningless game and the summer league. Nothing proven as of yet. A new offense can't solve all of this teams problems. When going up against Miami and Orlando the lack of PG, center and star power will still be huge factors.

[Sothron]

Please explain to this forum the exact reasons for your position that "The Heat already have the NBA's best team".

I mean, they have never even played an NBA game with their projected unit!

I'm not saying that I know the future ( unlike many people on this forum who do this to the point of being quite tiresome) --- I'm just asking you to explain to us how you can make such a (seemingly baseless) claim about this Miami team.

It's quite difficult to take a post seriously when the poster presents completely baseless speculations as facts, which then requires the reader to agree are indeed facts throughout the rest of post --- in order get any value out of it.

CS

Ok whose joke account is this? Seriously? You think I'm offering baseless speculation and claims about how good a Miami team is that has TWO of the TOP FIVE players in the league and their third best player is a top ten-top fifteen player to boot? :cant believe: I guess all the NBA experts, coaches, players and league execs who expect the Heat to not only win several titles but also challenge to break single season team win records is "baseless" too? :laughing5:

[Diesel]

exactly!......strap them damn boots up and get to work!, one thing about the hawks is that they have to be tough at all times and not in a B.I.T.C.H mode.

It's the same thing that happened when we played Boston in the playoffs. Boston was a juggernaut. They had the big three (all playing on an allstar level) and we had Joe and a bunch of young players and a washed up Bibby. They had Doc Rivers, we had Woody. They had some of the best fans in the world, we had an empty arena. They were the best team in basketball, we were the worst team in the playoffs.

BUT.

We strapped the damn boots up and went to work. We didn't win, but we forced a game 7 and earned the respect of the league. We can beat anybody. I think we're more talented now. Actually, all in all, I think we have our own big three maybe 4. I will be looking forward to seeing how we blast teams out of the water under different coaching.

[Diesel]

Melo to Magic is scary. Why? Because he fixes their biggest weakness - lack of player that can take the game over offensively and create for himself. Carter failed to fill this void.

Moving to OT about Cavs. Let's compare player by player Miami Heat and top 8 NBA team which is Atlanta Hawks (with pro Hawks bias).

C Ilgauskas << Horford

PF Bosh = Smith

SF James >>>>>>>... Williams

SG Wade >>> JJ

PG Chalmers = Bibby

Their starting 5 is clearly better than ours despite lack of very good C (big Z will be saved for PO and won't play more than 20 mpg) and PG. The only flow in this line up is not so good interior D.

Bench:

C/PF Haslem, Anthony, Howard, Magloire >> Pachulia, Powell, Collins

SF, SG, G, PG Miller, Jones, House, Arroyo = Crawford Sr., Evans, Crawford Jr., Teague

Let's be honest here - on paper Heat are not even in the same league.

Heat's biggest issue is lack of quality C which makes match up against Magic interesting. I believe that currently Wade is a counterbalance for that so James gives Heat the age in such comparison. If Orlando gets Anthony things will get more interesting.

There's only one guy who can have the ball at each possession. They will have to find a good balance and know each other. Therefore, the Heat may not be as good as some think. I recall PTL doing this some time back: They had a squad with a much better coach (Dunleavy Sr.) but all the bricks came tumbling down. Man, Pippen, Stoudamire, Wallace, Sabonis, Grant... Hell, they even had Jermaine ONeal.

[macdaddy]

I can understand believing the Heat will be one of the best teams in the league. They definitely should be. Assuming they will win 'several titles' is a far different thing. That assumes some things we don't know about them: chemistry, defense, injuries, matchups in the playoffs. Plus, we don't know for sure that Wade and Lebron will continue to get superstar treatment from the refs:laughing5:

[tremor]

There's only one guy who can have the ball at each possession. They will have to find a good balance and know each other. Therefore, the Heat may not be as good as some think. I recall PTL doing this some time back: They had a squad with a much better coach (Dunleavy Sr.) but all the bricks came tumbling down. Man, Pippen, Stoudamire, Wallace, Sabonis, Grant... Hell, they even had Jermaine ONeal.

That Portland team had no single top 10 player if remember well.

I don't buy "one ball" argument.

1. Wade and James don't have to play together all the time. Actually Miami can have at least one of them on the court all the time which might be a serious match up problem for any second unit in the league.

2. No one is able to give 100% for 36 mins. Having another superstar is a luxury of getting some rest even while on the court. This is especially good news for Wade who carried his team offensively in last seasons.

3. James played 40 mins/game last season, he might see his minutes cut a little bit to save his energy for play offs.

4. Rested players are more efficient - see 2. and 3.

5. Both Wade and James make their teammates better. They should be able to do this favor to each other (and Bosh too).

6. Particularly neither James nor Wade have reputation of good jumpshooters. But these guys didn't have a chance to fire wide open shots being focal point of opponents' defenses and still maintained decent efficiency. Now they can create for each other, I expect FG% of both to go up. And Bosh can shoot.

There's no doubt that all three, including Bosh, have to sacrifice individual stats to succeed. And this might become an issue. I think point averages at level 25, 25 and 20 are realistic. If Wade scores significantly more than James (like 27 vs 23) this may cause some tensions. Other than that I don't see any drawbacks of three excellent offensive players on one team.

On paper Miami Heat is the best team in the league. But it doesn't mean that they'll win several titles as macdaddy already explained.

[Diesel]

That Portland team had no single top 10 player if remember well.

I don't buy "one ball" argument.

1. Wade and James don't have to play together all the time. Actually Miami can have at least one of them on the court all the time which might be a serious match up problem for any second unit in the league.

2. No one is able to give 100% for 36 mins. Having another superstar is a luxury of getting some rest even while on the court. This is especially good news for Wade who carried his team offensively in last seasons.

3. James played 40 mins/game last season, he might see his minutes cut a little bit to save his energy for play offs.

4. Rested players are more efficient - see 2. and 3.

5. Both Wade and James make their teammates better. They should be able to do this favor to each other (and Bosh too).

6. Particularly neither James nor Wade have reputation of good jumpshooters. But these guys didn't have a chance to fire wide open shots being focal point of opponents' defenses and still maintained decent efficiency. Now they can create for each other, I expect FG% of both to go up. And Bosh can shoot.

There's no doubt that all three, including Bosh, have to sacrifice individual stats to succeed. And this might become an issue. I think point averages at level 25, 25 and 20 are realistic. If Wade scores significantly more than James (like 27 vs 23) this may cause some tensions. Other than that I don't see any drawbacks of three excellent offensive players on one team.

On paper Miami Heat is the best team in the league. But it doesn't mean that they'll win several titles as macdaddy already explained.

1, THE Flaw in this is that by themselves, they were not champions. Usually, you match a player of that with a dominant big. Here you have 2 ball hogging forces. I understand that for a while, they will be very complimentary of each other and they probably will share and look good. However, the end of a close game will come.

2. This is true. They will be able to sit. But... will they be fruitful? Lebron with Wade on the bench is a worse team than he had in Cleveland. Wade with Lebron on the bench is a bit of an upgrade from his Miami teams but his Miami teams wasn't that good.

3. I don't think this is an issue.

4. Again.. redundant. Lebron nor Wade loss because they were tired. They loss because they were not big men.

5. Both Wade and James are ball hogs too. Both men need the ball in their hands to make their teams better. Somebody has to be Pippen.

6. I don't assume the defenses are going to leave either guy wide open. Most defense will either play Zone or straight up man.

What you haven't explained is how they will play defensively. How they will play against teams with dominant bigs. How they will play when they are forced to run?

You said that the PTL team didn't have a player who was top 10? Wallace was an alllstar. Pippen was 2nd team all defense. Smith, Stoudamire, and Sabonis were former allstars and standout. Then they had young players like Brian Grant, Bonzi Wells, Jermaine Oneal... and Crafty Vets like Greg Anthony and Detlef Shrempf. I don't think that there has been that much talent amassed on one team in history. They were deep. The reason they don't have personal accolades is because they bought into the fact that everybody should sacrifice and play.

[tremor]

1, THE Flaw in this is that by themselves, they were not champions. Usually, you match a player of that with a dominant big.

Jordan & Pippen anyone?

Here you have 2 ball hogging forces. I understand that for a while, they will be very complimentary of each other and they probably will share and look good. However, the end of a close game will come.

I can't even grasp what problem they can have at the end of a close game. Spoelstra has so many options that opposing team has no chance to guess which one he chooses given time.

2. This is true. They will be able to sit. But... will they be fruitful? Lebron with Wade on the bench is a worse team than he had in Cleveland. Wade with Lebron on the bench is a bit of an upgrade from his Miami teams but his Miami teams wasn't that good.

I'm talking about playing second unit + one of superstars vs opposing team second unit (e.g. Hawks with Jamal as leader).

5. Both Wade and James are ball hogs too. Both men need the ball in their hands to make their teams better. Somebody has to be Pippen.

They can share those responsibilities and adjust depending of match ups, daily disposition etc. Very few teams have starts playing good defense at both SG and SF (Hawks, Lakers, ...?). They'll be much better version of Jamal and JJ who are quite tough to stop.

6. I don't assume the defenses are going to leave either guy wide open. Most defense will either play Zone or straight up man.

Initially surly no one will be open, but both Wade and James are pretty good at playing one on one.

Also picks with Bosh will be deadly.

They have enough weapons to break the zone (Miller, House, Jones can shoot 3, Bosh, Haslem and Ilgauskas have nice mid-range game) from outside.

What you haven't explained is how they will play defensively. How they will play against teams with dominant bigs. How they will play when they are forced to run?

Chalmers/Miller, Wade, James = one of the best perimeter defenses in the league. Their bigs are good enough to guard majority of teams but they'll struggle against Magic, Celtics and Lakers. As I already stated that's their biggest weakness.

James and Wade are very good in transition defense.

You said that the PTL team didn't have a player who was top 10? Wallace was an alllstar. Pippen was 2nd team all defense. Smith, Stoudamire, and Sabonis were former allstars and standout. Then they had young players like Brian Grant, Bonzi Wells, Jermaine Oneal... and Crafty Vets like Greg Anthony and Detlef Shrempf. I don't think that there has been that much talent amassed on one team in history. They were deep. The reason they don't have personal accolades is because they bought into the fact that everybody should sacrifice and play.

I did and you indirectly confirmed. We're talking here about team that has 2 of 5 best players in the game.

Edited August 19, 2010 by tremor

[Diesel]

Jordan & Pippen anyone?

Between Lebron and Wade, who is willing to be Pippen. Moreover, the Bulls were not about offense, they were about a defense that shut teams down when they wanted to. Their offense was very simple, give the ball to MJ and move out of the way.

I can't even grasp what problem they can have at the end of a close game. Spoelstra has so many options that opposing team has no chance to guess which one he chooses given time.

There's no close game plan. Options down the stretch is not good. Down the stretch, every championship team has always had that one guy that said give me the ball. Let me get my prediction out for you. If everybody involved stays healthy... The Heat will find themselves in a series against either the Magic, Celts, or Bucks and they will have to have a goto guy and won't be able to choose.

I'm talking about playing second unit + one of superstars vs opposing team second unit (e.g. Hawks with Jamal as leader).

Too much playstation. 2nd units are not real units. Usually every coach use their bench as "RESERVES". They have either a sub pattern where they bring in one or two players off the bench... or they substitute by hot hand/cold hand/tired. However, nobody in the NBA subs out all 5 guys and has one guy as being the "leader of the second unit". That's playstation terminology. Jamal is the 6th man. The first reserve off the bench if you will.

They can share those responsibilities and adjust depending of match ups, daily disposition etc. Very few teams have starts playing good defense at both SG and SF (Hawks, Lakers, ...?). They'll be much better version of Jamal and JJ who are quite tough to stop.

The heat's strength will be defense. They're lack of strength will be depth.

Initially surly no one will be open, but both Wade and James are pretty good at playing one on one.

Also picks with Bosh will be deadly.

They have enough weapons to break the zone (Miller, House, Jones can shoot 3, Bosh, Haslem and Ilgauskas have nice mid-range game) from outside.

Uhm... they are going to have to prove it. On paper, we should be devastating against the zone. Especially when Bibby plays. However, a zone defense brings us to a grinding halt. It makes us a jump shooting team. It will do the same to Miami.

Chalmers/Miller, Wade, James = one of the best perimeter defenses in the league. Their bigs are good enough to guard majority of teams but they'll struggle against Magic, Celtics and Lakers. As I already stated that's their biggest weakness.

James and Wade are very good in transition defense.

I did and you indirectly confirmed. We're talking here about team that has 2 of 5 best players in the game.

We'll revisit all of this later...

[Chickenstanley]

Mr. Sothran,

There was no need to refer to my account as a "joke". This borders on a personal insult and Dolfan does not allow such things on HIS forum. I did not refer to your post as a "joke". I made the claim that it was baseless and then asked you to explain yourself.

Play the ball -- not the man.

Without ever having played a single game, it seems ludicrous (to me) to assume a team is the "best team in the NBA". You still have not offered this forum any basis that this team is what you claim. Why?

That they have 3 Top 15 players? Who's rank is that? I'm not aware of any rank on players that is anything more than one person after another's opinion. What night are you ranking them? When the weather is hot or cold? When the stock market is up or down that day? When which play is needed? Point all of us to something concrete, please.

That people whose livliehood's depend on the success of the NBA are promoting this Miami team --- is supposed to taken as some serious basis for your remark? Was that not a surprise to you? For goodness sake, they made a complete spectacle out of the James "DECISION"! Did you really think they would stop promoting him after that?

And you never even explained to us exactly what you meant by "best team". That they will win the title? The most regular season games? Draw the most fans at opposing arena's? Have the most highlight clips on SportsCenter? Can you not answer a simple question?

As far as I can tell, you have posted nothing to convinve anyone that "Miami has the best team" as of this writing.

CS

[Sothron]

Mr. Sothran,

There was no need to refer to my account as a "joke". This borders on a personal insult and Dolfan does not allow such things on HIS forum. I did not refer to your post as a "joke". I made the claim that it was baseless and then asked you to explain yourself.

Play the ball -- not the man.

Without ever having played a single game, it seems ludicrous (to me) to assume a team is the "best team in the NBA". You still have not offered this forum any basis that this team is what you claim. Why?

That they have 3 Top 15 players? Who's rank is that? I'm not aware of any rank on players that is anything more than one person after another's opinion. What night are you ranking them? When the weather is hot or cold? When the stock market is up or down that day? When which play is needed? Point all of us to something concrete, please.

That people whose livliehood's depend on the success of the NBA are promoting this Miami team --- is supposed to taken as some serious basis for your remark? Was that not a surprise to you? For goodness sake, they made a complete spectacle out of the James "DECISION"! Did you really think they would stop promoting him after that?

And you never even explained to us exactly what you meant by "best team". That they will win the title? The most regular season games? Draw the most fans at opposing arena's? Have the most highlight clips on SportsCenter? Can you not answer a simple question?

As far as I can tell, you have posted nothing to convinve anyone that "Miami has the best team" as of this writing.

CS

This is comedic gold. You actually need someone to tell you Lebron James and Wade are two of the top five players in the NBA? Really? You didn't see the part where players and coaches both in the league and out of it are projecting them to break the Bulls single season win record and also probably win multiple titles? I guess I'm just the only person in the world to think these things? LOL oh man classic.

I refer to an account with almost no post history and making laughable posts as a joke account because 99.9% of the time it is. This post doesn't help your argument.

[tremor]

Between Lebron and Wade, who is willing to be Pippen. Moreover, the Bulls were not about offense, they were about a defense that shut teams down when they wanted to. Their offense was very simple, give the ball to MJ and move out of the way.

They don't have to copycat MJ and Scottie to succeed. The issue here is to agree on who what role plays (and what roles are to be played).

There's no close game plan. Options down the stretch is not good. Down the stretch, every championship team has always had that one guy that said give me the ball. Let me get my prediction out for you. If everybody involved stays healthy... The Heat will find themselves in a series against either the Magic, Celts, or Bucks and they will have to have a goto guy and won't be able to choose.

One time they'll choose Dwane, another James. What's the problem with taking such decision? Opponents will have to choose who should be guarded by their best on-ball defender.

Too much playstation. 2nd units are not real units. Usually every coach use their bench as "RESERVES". They have either a sub pattern where they bring in one or two players off the bench... or they substitute by hot hand/cold hand/tired. However, nobody in the NBA subs out all 5 guys and has one guy as being the "leader of the second unit". That's playstation terminology. Jamal is the 6th man. The first reserve off the bench if you will.

My son has PSP and I admit - I played Tekken 6 but there wasn't any second unit in it.

I might have used wrong term (which is usually used to describe set of 5 players that are reserves for 5 positions on the court) but you don't have to act like that. Imagine, I did it because of laziness, not ignorance.

What I meant (and you could have guessed) is the time when majority of the players on court are reserves and given team's best scorer is on the bench (in Hawks case last season it was usually Josh (+ Marvin/Mike) + Jamal, Zaza, Mo/Jeff. So, our reserves which, according to some, gave up too many leads in second half, might face this season Heat's reserves (Arroyo/House, Miller, Haslem, Anthony/Howard) lead by James/Wade.

Uhm... they are going to have to prove it. On paper, we should be devastating against the zone. Especially when Bibby plays. However, a zone defense brings us to a grinding halt. It makes us a jump shooting team. It will do the same to Miami.

To have tools is one thing, but to use them is another. Good ball movement is needed to find open man when playing against zone. Miami will have to learn to do this (or will grasp this instinctively). Here's hoping that with new offensive system Hawks will learn too.

[Wretch]

Back to the matter at hand....

<<<<ATTENTION ASG AND RICK SUND>>>>

Not trying to tell you guys how to own a team or how to run it. Heh, my finances and round ball expertise fall far short. I have some advice for you though. Something this franchise hasn't seemed to figure out in about...oh...40 years or so. The reason why there is no pop around this club.... The reason why we have never made it past the 2nd round - EVER. There is a reason why the best teams in the league stay strong.

They make things happen.

They don't sit around, piddling with the same 3 or 4 guys, shopping for coaches and players in the pawn shop. If you want to win games, that's fine. Pawn shop away. This club will win ballgames. They may win A LOT of games. I find it difficult to believe they'll win the games that count when everyone around us is trying to make moves like this. Go ahead and give us the business smile and assure us that you're dedicated to putting a quality product on the floor. While you're at it, remind us that games are not won on paper. I might be so inclined to agree with you. However, the teams that have been to the semi's and the finals over the past 40 years or so have all had something that your teams haven't. If the formula isn't on the paper, then figure out what it is.

The proof is in the pudding and we haven't been there.

I love my team and I'll root for them until the last second of the season ticks. But you guys need to get off your @sses and make something happen. Orlando may not get Carmelo. However, it's only a matter of time before some already overpowered team makes a similar move - if Miami hasn't already negated such moves for the next 5-6 seasons. We'll wake up and find some other ridiculous dude going to an already ridiculous situation. For once, I'd really like to see that be us. Just once.

Edited August 20, 2010 by Wretch

[Chickenstanley]

Mr. Sothran,

You are continuing to embarass yourself with your responses.

Responses along the lines of:

"Because everyone should know ______ ". (and) Because everyone is saying _____" does not answer the simple question I asked you.

Then you attempt to judge me (personally) by my number of posts.

If this is the route you want to take please answer, these questions:

Do you know my name?

My height?

Weight?

Background?

Where I live?

My occupation?

My marital status?

I'm guessing that the only thing you know about me is my number of posts. Is this not true, Sothran?

Mr. Sothran, I have nothing against you and have enjoyed many of your posts over the years and most have been above average, actually. But I have no belief that you can or will attempt to address my questions intelligently.

So I will let you go.

CS