Accountability.

[Diesel]

One of the things that Al mentioned about this loss is that there was no accountability. Being that he played on 3 championship teams, he should know accountability is one of the things that a basketball team should have. My question is does L.D. status as friend to the players and understanding coach stop him from holding guys accountable? We lose, we shrug our shoulders, we go on to do the same thing the next time we play. No accountability. Now, everybody has a big contract, nobody but Craw is working towards something and the younger guys are under the assumption that because they are young, it's OK for them to make mistakes.

This is one of the problems with bringing in a coach who was an assistant. Unless they are a general like Avery Johnson, there will be no accountability put in place. As somewhat of a Hawks Historian, this kind of thing has happened before in Hawks history. Back before Dominique, the Hawks had a great coach named Hubie Brown. He took a 31-51 Hawks team to 41-41 then to 46-36 then to 50-32. However, 30 years ago, back in 1980-1981 season, the Hawks under Brown, felt the big bump in the road. Everybody else in the conference was getting better but the Hawks plan was to keep the same team. They kept the same team and they fell from 50-32 to 31-51. Drew, Johnson, and Roundfield were their normal selves offensively. Hell, even better. However, this team didn't win. The team was turned over to a young Mike Fratello to end the season but didn't win. The next year, a new coach appeared. Kevin Loughery. Under Loughery, the team started back winning. 42-40. The reason, Loughery believed in two things: Defense and Accountability. Loughery started the Mike Woodson school of coaching. He believed that defense was everything and that offense will take care of itself. He coached the great one Michael Jordan and Jordan said of Loughery that "he was the most fun coach that I have ever played for because he let us freelance on offense. We could do whatever we wanted." The problem is that though Loughery Style got them to the playoffs, it never got any of his team far into the playoffs. Just like Woody.

So what do you do? The Hawks hired Mike Fratello after Loughery's 2 playoff years. These Hawks have a similiar decision to make. For LD, the good thing is that Fratello was a long time assistant that knew all the players well. However, the Hawks turn around came because they got a guy named Dominique Jacque Wilkins. Will we have to wait until we can find a real superstar? or will a coaching change make all the difference? It's just game 14... Let's wait and see.

[ATL_BALLER]

Diesel, there should've been accountability immediately following the Orlando playoff embarrassment. And replacing Woody with his assistant doesn't count. There should've been some serious roster adjustments and a credible coach brought in from the outside.

The worst part of all is that the excuses will continue. The ASG will simply write this season off as an adjustment to LD's style, and we'll be in the exact same situation next year. GUARANTEED.

[Diesel]

Diesel, there should've been accountability immediately following the Orlando playoff embarrassment. And replacing Woody with his assistant doesn't count. There should've been some serious roster adjustments and a credible coach brought in from the outside.

The worst part of all is that the excuses will continue. The ASG will simply write this season off as an adjustment to LD's style, and we'll be in the exact same situation next year. GUARANTEED.

I don't know. I think what we are seeing is a hallmark of a Sund GM'd team. It's not that Sund isn't trying, but he does the same thing. He takes a team, pay maybe overpay to resign it's players and never really sets a vision for where he wants the team to go. In Seattle, he did that. The interesting thing is that Sund had a good coach in Nate McMillan but he gave him a team with bad chemistry and no center. He spent three drafts looking for a C. He squandered Lewis, Allen, and Collison. His Seattle teams wasn't bad, they went 52-30 but they never did climb over the hump and then he started paying (even overpaying) people. That's a Sund trademark. I think at the end of the day, Sund will not do a deal that will get us the player we need. I give him credit for Gary Payton for Ray Allen. However, it's very hard to see what his major move will be with this team. I just hope that we can find the right mix of players to give LD a chance if LD is the right guy for the job. I think LD has good plans, I just don't know if he has enough of the players respect (not admiration) to make them work as hard as they need to work in order to be a winner.

I think if you bring in a coach that can flash a ring and who can dictate, that this team will be much better. Maybe this is a good time for Mike Fratello to come back to coaching for one last ride?

[Dsinner]

I don't know. I think what we are seeing is a hallmark of a Sund GM'd team. It's not that Sund isn't trying, but he does the same thing. He takes a team, pay maybe overpay to resign it's players and never really sets a vision for where he wants the team to go. In Seattle, he did that. The interesting thing is that Sund had a good coach in Nate McMillan but he gave him a team with bad chemistry and no center. He spent three drafts looking for a C. He squandered Lewis, Allen, and Collison. His Seattle teams wasn't bad, they went 52-30 but they never did climb over the hump and then he started paying (even overpaying) people. That's a Sund trademark. I think at the end of the day, Sund will not do a deal that will get us the player we need. I give him credit for Gary Payton for Ray Allen. However, it's very hard to see what his major move will be with this team. I just hope that we can find the right mix of players to give LD a chance if LD is the right guy for the job. I think LD has good plans, I just don't know if he has enough of the players respect (not admiration) to make them work as hard as they need to work in order to be a winner.

I think if you bring in a coach that can flash a ring and who can dictate, that this team will be much better. Maybe this is a good time for Mike Fratello to come back to coaching for one last ride?

LOL @ you thinking this is a Sund controlled team. What you're witnessing is a Spirit controlled team.

[Diesel]

LOL @ you thinking this is a Sund controlled team. What you're witnessing is a Spirit controlled team.

I have no doubt that the Spirit sets the budget, but I think that they are not the Jerry Jones of Basketball. I think they are more likely to let Sund work within his budget and anything outside of that requires a meet and agreement by all parties involved.

[NineOhTheRino]

Accountability????

I'm sick of Al playing media darling and running his yap as if he's not part of the problem. Did you not suck too Al? The guy is a classic finger pointer. I saw the game and it was Al who got abused by an 60 yo Shaq on the boards.

Edited November 23, 2010 by NineOhTheRino

[TNHawk]

Diesel, Others -

What would you suggest Drew do in holding players more accountable? His only negative levers are publicity (call them out in public - he's done that), and reducing playing time - difficult to do when you have players hurt and you know you'll lose if you don't play them (Joe or Jamal), for example.

I believe in accountability but I also think it is about influence. At least in the media Drew seems to be saying the right things to influence his players.

[frosgrim]

Diesel, Others -

What would you suggest Drew do in holding players more accountable? His only negative levers are publicity (call them out in public - he's done that), and reducing playing time - difficult to do when you have players hurt and you know you'll lose if you don't play them (Joe or Jamal), for example.

I believe in accountability but I also think it is about influence. At least in the media Drew seems to be saying the right things to influence his players.

Not playing starters for a game will send the message. Even not starting them for a game will send a message. This is the point of the season where you can give up a single loss or two to get a message across or heal a critical player. In the Hawks case, JJ needs to sit until healthy. The rest of the team needs to sit and be embarresed for their lack of effort.

Ultimately it really comes down to that this group of players doesn't respect Drew. They aren't willing to go to war for him. The great coaches get guys to play for them through thick and thin. They may not always win, but they'll put everything on the floor all the time. The Hawks simply aren't doing that right now.

[ATL_BALLER]

Not playing starters for a game will send the message. Even not starting them for a game will send a message. This is the point of the season where you can give up a single loss or two to get a message across or heal a critical player. In the Hawks case, JJ needs to sit until healthy. The rest of the team needs to sit and be embarresed for their lack of effort.

Ultimately it really comes down to that this group of players doesn't respect Drew. They aren't willing to go to war for him. The great coaches get guys to play for them through thick and thin. They may not always win, but they'll put everything on the floor all the time. The Hawks simply aren't doing that right now.

True, but the great players don't need a coach to motivate them. Their self-driven.

[Sothron]

Diesel, Others -

What would you suggest Drew do in holding players more accountable? His only negative levers are publicity (call them out in public - he's done that), and reducing playing time - difficult to do when you have players hurt and you know you'll lose if you don't play them (Joe or Jamal), for example.

I believe in accountability but I also think it is about influence. At least in the media Drew seems to be saying the right things to influence his players.

I will tell you what I would do: sit some of these guys on their *ss and let someone else start whose showing some kind of energy and effort out there. This is simply unacceptable.

[Vol4ever]

Diesel, there should've been accountability immediately following the Orlando playoff embarrassment. And replacing Woody with his assistant doesn't count. There should've been some serious roster adjustments and a credible coach brought in from the outside.

The worst part of all is that the excuses will continue. The ASG will simply write this season off as an adjustment to LD's style, and we'll be in the exact same situation next year. GUARANTEED.

x 1000

[spotatl]

To me benching someone only works if the backup actually produces. If the backups are terrible then it just reinforces to the player that the team is better off with them in the lineup. And this is where the Hawks terrible drafting hurts them so much. There aren't capable young guys on the roster just waiting for their chance. You need the backups to be pushing for playing time for the benching threat to be legitimate.

Edited November 23, 2010 by spotatl

[DJlaysitup]

Accountability????

I'm sick of Al playing media darling and running his yap as if he's not part of the problem. Did you not suck too Al? The guy is a classic finger pointer. I saw the game and it was Al who got abused by an 60 yo Shaq on the boards.

If Al had any get-up-and-go he would grow 4 inches, gain 50 pounds, and stand right up to the big Shamrock. Add to that Smoove should grow for inches and block those Garnett fade-aways.

While I agree that Al has gotten "media darling" treatment somewhat...the real folks who need to be help accountable are the ones who decided that a 6-9 1/2 Center and a 6-8 PF were going to be able to stand up to the elite nba teams in the first place.

[lethalweapon3]

'Tis hard for any coach to be taken seriously when he's making less than Harry The Hawk.

~lw3

[Diesel]

Diesel, Others -

What would you suggest Drew do in holding players more accountable? His only negative levers are publicity (call them out in public - he's done that), and reducing playing time - difficult to do when you have players hurt and you know you'll lose if you don't play them (Joe or Jamal), for example.

I believe in accountability but I also think it is about influence. At least in the media Drew seems to be saying the right things to influence his players.

Since his first day coaching, I think he needed to set a tone in games. I hoped that every time Josh Smith pulled a Jumper, that LD would call him to the bench and let him sit 10 - 15 minutes. The same with Iso Joe/Craw and not boxing out. There are some games that we can afford to lose if it builds the teams' respect and acknowledgment of the coach. Right now, we see a lot of lip service off the court but on the court there's nobody marshalling these players to do what they are supposed to do. At the beginning of the season, LD named JJ, Bibby, and Smoove as captains. As captains, that means that take a leadership role. He ought to have something at his disposal whereby he makes guys want to step up. Lenny Wilkens says that coaching is not about win totals, but about did you get the most out of your players. He makes a very good point about Red Auerbach before Bill Russell. Still a great coach even though he hadn't won the ring. Well, LD may be a great coach, but right now, he's not getting the most out of his players.

True, but the great players don't need a coach to motivate them. Their self-driven.

But great teams do. We may not have a great player on this team. No Jordan, No Kobe.. but we have the ability to have a great team. For that to happen, they have to be willing to go to war, lose self in the process, and play team basketball. Right now, guys go back to the me against the world view when things are not working.

[TNHawk]

Good discussion.

[DJlaysitup]

Since his first day coaching, I think he needed to set a tone in games. I hoped that every time Josh Smith pulled a Jumper, that LD would call him to the bench and let him sit 10 - 15 minutes...

Agree with much of your post - but not that part. It's obvious that Smoove has been working on his jump shot and...while I'd rather see him going inside...he's not really costing us games by shooting them occasionally....he even won us a game with a three. LD has bigger fish to fry than Smoove's shooting.

[AHF]

Agree with much of your post - but not that part. It's obvious that Smoove has been working on his jump shot and...while I'd rather see him going inside...he's not really costing us games by shooting them occasionally....he even won us a game with a three. LD has bigger fish to fry than Smoove's shooting.

You can argue about whether Smoove's ump shooting should be on the list given the improvement he has shown this season and presumably in practice. Diesel's point, however, is dead on. When people start breaking from the system and freelancing against the coach's instructions they should be sat down so that a tone is set and expectations are clearly communicated. If one of those expectations was that Josh wouldn't shoot 3's, then he should be benched for shooting 3's. If Drew saw the improvement and decided to let him shoot, then it obviously shouldn't be. But people who aren't going to give the details like boxing out the attention they deserve need something to get their attention and I think D's suggestion is dead on that playing time is the only thing that can reach guys with these salaries.

[Crank]

Its too late for accountability once we locked up Joe and AL it was all over for this current group I mentioned this last June . Our current starting 5 went as far as it could go last season but instead we chose to blame the coach instead of letting the players know that the playoffs is where you are ultimately judged and without improvement in the win column the window for that starting 5 would close soon .

Ive never heard of a team keeping the same core of a 2nd rd playoff team together this long with they have played in the second rd .

I remember when Dallas had Dirk,Nash,Howard,Jamison , Marquis Daniels ,Finley, they didnt say oooh we have some talent so we will just sit here for the next 5 years and do nothing as long as we make the playoffs . They evaluated there players BASED ON THE PLAYOFFS and then made moves to better the team based on that . They didnt hold there breath and wait on to magically morph into all nba players they raised there values and then sold or simply allowed good players to walk .

The Bulls lucked into Rose due to the knicks incompetence but prior to that they had Gordon,Deng,Hinrich,Chandler,Curry all at the same time who made the playoffs while young and they also refused to sell high to grab that superstar because they had dreams of 4-5 all nba players growing togethers.

Other teams with multiple young players caught on quick and let it be known that we shouldnt have to wait 5-6 seasons anymore to judge playoffs teams. This organizations vision is flawed .

[AHF]

The Bulls lucked into Rose due to the knicks incompetence but prior to that they had Gordon,Deng,Hinrich,Chandler,Curry all at the same time who made the playoffs while young and they also refused to sell high to grab that superstar because they had dreams of 4-5 all nba players growing togethers.

(A) If they didn't move those guys for a stud and wanted their young guys to grow together, didn't they do exactly what the Hawks are doing?

(B) The moved Chandler to sign Ben Wallace who was a star. Signing Wallace was a terrible move for Chicago.

© You are right that they lucked into Rose who saved that team.