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Who is your favorite "Shoulda been Hawk"


Diesel

  

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Oh man...you gonna light a fire in me today.

angry22.gif

OMG...round and round and round and round we went about Chris Paul. He's too short. He hit someone in the nuts. He's going to get posted up every game. PGs take too long to develop. Blah blah blah blah blah blah... Then we got ALL these SDFL:KFJSD:LKSDJ:LDJ forwards and what does that asshat do? "DOI!!! I'M GONNA DRAFT ANOTHER FORWARD! DUR! THIS ONE IS JAMES WORTHY WITH A JUMPSHOT DURHUR!" Idiot. We were SCREAMING at those idiots to draft a damn PG. Oh what could have been...

Then Dwight Howard...OMG. PEOPLE PAY ATTENION! See, the problem was this team was never allowed to build through the draft under Pete Babcock. So he traded away draft picks and he kept us just good enough so that we never drafted guys like Iverson, Garnett, Grant Hill, Shaq, Kobe...etc. We were never players in the lottery so some people just didn't get it.

"It's just a crap shoot!"

"There are no sure things in the draft!"

"You don't know what that player will be"

"I'd rather watch my team fight for wins at the end of the season! I'm not going to root against them!"

F$#K that. We have ABSOLUTELY NO SHOT AT MAKING THE PLAYOFFS...why the HELL are we going to just ignore the draft? Why would we struggle for wins that mean absolutely nothing... Hell, we didn't have a SINGLE player that we had ANY intention on keeping. So it wasn't like they needed the "moral" victories. All we were doing was lowering our chances to draft - DWIGHT "FREIGHT TRAIN THAT CAN'T STOP KICKING OUR *ss" HOWARD. Now we're scrambling like chickens trying to find a way to contain him and his team.

For the love of God Almighty...if we are 20 or 30 games out of the playoffs next time, can we PLEASE FORGET ABOUT THE MEANINGLESS WINS AND TANK THIS THING INTO THE GROUND SO WE CAN HAVE THE BEST POSSIBLE DRAFT POSITION!? The guys that win games, put asses in seats, and take their teams to the promised lands? You will be HARD PRESSED to find them outside of 1 - 10 in the lottery. If I got a choice, give me the closest damn pick to the top that I can get. To hell with an extra win on a sub-30 win season. Give me Dwight Howard. He should have been a Hawk.

BTW...I voted Paul. sobbing.gif

Edited by Wretch
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I don't know where to start, that's the problem with this franchise. Too many screw-ups.

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Y'know...I'm just sitting here looking at this. We don't know how it would have turned out obviously but...

PG - Chris Paul

SG - Joe Johnson

SF - (whoever the F#$@ you want)

PF- Josh Smith

C - Dwight Howard

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

...your Atlanta Hawks. *EASILY*

And I'm SLAP out of Vodka. sh!t...

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Y'know...I'm just sitting here looking at this. We don't know how it would have turned out obviously but...

PG - Chris Paul

SG - Joe Johnson

SF - (whoever the F#$@ you want)

PF- Josh Smith

C - Dwight Howard

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

...your Atlanta Hawks. *EASILY*

And I'm SLAP out of Vodka. sh!t...

Never would have happened. If we got Howard then we probably would not have had Joe and Paul.

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If I could look into a crystal ball and see that the sequence of events that led to Chris Paul being often injured would have been altered by him being here, then it's him easily. The closest thing to Isiah I've seen, but I just hate the idea of players making millions of dollars wearing suits regularly on the sideline, posting all zeroes on the stat sheet. Hate it. If I couldn't look into the pretty crystal ball, then the Doctor. Our franchise would be twice as prestigous now, but we probably wouldn't have gotten the HHF, or worst case, have the Doc play out of position a la Al and Josh, which I guess wouldn't have been too bad.

Edited by benhillboy
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Bill Russell. Russell and Petite together? Wow.

My feeling is had we kept Russell, we would have had the dynasty that the Celtics had.

Y'know...I'm just sitting here looking at this. We don't know how it would have turned out obviously but...

PG - Chris Paul

SG - Joe Johnson

SF - (whoever the F#$@ you want)

PF- Josh Smith

C - Dwight Howard

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

Chris Paul, Joe Johnson, Josh Smith, Dwight Howard....

...your Atlanta Hawks. *EASILY*

And I'm SLAP out of Vodka. sh!t...

Unfortunately, it would not have worked like that.

We would have had Howard, Johnson and Smith, but with that combination, there would have been no shot at Paul the next year. But really.. do you need more?

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My feeling is had we kept Russell, we would have had the dynasty that the Celtics had.

Unfortunately, it would not have worked like that.

We would have had Howard, Johnson and Smith, but with that combination, there would have been no shot at Paul the next year. But really.. do you need more?

Yeah, I voted Howard. Stupid Sura and his freaking triple doubles...

Paul is a very close second in my book.

But, if you go back thte Nique days, Malone would have been tremendous. We could have played Willis at the 5 or traded him for a SG.

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My feeling is had we kept Russell, we would have had the dynasty that the Celtics had.

Unfortunately, it would not have worked like that.

We would have had Howard, Johnson and Smith, but with that combination, there would have been no shot at Paul the next year. But really.. do you need more?

Tanking is easy go%20ahead.gif

...but in all seriousness, JJ didn't join the team until AFTER the 2005 draft debacle. So all we would have had is a young Smoove that couldn't do much of anything besides block shots and a VERY raw Howard. That team wouldn't have been that good and even if they landed a top 10/11-ish pick (as Orlando did with Howard), package a protected 1st and the 11th, for the #3 or #4 and snatch CP3.

What we wouldn't have had is a shot at Brandon Roy...but OMG if we could have landed the 6th/7th pick in the 2006 lottery too... cant%20believe.gif

At Point Guard...

chris-paul.jpg

No excuses for not taking Chris Paul.

At Shooting Guard...

BrandonRoy.jpg

Young team could have possibly landed in 2006 draft at 6 or 7 and he would have been the clear choice.

At Small Forward...

joe-johnson1.jpg

FA signing that we actually got right (except for the extra 1st and stupid lottery protection on the other).

At Power Forward

josh-smith.jpg

Fell all the way to 17, easy pickup that we actually got right.

And at Center...

dwight-howard2.jpg

Should have tanked that season (Terry Stotts, Sura, Jack, JT be damned...) and brought him home.

Soooooo..........

Anyone else want to form a bloodthirsty mob with me and beat down Hawks' front office? This could have EASILY been our team and probably should have. We would have had a dynasty.

Edited by Wretch
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My feeling is had we kept Russell, we would have had the dynasty that the Celtics had.

We won one championship without Russell so I can only imagine how many we would have won with him. When you are talking about a guy in the conversation with Magic, Jordan, etc. that is some special potential. No offense to Chris Paul or Brandon Roy, etc. but they aren't at that level.

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This could have EASILY been our team and probably should have. We would have had a dynasty.

You think a team with Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith should have been in the top half of the lottery?

It could not EASILY have been our team and certainly should not have been. The fact that no one in NBA in the last 20 years has put together a team remotely like that should be a tip off that it isn't that easy.

The lottery picks Dwight and Paul's teams have had:

Orlando since drafting Dwight Howard: #11 overall 2005

Hornets since drafting Chris Paul: #11 2010, #12 2006, #13 2007

To recap:

#1 We didn't win the lottery in 2004 so couldn't and shouldn't have been able to take Dwight. It takes luck to win the lottery.

#2 So if you land Dwight in 2004, then his success with Orlando says you aren't able to draft Paul or Roy.

#3 If you land Howard in 2004 and then follow that with Paul in 2005, history says you don't get Roy.

That just seems like a complete fantasy to me.

Edited by AHF
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You think a team with Dwight Howard, Chris Paul, Joe Johnson and Josh Smith should have been in the top half of the lottery?

It could not EASILY have been our team and certainly should not have been. The fact that no one in NBA in the last 20 years has put together a team remotely like that should be a tip off that it isn't that easy.

The lottery picks Dwight and Paul's teams have had:

Orlando since drafting Dwight Howard: #11 overall 2005

Hornets since drafting Chris Paul: #11 2010, #12 2006, #13 2007

To recap:

#1 We didn't win the lottery in 2004 so couldn't and shouldn't have been able to take Dwight. It takes luck to win the lottery.

#2 So if you land Dwight in 2004, then his success with Orlando says you aren't able to draft Paul or Roy.

#3 If you land Howard in 2004 and then follow that with Paul in 2005, history says you don't get Roy.

That just seems like a complete fantasy to me.

Not at all AHF. Rarely do I disagree with you, but this is a very easy scenario to me.

Dwight Howard:

Throwing out luck because there's no point in arguing that, but we shot ourselves in the foot in 2004. We fought for wins at the end of the season that pushed us down in the lottery. We should have tanked the season given that we were WELL out of playoff contention and had no intention of keeping any of those guys. HAD we done what we should have done, then we would have been right at the top of the draft...instead of picking 3 or 4 spots behind Orlando.

Contrary to how dominant he plays now, Dwight Howard was not at all a sure thing. He had no shot, could not hit free throws (still can't), had no post game, and was straight out of high school. All he had was size and athleticism. Contrasted to Okafor who was nearly every bit as big and active, less athletic, but a seasoned collegiate. There was no consensus. Moreover, Orlando was actively in trade talks. Had we landed the 2nd or 3rd, (like we should have if we let the season slide) we could have EASILY packaged that and moved up. And we would have considering the marketing impact a homegrown talent like that would have generated.

Next Josh Smith:

Nothing really to discuss here. The guy fell to 17, we had the pick. Done deal.

The 04/05 team:

Antoine Walker (trade bait), Al Harrington (big time trade bait), Boris Diaw (throw in trade bait) and a bunch of nobodies + Josh Smith (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots) and Dwight Howard (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots). I'm sorry, but that is a recipe for a bottom 4 team if I ever saw one. Even if we landed 5 - 10, we got the assets between that, protected future 1sts, and Walker, Harrington, and Diaw. Moving up to get Paul (that everyone thought was too short anyway) would have been easy and/or not necessary.

Marvin had a LOT of hype coming out. If I'm not mistaken, Charlotte and New Orleans tried everything in their power to move up to get him. They Bobcats didn't want to let go of that #13 and the Hornets knew he would be long gone. Had Charlotte or New Orleans landed #2, Marvin was gone. Which means Paul falls to 5 or 6. Seriously...Josh Smith and Howard with a team of nobodies and no point guard could have EASILY gotten us to Chris Paul and Deron Williams territory. Especially with guards like Felton and Webster hovering around there and TONS of talent still filling up the lottery.

Joe Johnson:

Sign his *ss to an offer sheet. Make Phoenix sweat and make a deal. Diaw and a future 1st should have shut them up. We might have even had Al Harrington to deal if we hadn't dealt him in 04 or 05 to move up. It might have taken him to move up in 04, but might not have been necessary. Still, this deal gets done because we're still considered a "lottery team" and nobody understands that CP3 is about to blow up.

PG - Paul, SG - JJ, SF - Smoove, C - Howard. In retrospect, it looks like fantasy. But...

Many on this board wanted Howard and wanted us to tank. We could have gotten him, he wasn't a sure thing and Orlando was more than willing to deal. Smoove and Howard would not have taken us anywhere (especially if we told Woody NOT to and if we dealt Harrington to move up). After we fail in 04/05, there is the PG we need. WHY NOT take him? We have a SF/PF in Smoove... We have a C in Howard... Our targets are set on JJ for the SG...biggest need in a draft celebrated for HIGH QUALITY guards? Paul, Deron, Felton... We could have had one of those guys and none of them were considered head and shoulders above the other. We could have easily had Paul..

Now this team of Paul, JJ, Smoove, and Howard...lol Not sure they'd be in the lottery in 2006. But a few things to consider...and feel free to call this part of my speculation pure BS...lol BUT... Smoove and Howard are still raw and Woodson is still a crap coach. We're really only a couple of years into rebuilding so expectations aren't very high. Honestly, I don't think we could have landed a high pick in the 2006 draft...but talented teams have done worse. Look at Memphis (Gay, Mayo, Conley, Gasol)...

We might have had a chance at a 6th - 10th pick and IF we still had the rights to Harrington through 04/05...him + that pick...to move up? LOL...why are we even discussing this? If any of us had a time machine it'd be awesome. But we are digressing here. The core (minus Roy I will admit) would have been and should have been and could have been our likely choices in the drafts that build the team we have now. IF we had a management team that would pay attention to the Hawksquawk...because honestly...all I did was spell out the majority consensus in here over the past 5-6 years.

Tell me it wasn't.

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Not at all AHF. Rarely do I disagree with you, but this is a very easy scenario to me.

Dwight Howard:

Throwing out luck because there's no point in arguing that, but we shot ourselves in the foot in 2004. We fought for wins at the end of the season that pushed us down in the lottery. We should have tanked the season given that we were WELL out of playoff contention and had no intention of keeping any of those guys. HAD we done what we should have done, then we would have been right at the top of the draft...instead of picking 3 or 4 spots behind Orlando.

Dwight went #1 overall. Do you really think he was going to slip farther than #2? If not, what good would it have done to slip to #3 or #4? The #4 spot in the draft is the most likely draft pick the worst team in the league gets - a 35.8% chance versus the next most likely 25% chance to go #1.

Contrary to how dominant he plays now, Dwight Howard was not at all a sure thing. He had no shot, could not hit free throws (still can't), had no post game, and was straight out of high school. All he had was size and athleticism. Contrasted to Okafor who was nearly every bit as big and active, less athletic, but a seasoned collegiate. There was no consensus. Moreover, Orlando was actively in trade talks. Had we landed the 2nd or 3rd, (like we should have if we let the season slide) we could have EASILY packaged that and moved up. And we would have considering the marketing impact a homegrown talent like that would have generated.

Let's assume we ended up with the #3 pick and had to trade up with the Magic to get him. What are we giving up? Your scenario assumes we acquire the #1 overall pick in the draft from Orlando for the #3 pick and some set of assets not involving our #17 pick in 2004 (which represents Josh Smith) and without giving up future picks in the 2005 and 2006 draft years. Do you really believe we could EASILY move up without giving up any assets of real value? Do you think Orlando would trade the #1 pick for something like the #3 pick and Al Harrington and/or Antoine Walker? That I don't buy that - not with their roster or with the value those guys held.

Next Josh Smith:

Nothing really to discuss here. The guy fell to 17, we had the pick. Done deal.

I see the #17 pick as a necessary inclusion in a deal to land the #1 pick if we aren't giving up our 2005 or 2006 pick. In fact, we offered the #6 and #17 and were immediately shot down so we have to do better.

Teams don't trade the #1 overall pick. They last time it happened was 17 years ago when Orlando got the first overall pick two years in a row and didn't want to pair Shaq with Chris Webber. They got the #2 pick in the draft along with three unconditional first round picks.

What is your EASILY accomplished trade scenario?

The 04/05 team:

Antoine Walker (trade bait), Al Harrington (big time trade bait), Boris Diaw (throw in trade bait) and a bunch of nobodies + Josh Smith (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots) and Dwight Howard (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots). I'm sorry, but that is a recipe for a bottom 4 team if I ever saw one. Even if we landed 5 - 10, we got the assets between that, protected future 1sts, and Walker, Harrington, and Diaw. Moving up to get Paul (that everyone thought was too short anyway) would have been easy and/or not necessary.

Marvin had a LOT of hype coming out. If I'm not mistaken, Charlotte and New Orleans tried everything in their power to move up to get him. They Bobcats didn't want to let go of that #13 and the Hornets knew he would be long gone. Had Charlotte or New Orleans landed #2, Marvin was gone. Which means Paul falls to 5 or 6. Seriously.

Give me your lottery scenarios where Chris Paul falls to #6 in the draft. I don't buy it.

Josh Smith and Howard with a team of nobodies and no point guard could have EASILY gotten us to Chris Paul and Deron Williams territory. Especially with guards like Felton and Webster hovering around there and TONS of talent still filling up the lottery.

I agree Howard would have fewer games in Atlanta than he did in Orlando but he wasn't worthless his rookie season. His win shares were comparable to someone like Lamar Odom's last year. That is definitely a material contribution towards the wins.

No one in the NBA would have taken Felton or Webster over Paul or Deron. Not even Charlotte. I agree that a lot of teams would have taken Marvin over Paul and Deron and that neither of those guys was as highly regarded then as they are now but they were still considered.

So we are back to trading up. Now we presumably already sacrificed future assets in a deal to move up to the #1 pick in the draft. What are we giving up to move up in this draft? Utah gave up the #6 pick, the #27 pick and a 2006 first round pick to land Deron at #4. Are you saying we trade up for the 2004 #1 overall pick and then have assets left to deal up to the #4 pick in the 2005 draft that don't involve us giving up the 2006 first round pick? I am not optimistic that this was EASILY possible with whatever assets we have left over after your trade the previous year.

Joe Johnson:

Sign his *ss to an offer sheet. Make Phoenix sweat and make a deal. Diaw and a future 1st should have shut them up. We might have even had Al Harrington to deal if we hadn't dealt him in 04 or 05 to move up. It might have taken him to move up in 04, but might not have been necessary. Still, this deal gets done because we're still considered a "lottery team" and nobody understands that CP3 is about to blow up.

Everyone understood that Paul was one of the best PG prospects in years but few understood he was the franchise player he has become. He had big value in that draft.

PG - Paul, SG - JJ, SF - Smoove, C - Howard. In retrospect, it looks like fantasy. But...

Many on this board wanted Howard and wanted us to tank. We could have gotten him, he wasn't a sure thing and Orlando was more than willing to deal. Smoove and Howard would not have taken us anywhere (especially if we told Woody NOT to and if we dealt Harrington to move up). After we fail in 04/05, there is the PG we need. WHY NOT take him? We have a SF/PF in Smoove... We have a C in Howard... Our targets are set on JJ for the SG...biggest need in a draft celebrated for HIGH QUALITY guards? Paul, Deron, Felton... We could have had one of those guys and none of them were considered head and shoulders above the other. We could have easily had Paul..

Paul and Deron were considered head and shoulders above Felton.

Now this team of Paul, JJ, Smoove, and Howard...lol Not sure they'd be in the lottery in 2006. But a few things to consider...and feel free to call this part of my speculation pure BS...lol BUT... Smoove and Howard are still raw and Woodson is still a crap coach. We're really only a couple of years into rebuilding so expectations aren't very high. Honestly, I don't think we could have landed a high pick in the 2006 draft...but talented teams have done worse. Look at Memphis (Gay, Mayo, Conley, Gasol)...

We might have had a chance at a 6th - 10th pick and IF we still had the rights to Harrington through 04/05...him + that pick...to move up? LOL...why are we even discussing this? If any of us had a time machine it'd be awesome. But we are digressing here. The core (minus Roy I will admit) would have been and should have been and could have been our likely choices in the drafts that build the team we have now. IF we had a management team that would pay attention to the Hawksquawk...because honestly...all I did was spell out the majority consensus in here over the past 5-6 years.

Tell me it wasn't.

As Harrington was an unrestricted free agent at the time of the draft, I somehow don't see us being able to move up in the draft with him.

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Not at all AHF. Rarely do I disagree with you, but this is a very easy scenario to me.

Dwight Howard:

Throwing out luck because there's no point in arguing that, but we shot ourselves in the foot in 2004. We fought for wins at the end of the season that pushed us down in the lottery. We should have tanked the season given that we were WELL out of playoff contention and had no intention of keeping any of those guys. HAD we done what we should have done, then we would have been right at the top of the draft...instead of picking 3 or 4 spots behind Orlando.

Contrary to how dominant he plays now, Dwight Howard was not at all a sure thing. He had no shot, could not hit free throws (still can't), had no post game, and was straight out of high school. All he had was size and athleticism. Contrasted to Okafor who was nearly every bit as big and active, less athletic, but a seasoned collegiate. There was no consensus. Moreover, Orlando was actively in trade talks. Had we landed the 2nd or 3rd, (like we should have if we let the season slide) we could have EASILY packaged that and moved up. And we would have considering the marketing impact a homegrown talent like that would have generated.

Next Josh Smith:

Nothing really to discuss here. The guy fell to 17, we had the pick. Done deal.

The 04/05 team:

Antoine Walker (trade bait), Al Harrington (big time trade bait), Boris Diaw (throw in trade bait) and a bunch of nobodies + Josh Smith (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots) and Dwight Howard (who can do nothing but dunk and block shots). I'm sorry, but that is a recipe for a bottom 4 team if I ever saw one. Even if we landed 5 - 10, we got the assets between that, protected future 1sts, and Walker, Harrington, and Diaw. Moving up to get Paul (that everyone thought was too short anyway) would have been easy and/or not necessary.

Marvin had a LOT of hype coming out. If I'm not mistaken, Charlotte and New Orleans tried everything in their power to move up to get him. They Bobcats didn't want to let go of that #13 and the Hornets knew he would be long gone. Had Charlotte or New Orleans landed #2, Marvin was gone. Which means Paul falls to 5 or 6. Seriously...Josh Smith and Howard with a team of nobodies and no point guard could have EASILY gotten us to Chris Paul and Deron Williams territory. Especially with guards like Felton and Webster hovering around there and TONS of talent still filling up the lottery.

Joe Johnson:

Sign his *ss to an offer sheet. Make Phoenix sweat and make a deal. Diaw and a future 1st should have shut them up. We might have even had Al Harrington to deal if we hadn't dealt him in 04 or 05 to move up. It might have taken him to move up in 04, but might not have been necessary. Still, this deal gets done because we're still considered a "lottery team" and nobody understands that CP3 is about to blow up.

PG - Paul, SG - JJ, SF - Smoove, C - Howard. In retrospect, it looks like fantasy. But...

Many on this board wanted Howard and wanted us to tank. We could have gotten him, he wasn't a sure thing and Orlando was more than willing to deal. Smoove and Howard would not have taken us anywhere (especially if we told Woody NOT to and if we dealt Harrington to move up). After we fail in 04/05, there is the PG we need. WHY NOT take him? We have a SF/PF in Smoove... We have a C in Howard... Our targets are set on JJ for the SG...biggest need in a draft celebrated for HIGH QUALITY guards? Paul, Deron, Felton... We could have had one of those guys and none of them were considered head and shoulders above the other. We could have easily had Paul..

Now this team of Paul, JJ, Smoove, and Howard...lol Not sure they'd be in the lottery in 2006. But a few things to consider...and feel free to call this part of my speculation pure BS...lol BUT... Smoove and Howard are still raw and Woodson is still a crap coach. We're really only a couple of years into rebuilding so expectations aren't very high. Honestly, I don't think we could have landed a high pick in the 2006 draft...but talented teams have done worse. Look at Memphis (Gay, Mayo, Conley, Gasol)...

We might have had a chance at a 6th - 10th pick and IF we still had the rights to Harrington through 04/05...him + that pick...to move up? LOL...why are we even discussing this? If any of us had a time machine it'd be awesome. But we are digressing here. The core (minus Roy I will admit) would have been and should have been and could have been our likely choices in the drafts that build the team we have now. IF we had a management team that would pay attention to the Hawksquawk...because honestly...all I did was spell out the majority consensus in here over the past 5-6 years.

Tell me it wasn't.

We like the sounds of this now but this would likely never happen. It involves too many what if's.

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