The Demise of the Hawks

[NineOhTheRino]

StatsCube: The Demise of the Hawks

BY

John from Sekou's Blog

One of this season’s lingering questions was brought to the surface again on Friday. And that question is: What the heck has happened to the Atlanta Hawks?

In the wake of getting drubbed by the Miami Heat, the Hawks stand at 39-30. On first glance, they’re pretty firmly entrenched in fifth place in the East, four games in the loss column behind the Orlando Magic and three games ahead of the Philadelphia 76ers. But the way they Hawks are playing, nothing but a quick first-round exit is guaranteed. Click to Continue Reading

Edited March 20, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[WraithSentinel]

This team has shown no desire,heart or will to win at all this year. It is like they finally wokeup and realize this is as good as they will be. They have no shot at winning the title or getting better. So they stopped trying altogether.

[Joker]

This team has shown no desire,heart or will to win at all this year. It is like they finally wokeup and realize this is as good as they will be. They have no shot at winning the title or getting better. So they stopped trying altogether.

They seen that awhile go before the season. Joe tries to change it but can't. Al always gives his effort and Josh isn't committed now that the team knows their destiny. I said it before, this team needs a talent infusion. You seen what an upgrade did in Hinrich, the team took a step back in a sense even though it's not all on Hinrich addition as it's on some systematic things. I must have been negged over 60 points when I said Sessions wouldn't help and is a scrub. We got a much better player at PG and now do you see my point about a talent infusion. This team can make a lateral or backward move. Not saying this will happen but Al Jefferson for Josh Smith will not improve this team. We are still one and done. Bogut for Smith would help but at the end of the day, only two players can create their shot, Joe and Jamal and we aren't anywhere near contention. This team needs a #1 option who's better than Joe, needs an elite playmaker, and it needs either a real center. I think Horford can be a #1 option with an elite PnR PG. I think Joe needs to be a Robin which he's great at. For crying out loud, he's the most doubled guard in the NBA. People love to hate but he's worth every penny for us. He's our most important player. To be honest, this team needs a superstar PG or C. It's that simple. No need to say more, all these marginal trades isn't changing the path for this team. One player is not at fault but if Atlanta was smart and did their hwk, they would have Deron or CP3 right now instead of Marvin.

[T21]

It's quite evident that the wheels have come off... our offense sucks and what's worse, it makes a huge impact on our D.

We have very emotional bunch and when our offense clicks well we play good D (go figure?), when we struggle on offense it also reflects on our D and we play without energy, passion...

LD has to go, he lost the team completely... I know it's not popular decision to sack the coach, but in order to gain some form, confidence and have any chance in Playoffs, it must be done.

[benhillboy]

The demise was official when LeBron joined our division. I'm sure the Heat are banking on the possible fact that they never have to worry about us as long as he's there and as long as our current style of business and play continue. He's arguably as valuable as our three best players combined. He's five times smarter than Josh, five times more skilled than Al, and led a team to the Finals that would've certainly been the worst league-wide if subbed for Joe. Oh, and there's another Hall of Fame, Finals MVP in his prime to just throw in there. We're cooked. We just will never be good enough to make noise in the playoffs without winning our division and the seeding and confidence it rewards unless we acquire Dwight, which is pretty much impossible. We just have to settle for beating poor teams, Portland, and rejoice over a Bulls-type win once a year. The curse of being a Hawks fan I tell you.

Edited March 20, 2011 by benhillboy

[CWebb]

You know it's easy to blame everybody when things go wrong. We are not done yet. We, as hawks fans, shouldn't do that.

LET'S GO HAWKS !

[Joker]

The demise was official when LeBron joined our division. I'm sure the Heat are banking on the possible fact that they never have to worry about us as long as he's there and as long as our current style of business and play continue. He's arguably as valuable as our three best players combined. He's five times smarter than Josh, five times more skilled than Al, and led a team to the Finals that would've certainly been the worst league-wide if subbed for Joe. Oh, and there's another Hall of Fame, Finals MVP in his prime to just throw in there. We're cooked. We just will never be good enough to make noise in the playoffs without winning our division and the seeding and confidence it rewards unless we acquire Dwight, which is pretty much impossible. We just have to settle for beating poor teams, Portland, and rejoice over a Bulls-type win once a year. The curse of being a Hawks fan I tell you.

I will be real, Miami is a true threat but they are flawed as s***. They have three Bat-mans mentally, it just will never truly work. What the Bulls had was amazing. They had a Batman in MJ, an elite Robin in Pippen, and they had an all star role player in Rodman and Horace Grant. They just had great pieces that fit which happen to be great players. I don't see this Miami team as untouchable, too much repetitiveness like the current Hawks just with more talent. They will win a title or two, but I can't see them being a dynasty. Lebron was right, his perfect running mate as a player would have been Joe Johnson. Derrick Rose was right, his would have been Joe Johnson. It's rare for Batman mentalities to play together for an extended period of time but they have three of them. I don't see it working out like they want it to. They Hawks have the pieces to be dominate with a superstar but without one and they are in bad roles, their lost.

Edited March 20, 2011 by nbasuperstar40

[Wretch]

Still watching. Still waiting. But unless something dramatic happens, I've already taken a side on this.

If we are destined to a miserable tailspin at the end of this season, I don't blame any of the players or LD. I blame Billy Knight. I really don't want to blame the ASG either, but it is their incompetence that has bled all over this thing from the basketball court to the legal court.

But in a nutshell, when we were in rebuild mode, we should have been more careful...and that's the bottom line. The collective intelligence in here could have (and did) make better decisions than the follks who got paid a sh!tload of money to screw up. We should have thrown the 03-04 season in the trash. BK should not have been allowed to try and build his all 6'-8" hybrid team. We should have gotten a coach like Rivers when we had a chance (and we had the chance). There's a lot of shoulda/woulda/couldas. But, We're suffering because the root of the problem has never been fixed - a mismanaged rebuild. We can patch it up and switch it around and tweak it, but the ceiling of this team is...well, I'm not going to say until the playoffs are over.

I'm hoping our boys find some chemistry when it counts.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Wretch

[TomSelleck]

But, We're suffering because the root of the problem has never been fixed - a mismanaged rebuild.

yup

[macdaddy]

Comparing last year to this year is just foolish though. I agree we have major problems right now. But we had major problems last year that were masked by the fact that Woody got great consistency by playing 6 guys 36+ minutes a night all season. We were highly ranked offenisvely because the ball rarely touched the hands of guys who weren't guards. This worked great for a turnover ratio and it racked up a lot of wins against teams that don't have ANY players as good as Joe and Jamal. Unfortunately you don't face those teams in the playoffs. Despite sweeping the Celtics (who lets face it were kind of coasting to the playoffs) we failed against the top teams most of the time not in spite of our highly ranked offense but because of it.

[Dejay]

Still watching. Still waiting. But unless something dramatic happens, I've already taken a side on this.

If we are destined to a miserable tailspin at the end of this season, I don't blame any of the players or LD. I blame Billy Knight. I really don't want to blame the ASG either, but it is their incompetence that has bled all over this thing from the basketball court to the legal court.

But in a nutshell, when we were in rebuild mode, we should have been more careful...and that's the bottom line. The collective intelligence in here could have (and did) make better decisions than the follks who got paid a sh!tload of money to screw up. We should have thrown the 03-04 season in the trash. BK should not have been allowed to try and build his all 6'-8" hybrid team. We should have gotten a coach like Rivers when we had a chance (and we had the chance). There's a lot of shoulda/woulda/couldas. But, We're suffering because the root of the problem has never been fixed - a mismanaged rebuild. We can patch it up and switch it around and tweak it, but the ceiling of this team is...well, I'm not going to say until the playoffs are over.

I'm hoping our boys find some chemistry when it counts.

Close the phone lines, we have a winner.

This is another sermon I've been preaching for years. How many times on this board have I talked about the Hawks one day having to pay the price for having BK run the show when he was clearly over his head? Sure, they improved over time but was THIS the reward we were looking forward to when they were losing 50+ games a year for nearly a decade?

I know it's revisionist's history but the fact that the ASG allowed BK to bomb not one, not two, but FOUR LOTTERY PICKS pretty much explains why they are in the middling position they are in right now. The reason why they currently sit with no first round pick next year goes back to the day BK fell in love with a guy who didn't even start in college, knowing that 1) competent point guards are much harder to find than small forwards, 2) Tyronn Lue and Royal Ivie are the point guards on the roster, and 3) all three points at the top of the draft are better than ones on said roster. Again, the resources spent on drafting Law, Teague, and Stoudamire, trading for Bibby, resigning Bibby, then being forced into a corner and having to make the move for Hinrich is what could've been used on a big man or more depth. Either would've made all the difference in the world come playoff time.

And you know the saddest part about this? I only described the impact of ONE blown pick; don't get me started on who should've been here instead of Childress and Shelden.

Does anyone on this forum think that we would be having these kinds of discussions if any combination of CP3, Monte Ellis, Milsap, Felton, Deron, Roy, Iguodala, Deng, Jefferson, et al were here? Do you think JJ would've had the leverage he had last summer to get $120M+ if someone like Ellis was there, waiting to take his spot? Do you think they would be in the bottom rung in attendance and overall national scope as they are right now had I, Ex, Diesel, Walter, GSUTeke, Gray Mule, Wretch, Sothron, or anyone else been in charge of the drafting during BK's tenure?

Sure, it can be argued that our team would have other flaws than the obvious ones they have right now. But I would've loved to have seen what those flaws were. So would the rest of the city...

[NineOhTheRino]

Rondo

That's the only pick I consider a screw up. BK had the consensus among fans and media with the rest.

Instead of always looking someone to blame why not put some heat on the underachieving players. I can't recall reading or hearing a story of these guy going above and beyond what's asked of them. BK did his job based on the information he had. How could he have predicted that every player he drafted in those years would have a piss poor work ethic on and off the court.

With that ASG (not Sund) replacing Woody with the guy that's essentially behind Woody's downfall was downright idiotic.

Edited March 21, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[AHF]

Rondo

That's the only pick I consider a screw up. BK had the consensus among fans and media with the rest.

How was Childress a consensus pick? Weren't Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala considered the favorites to land in those spots?

[NineOhTheRino]

How was Childress a consensus pick? Weren't Luol Deng and Andre Iguodala considered the favorites to land in those spots?

Childress fit what BK was trying to do. Say what you what but the man had a plan. I think he should have put more emphasis on intangibles but I'm not going to kill him for picking a player that he thought fit his plan of building a ATL's version of the Pistons. Why else would he have hired Woody? Sometimes we act like the man pulled names out of a hat on draft day.

[Dejay]

Childress fit what BK was trying to do. Say what you what but the man had a plan. I think he should have put more emphasis on intangibles but I'm not going to kill him for picking a player that he thought fit his plan of building a ATL's version of the Pistons. Why else would he have hired Woody? Sometimes we act like the man pulled names out of a hat on draft day.

Looking back at what he ended up bringing in on draft day, he might as well been using a dart board or pulling names out of Yosemite Sam's hat for all I care. I don't recall Childress or Shelden being some consensus pick at the time they were drafting. Not by the 'experts' and certainly not by the folks here. And as for Marvin, the three guys in the 'need' position of point guard were far better players than he was at the time. Unfortunately, this still holds true.

And yeah, he had a plan; a FAILED plan that should've been stopped long before Speedy Claxton was offered $25M to wear Armani suits.

[AHF]

Childress fit what BK was trying to do. Say what you what but the man had a plan. I think he should have put more emphasis on intangibles but I'm not going to kill him for picking a player that he thought fit his plan of building a ATL's version of the Pistons. Why else would he have hired Woody? Sometimes we act like the man pulled names out of a hat on draft day.

Shelden fit the 6'8'' plan, too. Both were picks that were considered reaches by the experts and that bucked popular opinion for who should have gone at that slot in the draft.

Marvin was obviously the biggest disaster for a pick once you start comparing against what we could have had but at least he was regarded by many experts as the most likely star of the draft (as ridiculous as that now sounds).

Dejay's comment seems appropriate:

Looking back at what he ended up bringing in on draft day, he might as well been using a dart board or pulling names out of Yosemite Sam's hat

[Diesel]

Without making this revisionist history, the truth is that the problems do start with BK...

I appreciate him having a plan, I can't understand how he carried out his plan with disregard to the situation.

Let's start with Diaw over Parker. I can let that pass.

I can give him a pass on Childress because Childress was a good college player and he got Smoove too.

Marvin the next year makes no sense.

Let's say you didn't like Deron's Shape. Paul was still miles ahead of Lue. Let's say you didn't like Paul's size. There was still Felton.

Then you have: Speedy Claxton.

Then you have: Shelden..

Shelden was forced. Atlanta was not going to let you pick Rudy gay. Brandon Roy had just as much a promise as you gave Shelden. IN fact, Joe's agent pretty much forced you to take Shelden as a Loyalty gift.

Then you have Horford and Acie...

All in all, our trips to the lottery have not been so good. 1 good player out of 5 trips.

We scramble well. Getting Joe, Getting Bibby. Good jobs. But with Flawed players.

The thing is that with the house that BK built, ASG was just not capable of tearing it down. It was flawed but it still gave glimmers of hope.

[exodus]

Childress fit what BK was trying to do. Say what you what but the man had a plan. I think he should have put more emphasis on intangibles but I'm not going to kill him for picking a player that he thought fit his plan of building a ATL's version of the Pistons. Why else would he have hired Woody? Sometimes we act like the man pulled names out of a hat on draft day.

But you said BK went with the media consensus picks. So what does "fit" have to do with anything? And what media outlet agreed with Shelden at 5?

If you rebuild through the draft you need to make your draft picks count. The blown top 6 picks from '04-'06 were too much to overcome.

Edited March 21, 2011 by exodus

[Dejay]

And that's my point. For all of the 50-loss seasons they had and multiple lottery picks, what do they have to show for it?

The bottom line is that we should be light years ahead of where we are right now. A 40-30 record is what we should've been expecting the year they backed in as the 8th seed and faced the Celtics. Who knows? Instead of facing them, they might have gone up against a lesser opponent and perhaps made it to the second round. That would've not only had given them some good momentum into the offseason but had gave free agents looking to get on a team on the upswing a chance to look here. Instead of the ASG milling the bargain bin for the Othello Hunters of the world, maybe, just maybe they would've been in line to bring in some REAL players. One can easily see a 3-8 win improvement in each of the last two seasons if the right guy was here pulling the strings. And even if they did fall short of the ECFs, what would've been more exciting for the fans to see; having Paul, Milsap, and Iguodala riding shotgun with JJ and Smith or what we have right now? Judging by the gate figures and multiple appearances on NBA-TV, the answer is clear. Crystal clear...

Edited March 21, 2011 by Dejay

[Buzzard]

Without making this revisionist history, the truth is that the problems do start with BK...

I appreciate him having a plan, I can't understand how he carried out his plan with disregard to the situation.

Let's start with Diaw over Parker. I can let that pass.

I can give him a pass on Childress because Childress was a good college player and he got Smoove too.

Marvin the next year makes no sense.

Let's say you didn't like Deron's Shape. Paul was still miles ahead of Lue. Let's say you didn't like Paul's size. There was still Felton.

Then you have: Speedy Claxton.

Then you have: Shelden..

Shelden was forced. Atlanta was not going to let you pick Rudy gay. Brandon Roy had just as much a promise as you gave Shelden. IN fact, Joe's agent pretty much forced you to take Shelden as a Loyalty gift.

Then you have Horford and Acie...

All in all, our trips to the lottery have not been so good. 1 good player out of 5 trips.

We scramble well. Getting Joe, Getting Bibby. Good jobs. But with Flawed players.

The thing is that with the house that BK built, ASG was just not capable of tearing it down. It was flawed but it still gave glimmers of hope.

You are giving BK a pass for every pick except Marvin, which makes no sense. Marvin was considered by most ( even our #1 antagonist Chad Ford ) to have the most potential upside of any player in the top five list of prospects. You cannot say that about any of his other lottery picks except that Horford had that after the top two picks had gone. Yet you think he gets a pass for everyone else. Anyone who makes 5 million dollars a year does not get a pass for getting one of five critical business decisions right. And if Smoove would not have dropped in his lap there is no guarantee we would have picked a suitable starter with that pick. In fact BKs draft trend points to another solid disappointment if the home grown player was already gone.

BK drafts sucked in no uncertain terms Diesel, and making excuses for Chilz, Acie, and Shelden is BS man. No excuses for BK, he was one of the top five worse draft day GMs in the league during his tenure with us. He got lucky with Horford and he got extremely lucky with Smoove. He picked Marvin for the same reason he picked those two, they were consensus type players. He showed no skill or hindsight with any of his lottery picks. In fact when he tried to use skill and hindsight, he picked players that could barely cut it as 12 or 13th players on someones bench ( Chilz, Shelden, Acie, Salim, Ivey, Solomon, Cenk etc...).

Edited March 21, 2011 by Buzzard