To the Joe Haters....

[99PROBL3MS]

This team without Joe Johnson and Josh.Smith....... I don't want to think about that.....

[Diesel]

I dont have a plan for a #1 option but while I think Joe is a good player he is no #1 option which is why I deem us to be screwed .

We have a team full of #2 and #3 options .

Where does this idea come that you need an superstar #1 option. Plenty of teams have won without a superstar #1 option. Celtics, Pistons, 76ers, Showtime Lakers. .. all these guys existed without having a true front man. Joe is what he is... 5 time allstar. Probably Best Hawk since Deke. The problem is that you guys have let his silence make you believe that he's not good. Anybody who is voted in by coaches 5 years in a row is pretty damn good. Anybody is an automatic double team most nights is pretty damn good.

Instead, you applaud Josh Smith who hits a wide open three and grabs his jersey and shows his heart... because he has .... Heart???

Cmon... give me a break.

Heart is not hittnig a big shot when you're wide open and the clock is winding down. Heart is the guy who goes 1 on 3 most of the night and still manages to get you 20 hard points. Heart is the guy who creates for everybody else on his team.

I laugh because you guys measure Joe with a Lebron ruler and say he don't measure up, he must go.. and then you talk about bringing in rookies and journeymen who won't do anything but help the rest of this team wallow in mediocrity until the window closes.

You need to learn what Building means.

[99PROBL3MS]

I agrees with Diesel bigtime. The days of "building" through the draft are virtually DEAD. In the modern day, FAs and trades are where it is happening. The kind of difference makers we are expecting to replace Joe with (monetarily) want to play where teams are already wining. Without Smoove and Joe, you would have to get extremely lucky uh the draft or be very bad for a very long time.

[MaceCase]

Actually, there are two problems with your conception.

First.. Joe didn't barely fill the role. Joe is a freaking 5 time allstar. Voted in by coaches and not fans. Moreover, his skill on the court has not diminished as some may say. Compare his playoffs this year to any other year as a Hawk? You will find that he hasn't had a better playoffs. You know the games that really count. Joe Showed up better in this past playoffs than he has ever as a Hawk.

Second. You put up a group of Streaky players. Non of those Jokers has shown consistency with their current team. Some have been traded. Maybe traded twice.. and are still on shaky ground.

The other thing that you did not state is that we don't need a #1 option. That's what you're saying. Which begs the question why are we getting rid of Joe again?

And again, Joe was and is being paid superstar money and not "good player' money. There is really at no point outside of maybe his first few years in Atlanta where he has managed to play above or even up to his big dollar contracts so his selections are nice and his overall play is good to have but at the expense of being unable to actually improve the team and on an ever increasing contract while his performance remains the same (hopefully)? Well that's not a worthwhile investment in my mind and I'll repeat once again, up until his contract year and the arrival of Nash, Joe had not demonstrated any ability to be even an efficient scoring option. He was a far less efficient shooter and scorer than all of those "streaky jokers" I mentioned but I guess one season before a max deal counts more for consistency than the entirety of the careers of all of these young players.

[mrhonline]

You obviously missed the last time

What does the last time have to do with the next time?

Are you saying that the Thunder shouldn't have started over because the Sonics sucked when Sund was there? Or that the Bulls shouldn't have rebuilt even though the last time they tried to do that they sucked at it (Chandler, Brand, Curry, etc.)? And so on...Of course, none of us want to see a middling GM like Sund do that rebuilding, but that isn't the only option.

Regardless, the team as currently constructed is neither good enough to win a championship nor intriguing enough to merit a superstar in a trade. Your only two options are playoff mediocrity or a risky restart. I understand why the current owners want that mediocrity, but why would a fan?

[NekiEcko]

And again, Joe was and is being paid superstar money and not "good player' money. There is really at no point outside of maybe his first few years in Atlanta where he has managed to play above or even up to his big dollar contracts so his selections are nice and his overall play is good to have but at the expense of being unable to actually improve the team and on an ever increasing contract while his performance remains the same (hopefully)? Well that's not a worthwhile investment in my mind and I'll repeat once again, up until his contract year and the arrival of Nash, Joe had not demonstrated any ability to be even an efficient scoring option. He was a far less efficient shooter and scorer than all of those "streaky jokers" I mentioned but I guess one season before a max deal counts more for consistency than the entirety of the careers of all of these young players.

I have to agree with CTC about this and I am going to added alittle bit more to this.

Also he hasnt demonstrated leadership abilities. When I was in the Navy, we had a Chain of Command, when the worker had to listen to the Leading Petty Officer and in return have to listen to the Leading Chief Petty Officer that was in charge of everybody. When I see the Hawks, I see all the Workers but no LPO, even know that we do have a LCPO (Drew) only some people would listen and other dont (ie. broken plays, stupid decisions, etc, etc), when that happens that LPO has come in and straight them out.

I dont see it in Joe at all. He might have all the abilities to be a good player but as long he doesnt have any leadership qualities (toughness as well), he will always be just a good player. He has to be that leader, speak up when Coach Drew does his thing, when Josh does some stupid, Joe has to be the one to tell him these things, that for Al as well plus being a mentor to Teague and Williams(if he isnt doing his wall flower thing).

[warcore]

I don't think there have been many people saying they want to trade Joe for a #1 option. I've heard a couple similar scenarios though:

1. Trading Joe to get rid of his contract and youth in return, and

2. Trading other pieces to get a #1 option to make Joe a robin to the batman (example: Smoove, Teague for CP3)

.... I just haven't really seen many posts suggesting to trade Joe for a superstar because most people understand we can't get fair value with his contract.

[Diesel]

What does the last time have to do with the next time?

Are you saying that the Thunder shouldn't have started over because the Sonics sucked when Sund was there? Or that the Bulls shouldn't have rebuilt even though the last time they tried to do that they sucked at it (Chandler, Brand, Curry, etc.)? And so on...Of course, none of us want to see a middling GM like Sund do that rebuilding, but that isn't the only option.

Regardless, the team as currently constructed is neither good enough to win a championship nor intriguing enough to merit a superstar in a trade. Your only two options are playoff mediocrity or a risky restart. I understand why the current owners want that mediocrity, but why would a fan?

No...

I'm saying don't look at being in the 2nd round of the playoffs with a young team like every team can do that.

I'm saying don't throw the baby out with the Bathwater.

I'm saying don't forget the 10 yrs we waited the last time we rebuilt.

I'm saying don't mistake something that takes a tweak or two for something that takes a rebuild.

Do you run to get a new engine everytime your car needs a tuneup?

Do you go to buy a new computer everytime your virus protection program says that you may have a virus?

Do you go out and find a new wife after you and your current wife have an argument?

Rebuilding would be a rash over reaction that is not guaranteed to do anything but prolong our championship hopes and probably lose in the process.

[Guest]

Jefferson?

Why should Hinrich and Zaza be labeled untouchable? Those guys are clearly movable, IMO. (All Hawks are movable but those two seem easily movable.)

I am still confused about Jefferson. Is that supposed to be a nickname for Jeff Teague?

[Diesel]

I am still confused about Jefferson. Is that supposed to be a nickname for Jeff Teague?

Yes.

Jefferson " BLINK" Teague to be specific.

[Crank]

Where does this idea come that you need an superstar #1 option. Plenty of teams have won without a superstar #1 option. Celtics, Pistons, 76ers, Showtime Lakers. .. all these guys existed without having a true front man. Joe is what he is... 5 time allstar. Probably Best Hawk since Deke. The problem is that you guys have let his silence make you believe that he's not good. Anybody who is voted in by coaches 5 years in a row is pretty damn good. Anybody is an automatic double team most nights is pretty damn good.

Instead, you applaud Josh Smith who hits a wide open three and grabs his jersey and shows his heart... because he has .... Heart???

Cmon... give me a break.

Heart is not hittnig a big shot when you're wide open and the clock is winding down. Heart is the guy who goes 1 on 3 most of the night and still manages to get you 20 hard points. Heart is the guy who creates for everybody else on his team.

I laugh because you guys measure Joe with a Lebron ruler and say he don't measure up, he must go.. and then you talk about bringing in rookies and journeymen who won't do anything but help the rest of this team wallow in mediocrity until the window closes.

You need to learn what Building means.

Are you seriously referencing teams 25-30 years ago ?

Cmon now you know I dont appluad josh I think I made it very clear that no one on this team should be untouchable . I was saying this last summer .

I dont measure Joe with a lebron ruler I measure him with a TITLE ruler and he simply doesnt measure up but neither does anyone else on this squad .

Now does that mean that I believe any of them suck ? heck no but I dont believe that any of our core players can lead us to a title from there current status on this team . You can try and spin that anyway you want but I doubt that you could find a nba exec that would is agree with me .

Our core needs to all be slide down in status but we simply dont have the capabilities to get a player good enough to do it so we are stuck .

Joe is the best hawk since Deke ....Did I miss something ? Did Deke bring us a title ? No he anchored a team that had a superstar on it to the finals though ........hmmm so much for that dont need a #1 superstar

The bottomline is that in todays Nba you have to have someone who garners a certain level of respect and we dont have that player until we get that player we dont go any further .

[thescout5]

I'd rather take a step back and build the team the right way instead of being knocked out each year with the teams potential of being knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round every year. I'd trade anyone with the right pieces coming back.

[Diesel]

I'd rather take a step back and build the team the right way instead of being knocked out each year with the teams potential of being knocked out in the 1st or 2nd round every year. I'd trade anyone with the right pieces coming back.

I heard that when we had Babcock and Lenny and the team that went to the second round was rebuilt after losing to NY in the playoffs. Well, it took us 10 years to get back to the playoffs. The problem is you believe that you're rebuilding with guys that know what they are doing. The draft if a crap shoot. Let me remind you. Under ASG.. 5 trips to the lottery and all we have to show for it is Horf and Underachieving Marvin.

If you just want to be a part of the excitement on draft night that's one thing... But let's fix what needs fixing and not think about throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

One has to ask themselves and remember this glaring issue though, what number option was Joe before he arrived in Atlanta? We paid a 4th option number 1 option money and he did his best to fill that role despite not touching elite superstar status and for that I'm sure all are grateful but the mistake that was made was to continue to pay him superstar money despite knowing that he will never achieve that status. My question is this, why couldn't we have repeated that same process? Why couldn't we have identified a Marcus Thornton, Nick Young, JR Smith, Wes Matthews, Arron Afflalo, Michael Beasley, etc. etc, etc.? All players with superior shot creating skills and talent that were traded for peanuts or will be available free agents. All players that are not considered #1 options currently but could develop into that role if given the same responsibility and confidence that Joe was. See the fallacy here is that you are trying to argue what top flight option was available instead of or for Joe when the reality is that through scouting, gut instinct, or plain dumb luck we could have rolled the dice and found a young player on the cusp of stardom similar to how we found Joe in the first place.

OK . . now ask yourself this question.

When has the ASG, or the Hawks for that matter, just lucked into finding a #1 option of that caliber . . even a young guy?

Do you really trust the same management that tried to sell guys like Josh Powell and Joe Smith as guys that we could count on, to make a savvy find to replace JJ?

I'll tell you exactly what the ASG would've done. They would've let JJ go, and signed Jamal Crawford to a 4 year - 60 million deal. This team would've lived and died by Jamal . . and we STILL wouldn't have a 2nd guy that could create his own shot, unless we decided to play and keep "he who's name shall not be mentioned".

It wouldn't have been no master plan to bring in a Nick Young, or JR Smith, or any of those guys you talked about. The guy would've been JAMAL. And he would've had no choice but to take all of the tough shots, because there would be no one on the team to take the tough shots.

So . . you would've had Jamal at 4 years - 60 million . . instead of JJ at 6 yrs - 123 million. LOL . . either way, we're still over the salary cap, or not enough below it to get an impact player, even if you took JJ's 15 million this year off the books.

JJ is unappreciated right now by 75% of the fan base, because he's not a superstar. But 10 years from now, JJ will be an undisputed top 5 Atlanta Hawk of all time. I think only Nique and John Drew have more All-Star appearances than JJ right now.

JJ may not be the "put you over the hump to win a title type #1 option", but he has been a very capable #1 option the past 5 years. What Drew needs to do, is instead of trying to get EVERYBODY open shots in his motion offense, he needs to design an offense that utilizes the offensive skills of his top 3 scorers ( JJ, Smith, Horford ). Getting Smith an open 20 foot jumper, or Marvin an open 3, or Josh Powell an open 15 footer should NOT be the focus of this offense.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Where does this idea come that you need an superstar #1 option. Plenty of teams have won without a superstar #1 option. Celtics, Pistons, 76ers, Showtime Lakers. .. all these guys existed without having a true front man. Joe is what he is... 5 time allstar. Probably Best Hawk since Deke. The problem is that you guys have let his silence make you believe that he's not good. Anybody who is voted in by coaches 5 years in a row is pretty damn good. Anybody is an automatic double team most nights is pretty damn good.

Instead, you applaud Josh Smith who hits a wide open three and grabs his jersey and shows his heart... because he has .... Heart???

Cmon... give me a break.

Heart is not hittnig a big shot when you're wide open and the clock is winding down. Heart is the guy who goes 1 on 3 most of the night and still manages to get you 20 hard points. Heart is the guy who creates for everybody else on his team.

I laugh because you guys measure Joe with a Lebron ruler and say he don't measure up, he must go.. and then you talk about bringing in rookies and journeymen who won't do anything but help the rest of this team wallow in mediocrity until the window closes.

You need to learn what Building means.

Early nomination for "Post of the Off-Season".

[Supporter]

Co sign north for dies nomination

[MaceCase]

OK . . now ask yourself this question.

When has the ASG, or the Hawks for that matter, just lucked into finding a #1 option of that caliber . . even a young guy?

Do you really trust the same management that tried to sell guys like Josh Powell and Joe Smith as guys that we could count on, to make a savvy find to replace JJ?

I'll tell you exactly what the ASG would've done. They would've let JJ go, and signed Jamal Crawford to a 4 year - 60 million deal. This team would've lived and died by Jamal . . and we STILL wouldn't have a 2nd guy that could create his own shot, unless we decided to play and keep "he who's name shall not be mentioned".

It wouldn't have been no master plan to bring in a Nick Young, or JR Smith, or any of those guys you talked about. The guy would've been JAMAL. And he would've had no choice but to take all of the tough shots, because there would be no one on the team to take the tough shots.

So . . you would've had Jamal at 4 years - 60 million . . instead of JJ at 6 yrs - 123 million. LOL . . either way, we're still over the salary cap, or not enough below it to get an impact player, even if you took JJ's 15 million this year off the books.

JJ is unappreciated right now by 75% of the fan base, because he's not a superstar. But 10 years from now, JJ will be an undisputed top 5 Atlanta Hawk of all time. I think only Nique and John Drew have more All-Star appearances than JJ right now.

JJ may not be the "put you over the hump to win a title type #1 option", but he has been a very capable #1 option the past 5 years. What Drew needs to do, is instead of trying to get EVERYBODY open shots in his motion offense, he needs to design an offense that utilizes the offensive skills of his top 3 scorers ( JJ, Smith, Horford ). Getting Smith an open 20 foot jumper, or Marvin an open 3, or Josh Powell an open 15 footer should NOT be the focus of this offense.

North, this entire post is steaming crap because it is one giant assumption trying to be passed off as fact. You telling me that you know for damn sure that Sund would of given Jamal a 60 mil contract to replace Joe? Cmooooooooooooooon man. Let me hold that crystal ball for my finals please, I'm sure it'll come in super handy. Chances are that the ASG would have given Jamal the same opportunity to earn a new contract as they, you know, actually did now, in actual reality, before they looked to resign him at whatever price and the reason why the ASG has had to sell the fanbase on signings such as Powell and Joe Smith is DUN DUN DUN!!! because they've been skirting the lux tax line and that's all they could afford. Shocking, I know.

Please go back and preface this post with a "fantasy scenario #1" disclaimer because you are not fooling anyone sensible with that nonsense. We had a rookie scorer in the stable that we traded away in namesake Jr, we have a sophomore that emerged as a good scorer and defender and I was able to name off the top of my head more than several young wings that are populating the league that will either be free agents or could be traded for yet you want to pretend as if your scenario is the most likely? Garbage.

And to answer the first question of your post.......uhm I'll take lucking into Joe Johnson for 300, Alex. Yea I think I should have some faith in the same management that brought us Joe Johnson in the first place to manage to replace him unless of course you forgot that glaring little historical tidbit.

[NineOhTheRino]

For me it's having no doubt that this team will never win a title with JJ. The Hawks will never be bad enough to get into the lottery and will never be good enough to get past LeBron James. I'm with mrhonline on this one. Time for a fresh start.

Edited May 27, 2011 by NineOhTheRino

[yungsta]

For me it's having no doubt that this team will never win a title with JJ. The Hawks will never be bad enough to get into the lottery and will never be good enough to get past LeBron James. I'm with mrhonline on this one. Time for a fresh start.

yea we are like the pacers. stuck in mediocrity forever unless we get rid of JJ lol. This whole group needs to go. These guys are just not competitors.

[NJHAWK]

We need more #1 options. Joe was one but he really seems on the decline. We need to have more #1 options like the Celtics did when they won the title. They had 3 #1 options before they showed their age this year.