9-2 without Horf.

[Diesel]

I know.. I know... look at the competition.

However, many of us thought that this team would collapse without Horf. That the 2 time allstar was everything. Horf has been replaced by Zaza and we are 9 and freakin 2 without him. If we make it through this hard Feb schedule with a winning record... We really have to start re-evaluating some things.

[Joker]

Before you go any further, don't turn this into a BS trade thread.

The Hawks have been playing great team defense in part to Josh, Jeff, and JJ.

[CWebb]

I'm neither a Horford fan, neither a hater, but I've always thought all the love he was getting from the media was crazy

[MaceCase]

Yes, part of that re-evaluation should include that MARVIN is untouchable. Heh heh heh, how bout them apples.

[Randy]

To be fair, isn't it really 9-3, since he didn't play all of the Indy game, which we lost. (I thought he went down in the first half.)

[terrell]

I'm neither a Horford fan, neither a hater, but I've always thought all the love he was getting from the media was crazy

Agreed. He's a good player, but nothing special imo. Btw, When was the last time we went 4-1 on the road with Al? You got it. Never. I'm beginning to think they like playing without him. Josh and Joe looked as focused as I've ever seen them.. Probably tired of all his whining about playing center, And reading about his father complaing and what not. And its not like we're missing his jumpshots and fadeways. Hell, Pachulia doesnt even need touches. Just rebound, play hard, and make em pay, when they come in the lane. If Al would do that, we'd be scary. But for some reason, the "Boss" has turned into a softy.

Yes, part of that re-evaluation should include that MARVIN is untouchable. Heh heh heh, how bout them apples.

I'm trying to figure out if you're serious or joking?

[Nicholasp27]

To be fair, isn't it really 9-3, since he didn't play all of the Indy game, which we lost. (I thought he went down in the first half.)

Yes

Horf played 6 mins and went down halfway through first quarter

Indy loss may not have happened if horf didn't get injured...he has historically owned that matchup

[MaceCase]

I'm trying to figure out if you're serious or joking?

No, I'm not joking at all. People want to give credit to Zaza replacing Al but no mention of Marv playing as good as or better than Joe and Josh? Please, if you're going to re-evaluate Al's importance over this stretch then you had damn better re-evaluate Marvin's importance. Can't play these "player x is worth this" games the way you want and ignore the way it's actually being played.

[Sothron]

It is remarkable we have a record this good without him but it also has to be pointed out who we have played in that stretch. The only way I'd move Al is for a true franchise center or a franchise point guard.

[NineOhTheRino]

Al's a good player, but...

It’s funny how the team plays better ball without their "heart and soul" Horford. Kind of reminds me of how the Falcons won more games after dumping the great pile jumper Kieth Brooking.

I don't blame message board people for overrating Al's importance. How can anyone judge him fairly when the media is always telling us how great he is? Again he’s a good player but he does not control whether this team sink or swim.

One thing I've learned is that the Atlanta media plays favorite! If they like the way a guy presents himself then they deem him the quintessential leader (heart and soul) of a team, but what's the truth?.

Truth is Teague and this bench (esp. Zaza) far outweighs anything the hawks could get from Horford. The local media has no clue since they don’t watch the games. They don’t know jack about T-Mac, Willie Green, Radman, and Ivan. This is a good TEAM and one player does not determine their fate!

Edited February 1, 2012 by NineOhTheRino

[Peoriabird]

No, I'm not joking at all. People want to give credit to Zaza replacing Al but no mention of Marv playing as good as or better than Joe and Josh? Please, if you're going to re-evaluate Al's importance over this stretch then you had damn better re-evaluate Marvin's importance. Can't play these "player x is worth this" games the way you want and ignore the way it's actually being played.

These guys can't do it!

Before you go any further, don't turn this into a BS trade thread.

The Hawks have been playing great team defense in part to Josh, Jeff, and JJ.

Here is the evidence! No mention of Marvin's defense and clutch 3point shooting!

[NineOhTheRino]

These guys can't do it! Here is the evidence! No mention of Marvin's defense and clutch 3point shooting!

Think it's a coincidence that as Teague improves so does Marvin?

[Sothron]

Al's a good player, but...

It’s funny how the team plays better ball without their "heart and soul" Horford. Kind of reminds me of how the Falcons won more games after dumping the great pile jumper Kieth Brooking.

I don't blame message board people for overrating Al's importance. How can anyone judge him fairly when the media is always telling us how great he is? Again he’s a good player but he does not control whether this team sink or swim.

One thing I've learned is that the Atlanta media plays favorite! If they like the way a guy presents himself then they deem him the quintessential leader (heart and soul) of a team, but what's the truth?.

Truth is Teague and this bench (esp. Zaza) far outweighs anything the hawks could get from Horford. The local media has no clue since they don’t watch the games. They don’t know jack about T-Mac, Willie Green, Radman, and Ivan. This is a good TEAM and one player does not determine their fate!

Laughable point about Keith Brooking. Guy is a Ring of Honor nominee in the waiting and was terrific for the Falcons. He played an entire season with a broken back and didn't complain at all about moving from one position to another even though it cost him Pro Bowls and a possible Hall of Fame career. Give me a team of "pile jumpers" like that any day of the week, twice on Sundays.

You seem to have some kind of homer goggles on about Teague. Yes, he's playing ok. That's about it. Ok. This team is winning because of Joe, Josh and the bench play. Teague isn't killing us but saying he's the reason we're winning while in your other posts you are clearly not giving Joe any credit is simply absurd.

[MaceCase]

Think it's a coincidence that as Teague improves so does Marvin?

Teague hasn't done much more than he did in the Chicago series and yet Marvin......has performed leapyears ahead of where he was in that series. I don't see the two being connected because Josh has stagnated and Joe has only returned to preinjury form. Doesn't really make sense that he's improving one guy to career bests while the others remain constant.

[Peoriabird]

Teague hasn't done much more than he did in the Chicago series and yet Marvin......has performed leapyears ahead of where he was in that series. I don't see the two being connected because Josh has stagnated and Joe has only returned to preinjury form. Doesn't really make sense that he's improving one guy to career bests while the others remain constant.

He's giving credit to the wrong point guard regarding Marvin success. Teague that should get the credit Marvin's success this year...It should be Nick Van Exel!

[Diesel]

The funny thing is that not many people want to put Joe and Deserves some credit in the same sentence.

Macase, you mean to tell me that you want to give Credit to Missing Marvin when Joe has been the one putting us in position to win? Honestly, Joe provides a lot of shade for these guys to work in. This stint without Horf only proves that. That's not to say that we don't need Horf or His production, but it is to say that Horf's effect on this team has been strongly overexaggerated.

[High5]

It's still way to early to draw any conclusions about Horford. We've played a super easy schedule combined with guys hitting jumpers at an unusually high rate. We've been embarrassed by 2 of the 3 (3 of 4 if you include Indiana) good teams we played. Portland sucks on the road fortunately. We do know that we have the deepest team and the best PG we've had in many years, though. February will speak volumes.

[Admin]

You seem to have some kind of homer goggles on about Teague. Yes, he's playing ok. That's about it. Ok. This team is winning because of Joe, Josh and the bench play. Teague isn't killing us but saying he's the reason we're winning while in your other posts you are clearly not giving Joe any credit is simply absurd.

Teague is playing "ok"??? The improved play from Teague and Marvin are the difference between our play this year and in years past, although our improved bench comes in just behind them. Check out this chart from the wagesofwins article I posted last night and tell me if this seems like the numbers of a guy who is only playing "ok".

<table border="0" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="0" id="tblMain"> <caption> 2011-2012 Hawks through January 30th 2012</caption> <tbody> <tr> <th> NAME</th> <th> POS</th> <th> GP</th> <th> MP</th> <th> WP48</th> <th> WINS</th> </tr> <tr> <td> Jeff Teague</td> <td> PG</td> <td> 21</td> <td> 712</td> <td> 0.168</td> <td> 2.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Marvin Williams</td> <td> SF</td> <td> 18</td> <td> 437</td> <td> 0.268</td> <td> 2.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Josh Smith</td> <td> PF</td> <td> 21</td> <td> 721</td> <td> 0.119</td> <td> 1.8</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Joe Johnson</td> <td> SF</td> <td> 21</td> <td> 764</td> <td> 0.105</td> <td> 1.7</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Tracy McGrady</td> <td> SG</td> <td> 17</td> <td> 328</td> <td> 0.218</td> <td> 1.5</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Al Horford</td> <td> C</td> <td> 11</td> <td> 348</td> <td> 0.197</td> <td> 1.4</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Zaza Pachulia</td> <td> C</td> <td> 21</td> <td> 445</td> <td> 0.128</td> <td> 1.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Vladimir Radmanovic</td> <td> PF</td> <td> 20</td> <td> 354</td> <td> 0.159</td> <td> 1.2</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Willie Green</td> <td> SG</td> <td> 21</td> <td> 331</td> <td> 0.079</td> <td> 0.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Ivan Johnson</td> <td> PF</td> <td> 17</td> <td> 239</td> <td> 0.053</td> <td> 0.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Jerry Stackhouse</td> <td> SG</td> <td> 8</td> <td> 43</td> <td> 0.289</td> <td> 0.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Kirk Hinrich</td> <td> PG</td> <td> 3</td> <td> 58</td> <td> 0.052</td> <td> 0.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Donald Sloan</td> <td> G</td> <td> 5</td> <td> 20</td> <td> 0.034</td> <td> 0.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Jannero Pargo</td> <td> PG</td> <td> 20</td> <td> 231</td> <td> -0.021</td> <td> -0.1</td> </tr> <tr> <td> Jason Collins</td> <td> C</td> <td> 12</td> <td> 135</td> <td> -0.074</td> <td> -0.2</td> </tr> </tbody></table>

[Peoriabird]

It's still way to early to draw any conclusions about Horford. We've played a super easy schedule combined with guys hitting jumpers at an unusually high rate. We've been embarrassed by 2 of the 3 (3 of 4 if you include Indiana) good teams we played. Portland sucks on the road fortunately. We do know that we have the deepest team and the best PG we've had in many years, though. February will speak volumes.

Yeah they know that they have to beat the Bulls, Heat, Sixers, Pacers, Thunder, and Clippers on back to back nights to win over our skeptical fan base. Anything short of 8-3 in February will probably bring out the "I told you so crowd" who will promptly start a multitude of trade X player treads because this team can't win with the current personnel.

[MaceCase]

Quit creating strawmen, Diesel. Did I demean Joe in any manner? No, so you can put that plate back in it's cupboard. Al went down, Joe has been pre-injury Joe, Josh has been same ole inconsistent Josh, Teague has been Chicago series Teague, even Zaza has only returned to the Zaza of the past yet the only components that have stepped up to fill that void that was made by Al have been the vast improvement from Marvin and the Bench as a collective from seasons past.

Rather simple to see that all else has remained the same but the two weakest parts of the roster have all of a sudden stepped up exponentially over this season so who should be getting the majority of credit for the record in Al's absensce? The better point to be made here is how much faith are you willing to put on Marvin and the bench continuing to play at this level to stupidly suggest trading Horf away over some misconception of other parts stepping up.