So Marvin wants Out?

[Plainview1981]

Marv is not a cancer he just doesn't wanna play on this garbage team

who can blame him

He was picked in the top 3 and yet he only averages 9/5. Nuff said.

[Plainview1981]

So it's Marvin's fault that the Hawks drafted him at #2? It's Marvin's fault that the Hawks gave him his most recent contract? And God forbid anyone who's been in their job for 6 years and wants to try and become a bigger part of their organization actually says something about it and tries to do it. Damn Marvin is just an awful, awful human being isn't he.

Maybe if Marvin was more skilled he would have more plays ran for him.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Hotlanta1981

[Admin]

It is Marvin's fault for not realizing his potential.

His potential, or the potential that was projected on him? How would anyone know if he actually has reached his potential or not?

Is is Marvin's fault for spending offseasons playing Xbox instead of improving his game.

That doesn't even deserve a response.

It is Marvin's fault for timidly accepting being a forgotten man on offense.

it is Marvin's fault for not being more vocal as a veteran player and supposed leader.

How do we know whether Marvin has been vocal or not? Are any of us in the locker room? At practice? Or do you mean he should be more vocal to the press, which is something that he's partially being skewered for in this thread. I find that to be a bit ironic.

It is Marvin's fault for letting it get out he wants out of Atlanta and becoming a negative instead of a positive.

Josh and Joe have both said negative things about Atlanta and talked about leaving and Josh even signed a contract with another team as a FA so are they negatives as well?

No one can blame him for being drafted #2 and for getting whatever the Hawks thought he was worth in terms of a contract extension. But it is absolutely on his shoulders for every item on my list above. That's on him. He is absolutely held accountable for those things. When you take those things into account and have him asking for a trade, I'm sorry, the temerity of it is just unreal.

I've already responded to this part throughout above but the bottom line is that Marvin has been a quiet guy who has gone about his business and done what the team asked him to do without complaining about it, played excellent defense, for the most part taken shots when he's gotten them, and he's been constantly scrutinized by the fans and non-fans as being the guy taken ahead of Deron and Paul and he's done all of that with as much class as anyone who's played for this team. It's a shame that Marvin has to take so much heat for other people mis-judging his potential so badly and while I do think that he's just about reached his peak ability I hope that Marvin does get traded and goes on to prove so many of you wrong but if he doesn't get any better I'm sure he'll continue to go about being the best Marvin he's capable of being on and off the court and his teammates will love him for it.

Maybe if Marvin was more skilled he would have more plays ran for him.

I'm sure that he would ... the problem is that he's not that skilled and yet people still look at him like he is. And even with his limitations he's proved over the past couple of years that when he gets as many shots as JJ he outproduces him and his contract is a massive bargain in comparison.

[Plainview1981]

His potential, or the potential that was projected on him? How would anyone know if he actually has reached his potential or not?

That doesn't even deserve a response.

How do we know whether Marvin has been vocal or not? Are any of us in the locker room? At practice? Or do you mean he should be more vocal to the press, which is something that he's partially being skewered for in this thread. I find that to be a bit ironic.

Josh and Joe have both said negative things about Atlanta and talked about leaving and Josh even signed a contract with another team as a FA so are they negatives as well?

I've already responded to this part throughout above but the bottom line is that Marvin has been a quiet guy who has gone about his business and done what the team asked him to do without complaining about it, played excellent defense, for the most part taken shots when he's gotten them, and he's been constantly scrutinized by the fans and non-fans as being the guy taken ahead of Deron and Paul and he's done all of that with as much class as anyone who's played for this team. It's a shame that Marvin has to take so much heat for other people mis-judging his potential so badly and while I do think that he's just about reached his peak ability I hope that Marvin does get traded and goes on to prove so many of you wrong but if he doesn't get any better I'm sure he'll continue to go about being the best Marvin he's capable of being on and off the court and his teammates will love him for it.

I'm sure that he would ... the problem is that he's not that skilled and yet people still look at him like he is. And even with his limitations he's proved over the past couple of years that when he gets as many shots as JJ he outproduces him and his contract is a massive bargain in comparison.

Marvin almost never has more than 2 decent games in a row. As critical as I am of JJ, Marvin has never and never will be as good as JJ has been. Marvin is really productive in about 2 or 3 out of every 10 games.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Hotlanta1981

[Diesel]

So it's Marvin's fault that the Hawks drafted him at #2? It's Marvin's fault that the Hawks gave him his most recent contract? And God forbid anyone who's been in their job for 6 years and wants to try and become a bigger part of their organization actually says something about it and tries to do it. Damn Marvin is just an awful, awful human being isn't he.

Marvin is at fault for always being out of shape. Being an Ingrate. And half assing until it's his contract year. It's clearly BK's fault that he is here but Marvin doesn't go away innocently. Marvin doesn't play up to his potential because Marvin doesn't give it his all until it's money on the line. That my friend is a cancer.

[Sothron]

His potential, or the potential that was projected on him? How would anyone know if he actually has reached his potential or not?

That doesn't even deserve a response.

How do we know whether Marvin has been vocal or not? Are any of us in the locker room? At practice? Or do you mean he should be more vocal to the press, which is something that he's partially being skewered for in this thread. I find that to be a bit ironic.

Josh and Joe have both said negative things about Atlanta and talked about leaving and Josh even signed a contract with another team as a FA so are they negatives as well?

I've already responded to this part throughout above but the bottom line is that Marvin has been a quiet guy who has gone about his business and done what the team asked him to do without complaining about it, played excellent defense, for the most part taken shots when he's gotten them, and he's been constantly scrutinized by the fans and non-fans as being the guy taken ahead of Deron and Paul and he's done all of that with as much class as anyone who's played for this team. It's a shame that Marvin has to take so much heat for other people mis-judging his potential so badly and while I do think that he's just about reached his peak ability I hope that Marvin does get traded and goes on to prove so many of you wrong but if he doesn't get any better I'm sure he'll continue to go about being the best Marvin he's capable of being on and off the court and his teammates will love him for it.

I'm sure that he would ... the problem is that he's not that skilled and yet people still look at him like he is. And even with his limitations he's proved over the past couple of years that when he gets as many shots as JJ he outproduces him and his contract is a massive bargain in comparison.

Marvin had, and has, potential to be a very good player in the NBA. There is no doubt in my mind if the light switched on his head and he started demanding the ball and being a team leader he'd see an immediate increase in production. I've said on record for years now he was better off being traded to another franchise where the ghosts of Chris Paul and Deron Williams wouldn't hang over him. He also would have a chance of being more than a fourth option on offense.

That is what so maddening about the guy. He CAN score, he CAN contribute more and yet he refuses to do so. I've never seen a guy with a game that could easily translate to 17-20 a night with 6-7 boards and 2-4 assists and yet refuse to do so. That is entirely on him. You may not like people taking him to task for admitting in several interviews he spends offseasons playing Xbox and not working on his game but that is the reality of the situation. Just like how you don't hear anyone ever talking about him being a vocal leader either in games or in practice or even on team flights.

He should be an experienced veteran leader at this point whose grown into his prime and yet he has refused to do that. Some people can say he never had that ability but I flat out don't believe that for a second. I've seen every game he's had and he's always had those flashes where he stood up and did well and then he just went right back into his cave. That is on him. There's no apologists that can make that go away.

As for his asking for a trade versus Joe and Josh that is apples and oranges. I never remember Joe asking for a trade and Josh was literally begging the Hawks to give him an offer as a RFA. You can't hold it against him that Memphis finally signed him to a deal and the Hawks waited until the last minute to match it. That has nothing to do with an in season trade demand.

[MoBetta]

Did I type Black I meant blame lol

[Admin]

Marvin almost never has more than 2 decent games in a row. As critical as I am of JJ, Marvin has never and never will be as good as JJ has been.

I don't disagree with that and perhaps I should have been more clear in that I don't think they are even close to equals as players. My only point is that in our offense if he were to get 2-3 more shots a game instead of JJ and then 2-3 more shots a game instead of Josh you'd see a big improvement in his scoring. Hell just take away all of Josh's long jumpers and give them to Marvin and I guarantee he'd shoot at least 10% better.

Look at these numbers:

Shot	aFGA		Att		eFG%	Ast'd	Blk'd	 Pts		PPFGA

Jump	 5.2		67%		.493	  83%	  1%	 5.2		1.0

Jump	 8.9		64%		.401	  82%	  2%	 7.1		0.8

Jump	14.3		89%		.467	 47%	  2%	13.3		0.9


Att. = % of players shots that are considered to be jumpshots

aFGA = Total FGA / Att % (gives us the number of FGA that are considered to be jumpshots)

PPFGA = Pts / FGA (shows how many points per jumpshot FGA each player gets)


Player 1 is Marvin, 2 is Josh and 3 is JJ.

[/code]


Looking at those numbers, which player should be taking the most jumpshots?  Granted you can't factor in the difficulty of JJ's jumpshots since his are usually more contested than either Josh or Marvin but you can definitely say that Marvin's jumpshots are easily as contested as Josh's and likely much more so.

Marvin had, and has, potential to be a very good player in the NBA. There is no doubt in my mind if the light switched on his head and he started demanding the ball and being a team leader he'd see an immediate increase in production. I've said on record for years now he was better off being traded to another franchise where the ghosts of Chris Paul and Deron Williams wouldn't hang over him. He also would have a chance of being more than a fourth option on offense.


That is what so maddening about the guy. He CAN score, he CAN contribute more and yet he refuses to do so. I've never seen a guy with a game that could easily translate to 17-20 a night with 6-7 boards and 2-4 assists and yet refuse to do so. That is entirely on him. You may not like people taking him to task for admitting in several interviews he spends offseasons playing Xbox and not working on his game but that is the reality of the situation. Just like how you don't hear anyone ever talking about him being a vocal leader either in games or in practice or even on team flights.


He should be an experienced veteran leader at this point whose grown into his prime and yet he has refused to do that. Some people can say he never had that ability but I flat out don't believe that for a second. I've seen every game he's had and he's always had those flashes where he stood up and did well and then he just went right back into his cave. That is on him. There's no apologists that can make that go away.


As for his asking for a trade versus Joe and Josh that is apples and oranges. I never remember Joe asking for a trade and Josh was literally begging the Hawks to give him an offer as a RFA. You can't hold it against him that Memphis finally signed him to a deal and the Hawks waited until the last minute to match it. That has nothing to do with an in season trade demand.



Again though you're projecting what YOU THINK Marvin can do, not what he actually can do.  The guy is extremely limited with his dribbling skills, he doesn't have much elevation and he's clumsy around the basket so scoring in there will always be hit and miss and he'll never be able to take anyone off the dribble on a routine basis.  At best he could increase his scoring by getting more jumpshots but I guarantee you that if there were any chance that he could get more jumpshots within the flow of the offense he would take them, but unfortunately you have JJ and Josh taking a lot more of them, even though they are less efficient.


Please show me 1 example where he's said that he spends his offseason playing XBox and not working on his game. If you can show me 1 example then I'll concede my entire argument to you.  Otherwise I'm entirely confident that Marvin works on his game just as much as the vast majority of NBA players do and probably as much as any Hawk player does.

[Wurider05]

Mark my words. He goes somewhere with a real coach and this dude will produce. That can be said for Smoove as well. Marvin and Smoove have been the victims of bad coaching.

Think about it he wants to be in a situation where his usage increases. That speaks volumes right there.

Coach of the year Tom Tibbedeau stated that Marvin Williams was the most underrated player in the NBA. You think that doesn't mean something? Man I hope we get a good trade for him but at the same time my gut is telling me that we are going to come away looking stupid.

Edited February 21, 2012 by Wurider05

[hawkrule152]

Im not a marvin fan by any means. But in his 3rd season he was very productive for us scoring 15ppg and grabbin 6 boards.. This was also the yr of his best shooting %, but coaching decided to make him less a part of the offence every yr.. I dont blame him for wanting out, cause ive been saying it all year he has to be upset with his touches. Im just pissed we think he is the only problem with this team.. This team is TERRIBLE ALL TOGETHER.

[AHF]

Dolfan - I think you are fighting a losing battle defending Marvin. His behavior on the court has been, at best, too passive and at worst he hasn't cared enough. Either way, it amounts to him accepting a non-impact role with the team. He clearly doesn't have the desire to succeed that a lot of solid players have. Someone like Bruce Bowen doesn't have nearly his physical skills or even his shooting form but clawed his way to a very significant, impact role as a supporting player in his prime. Marvin drifts on offense and lets the game pass him by far too often for his talent. I agree with everyone who is offended by this getting out there and if we can get reasonable value for him I would definitely pull the trigger. I would even trade him at a loss at this point to shake this team up some. If a team like the T-Wolves wants a veteran SF with a future in Marvin, I would start looking at their assets immediately.

[Admin]

Dolfan - I think you are fighting a losing battle defending Marvin. His behavior on the court has been, at best, too passive and at worst he hasn't cared enough. Either way, it amounts to him accepting a non-impact role with the team. He clearly doesn't have the desire to succeed that a lot of solid players have. Someone like Bruce Bowen doesn't have nearly his physical skills or even his shooting form but clawed his way to a very significant, impact role as a supporting player in his prime. Marvin drifts on offense and lets the game pass him by far too often for his talent. I agree with everyone who is offended by this getting out there and if we can get reasonable value for him I would definitely pull the trigger. I would even trade him at a loss at this point to shake this team up some. If a team like the T-Wolves wants a veteran SF with a future in Marvin, I would start looking at their assets immediately.

I don't disagree that Marvin is passive and floats around on the court too much but I absolutely disagree with those that say Marvin doesn't care. I honestly believe that he's progressively become less interested in being a part of the offense because for his entire career the offense has allowed guys who are less efficient shooters than him to shoot to their hearts content without any consequences. I'm sure that many here can relate to how they feel about putting in maximum effort at work when they see what others are allowed to get away with or seeing others who are less qualified promoted ahead of them. I also have no problem with this getting out there and especially not if it forces management to shake the team up.

[Cthulhu]

Marvin's game is weak. He has been a HUGE letdown for the Hawks.

[Wurider05]

I don't disagree that Marvin is passive and floats around on the court too much but I absolutely disagree with those that say Marvin doesn't care. I honestly believe that he's progressively become less interested in being a part of the offense because for his entire career the offense has allowed guys who are less efficient shooters than him to shoot to their hearts content without any consequences. I'm sure that many here can relate to how they feel about putting in maximum effort at work when they see what others are allowed to get away with or seeing others who are less qualified promoted ahead of them. I also have no problem with this getting out there and especially not if it forces management to shake the team up.

That is absolutely right. Nothing else can be said.

[BrazilianHawk]

I think that the blame for players acting like that has got to be put on LD first and foremost. The man has no clue at all, his substitution patterns look even worse than Woody's.

That said, if Marv wants to go, let him go, just try to get something useful back. I'd rather see a coaching change, but that's not going to happen, so what we need right now is disciplined players. I'd pack the Birdbrain and Marvin and try a trade with the Lakers.

Edited February 21, 2012 by BrazilianHawk

[HawksFan87]

Yes, lets blame everyone but marvin for his shortcomings.

[AHF]

I don't disagree that Marvin is passive and floats around on the court too much but I absolutely disagree with those that say Marvin doesn't care. I honestly believe that he's progressively become less interested in being a part of the offense because for his entire career the offense has allowed guys who are less efficient shooters than him to shoot to their hearts content without any consequences. I'm sure that many here can relate to how they feel about putting in maximum effort at work when they see what others are allowed to get away with or seeing others who are less qualified promoted ahead of them. I also have no problem with this getting out there and especially not if it forces management to shake the team up.

He has never stepped up and demanded that he get the ball over less efficient shooters. He has been a more efficient scorer than Josh Smith and Joe Johnson every single season for the last 5 years. He has never once stepped up and asserted himself to improve this team in 5 years and has just meekly accepted that he will drift on the floor into irrelevance.

That isn't good enough and he deserves to carry a large part of the blame for that even if you take out of the picture the fact that he is the highly compensated former #2 pick. His passiveness is his greatest liability.

It is incredible that he wants to be traded before he will step up and ask to do more.

Edited February 21, 2012 by AHF

[Admin]

Yes, lets blame everyone but marvin for his shortcomings.

We're supposed to do that with Josh so why not with Marvin?

[MoBetta]

I think like someone else stated that Coaching is the real problem. I've watched BBALL for a long time and I look at the Hawks Offense and Im like wtf are they doing. Just standing around looking confused. Its horrible.

[Colin]

To be honest, I still like Marvin. While I am frustrated that he misses so many easy layups, his three-point stroke is looking great this season, and his defense has CONSISTENTLY limited opposing 2s and 3s to near the league-low averages in PER. I am also not one of the people who constantly blame him for being picked #2, it wasn't his choice, and it isn't like he plays poorly on purpose. I don't doubt his effort and commitment (after all, he improved his shot A TON), I just feel as though he doesn't focus as much as he should sometimes.

He would be ideal off the bench at the 3, but we pay him starters money. That being said however, he is always the 4th or 5th option on offense, and it is hard to produce that way unless you take advantage of all your opportunities. He misses too many baskets close to the rim to to be as efficient as possible.

I didn't read the previous two pages, is there proof that Marvin really asked for a trade, or could this just be an attention grabbing headline for the journalist? If we move Marvin, we need to move Hinrich as well, that is all I ask.