So Marvin wants Out?

[Diesel]

You can call Marvin a bust, you can say he's overpaid, but calling him a cancer (particularly the cancer of this team) is insane. We all know you dislike Marvin and you always jump at the opportunity to put him down, but I thought you were better than that.

Anyway, it's sad the Hawks haven't had a coach capable of maturing and harnessing all the talent we've had in the last 8 years. We'll probably never see consistently what Josh, Marvin, Teague, and Horford are capable of.

This is the cancerous part of Marvin. The cancer is that it's always somebody else's fault.

In that time that LD has been coach, Josh has stepped up to All Star Level. Teague stepped up. Even Zaza has stepped up. However, it's now LD's fault that Marvin is not maturing. At what point do you look at the drifter and say, you know, maybe it's his fault. We have gone down the line pointing the finger at players and coaches saying that they were hindering Marvin. From AL Harrington to TMac.. we have gone down the line.. but the one thing is still constant.. regardless of who we move, who we trade, who we do "addition by subtraction" and hope that Marvin steps into the role, he NEVER does. That's cancerous if you ask me. We have torn down this team twice and threw over 50 Million dollars at Marvin... When does our insanity end?

[Joker]

Marvin is not a cancer. We don't have a cancer, our style of play generally doesn't allow for one to exist.

Marvin is much better this year than he was last. More so than Josh, Jeff, and Zaza. Jeff is not even any good. Dude you are reaching to the sky like you normally do when Marvin name comes up.

[AHF]

Just curious but where did you get those numbers? Is there a site that lets you filter stats like that or did you manually pull them up?

The low tech manual approach from basketball reference.

[Joker]

Marvin is better than what some of you guys think. You might not care right now but you trade Marvin and this team really takes a step back. It might not show in the regular season but we will feel it in the playoffs.

[FutureGM]

Trade Marvin for a bag of chips!!!!

[Guest]

Most do not like Marvin because of where he was selected (not his fault), or because he isn't aggressive or because he is awkard, or he hasn't reached the potential base on his projections, that is understandable - but this whole cancer thing is ridiculous or maybe I don't understand the definition. IMHO a "cancer" is someone who is devisive on and off the court, in the locker room, hard to control, outburst at coaches, a me first player selfish player who is a to detriment to the team and just a real overall bad attitude. That is certainly not Marvin.

[High5]

This is the cancerous part of Marvin. The cancer is that it's always somebody else's fault.

In that time that LD has been coach, Josh has stepped up to All Star Level. Teague stepped up. Even Zaza has stepped up. However, it's now LD's fault that Marvin is not maturing. At what point do you look at the drifter and say, you know, maybe it's his fault. We have gone down the line pointing the finger at players and coaches saying that they were hindering Marvin. From AL Harrington to TMac.. we have gone down the line.. but the one thing is still constant.. regardless of who we move, who we trade, who we do "addition by subtraction" and hope that Marvin steps into the role, he NEVER does. That's cancerous if you ask me. We have torn down this team twice and threw over 50 Million dollars at Marvin... When does our insanity end?

When does YOUR insanity end? You live in a fantasy world where everyone idolizes Marvin Williams and you're the only one who knows the truth. Just because we're not zealots casting down the plague that is Marvin Williams with every post doesn't mean we're absolving him of all blame. We're just open-minded enough to acknowledge the other factors as well. This franchise is jacked up from top to bottom, with or without Marvin.

And how has Josh stepped up under Drew? His best year was Woody's last. His efficiency is plummeting.

[Diesel]

Most do not like Marvin because of where he was selected (not his fault), or because he isn't aggressive or because he is awkard, or he hasn't reached the potential base on his projections, that is understandable - but this whole cancer thing is ridiculous or maybe I don't understand the definition. IMHO a "cancer" is someone who is devisive on and off the court, in the locker room, hard to control, outburst at coaches, a me first player selfish player who is a to detriment to the team and just a real overall bad attitude. That is certainly not Marvin.

I'm not saying Marvin is divisive on purpose. I believe that Marvin's presence causes problems and always have been a sore point for this franchise. Things that are his fault. His attitude of ingratefulness. His attitude that he is owed something. His laziness. His failure to prepare himself for this career.

Let's ask the question... How many of you if you were paid 50 Million dollars to do your job would go out and find ways to be an asset. Would you go to the workshops that teach you how to do your job better? Would you handle your job with excellence? Would you stay late working even when you don't have to?

There is a formula for becoming a superstar but the main ingredient is hard work. Marvin has never sought to work hard. Other guys are working hard in the summer. Marvin is pursuing leisurely activities. He always comes back out of shape. Josh came back 30 lbs lighter. Joe worked out with Durant most of the summer. What about Marvin? until he had the surgery.. nothing.

And that's the norm for him. At the most, he plays a pick up game. Assistant coaches have to call him to tell him to practice.

That's shameful.

So, now imagine that you're working on the job. You're making 50 million, another guy next to you is making 50 million. You're busting your *ss every year to get better. This guy comes to work, then goes home promptly. When you look over your effort, your hard work is paid off. The other guy makes 50 million and he doesn't do jack. How do you feel? What if you make less than him? Less than him is where Tmac was when he complained. When I read Tmac's complaint, it felt like he was saying, I know I'm better than Marvin but coach is treating me like garbage.

[thecampster]

Here is Marvin's production in games missed by Josh Smith from the fall of 2008 through the present:

November 9, 2008 - 14 points, 7 rebounds

November 11, 2008 - 13 points, 4 rebounds

November 12, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

November 14, 2008 - 21 points, 4 rebounds

November 15, 2008 - 14 points, 6 rebounds

November 18, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

November 19, 2008 - 21 points, 14 rebounds

November 21, 2008 - 22 points, 10 rebounds

November 22, 2008 - 11 points, 7 rebounds

November 26, 2008 - 18 points, 5 rebounds

November 28, 2008 - 10 points, 7 rebounds

November 29, 2008 - 14 points, 4 rebounds

February 25, 2009 - 31 points, 7 rebounds

April 14, 2010 - 8 points, 4 rebounds

March 2, 2011 - 10 points, 4 rebounds

March 4, 2011 - 8 points, 8 rebounds

April 5, 2011 - 8 points, 3 rebounds

April 8, 2011 - 8 points, 1 rebound

April 9, 2011 - 8 points, 4 rebounds

Total 19 games

20/8 Games - 2 of 19 = 10.5%

Average 14 ppg, 5.6 rpg

Those rebounding numbers in particular are not exactly an impressive job of picking up the slack with Josh's rebounding out of the picture. I don't buy Marvin as a 4 because of his weakness on the boards.

How about a "when Joe's been out". I think you'll find the numbers better.

[thecampster]

How about a "when Joe's been out". I think you'll find the numbers better.

I stand corrected. Instead what you find is wild inconsistency

13.11 ppg

4.37 rbg

Edited February 22, 2012 by thecampster

[Guest]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/g207ud

The #Hawks just landed in NYC and had a convo with a very disappointed Marvin Williams, who while attending the funeral of a family friend, had to hear about his "reported" trade request. He vehemently denies ever asking for a trade and said, "you know that's not me"

Welp, I thought it was this thread I responded to hearing these rumors and said the source was weak so don't buy it. Turns out it was a different thread, but man this board gets their panties in a bunch over a false rumor. Thanks for the link GT.

[Admin]

The low tech manual approach from basketball reference.

Gotcha ... was hoping there was a simpler method. Oh well thanks for the info :kickcan:

[DJlaysitup]

I wouldn't call Marvin a cancer so much...that is unfair...

Marvin is simply a bust. He has gone from "unlimited potential" and "Worthy with a jumper" down through all the ranks of tags to a guy who simply doesn't deserve to be starting on an NBA team.

If we have to use the "cancer" terminology let's at least be fair to Marvin. He is not an aggressive "J.R. Rider" type cancer that kills you fast. I would compare him to prostate cancer. It's right there in your bowels but it doesn't do anything much for years. Eventually it might kill you - but more often than not something else will first.

Edited February 22, 2012 by DJlaysitup

[Joker]

Marvin still shows flashes of Worthy with a jumper.

[Sothron]

While I'm glad that Marvin apparently did not ask for a trade all the other criticisms about him still stand.

[AHF]

While I'm glad that Marvin apparently did not ask for a trade all the other criticisms about him still stand.

That is where I am as well. It is disconcerting that someone would pull this while he is at a funeral.

[Randy]

No matter what the truth is, or not, best thing for both the Hawks and Marvin would be a trade. He's always going to be a bust here because he's not Chris Paul or Deron Williams. Its that simple. He goes somewhere else, maybe he does better, maybe not, but a change of address would do him good. As for the Hawks, they would need to get somone they need.

One big question is this - unless they trade for a guy at the same position who starts in Marvin's place? T-Mac- complains about minutes, but can't play that many every night? Radmo? Joe?

[Plainview1981]

I don't disagree with that and perhaps I should have been more clear in that I don't think they are even close to equals as players. My only point is that in our offense if he were to get 2-3 more shots a game instead of JJ and then 2-3 more shots a game instead of Josh you'd see a big improvement in his scoring. Hell just take away all of Josh's long jumpers and give them to Marvin and I guarantee he'd shoot at least 10% better.

Look at these numbers:

Shot	aFGA		Att		eFG%	Ast'd	Blk'd	 Pts		PPFGA

Jump	 5.2		67%		.493	  83%	  1%	 5.2		1.0

Jump	 8.9		64%		.401	  82%	  2%	 7.1		0.8

Jump	14.3		89%		.467	 47%	  2%	13.3		0.9


Att. = % of players shots that are considered to be jumpshots

aFGA = Total FGA / Att % (gives us the number of FGA that are considered to be jumpshots)

PPFGA = Pts / FGA (shows how many points per jumpshot FGA each player gets)


Player 1 is Marvin, 2 is Josh and 3 is JJ.

[/code]


Looking at those numbers, which player should be taking the most jumpshots?  Granted you can't factor in the difficulty of JJ's jumpshots since his are usually more contested than either Josh or Marvin but you can definitely say that Marvin's jumpshots are easily as contested as Josh's and likely much more so.




Again though you're projecting what YOU THINK Marvin can do, not what he actually can do.  The guy is extremely limited with his dribbling skills, he doesn't have much elevation and he's clumsy around the basket so scoring in there will always be hit and miss and he'll never be able to take anyone off the dribble on a routine basis.  At best he could increase his scoring by getting more jumpshots but I guarantee you that if there were any chance that he could get more jumpshots within the flow of the offense he would take them, but unfortunately you have JJ and Josh taking a lot more of them, even though they are less efficient.


Please show me 1 example where he's said that he spends his offseason playing XBox and not working on his game. If you can show me 1 example then I'll concede my entire argument to you.  Otherwise I'm entirely confident that Marvin works on his game just as much as the vast majority of NBA players do and probably as much as any Hawk player does.



I think if Marvin really wanted to score he would be scoring. For the last few years we have heard that Jamal was talking all the shots and perhaps that took away from Marvin's decent offensive season in 2007-2008. Jamal is gone and it still hasn't stopped Marvin's decline. No doubt that JJ's jumper is pretty much broke now. But I think Marvin's high percentage is due to his limited responsibility. The guy is a career 32% 3pt shooter after all. To be fair, his minutes have dropped off every year since the season that he averaged 15PPG. I think his lack of aggressiveness is the reason for it.

[Joker]

His lack of aggressiveness is so frustrating. He's not the only one. Teague is that way too. In the NBA, these type of player thrives with great true PG's like Nash or Kidd and dominate players who demand a lot of attention and can play effectively with that attention (cough not Joe...) Marvin will never reach his apex in Atlanta but he's still effective.

[Popeye]

We should just realese him and everybody happy....