Coaching Offense.

[Diesel]

Do we run the motion offense because LD knows we have no Low post threats and thus we would do better just moving the ball from side to side?

Or Do we run the motion offense because this is a pet offense for LD?

[Guest]

Sometimes I don't know what we are running, because for a motion offense our players don't move a lot sometimes, they stand around the 3-pt line instead of cutting to basket.

[Joker]

It's a PG dominated offense that creates space for all the players on the court. It's generally a ball dominate type of offense. For us, Joe tends to be the ball dominate guy but this is still a PG based offense or else it doesn't work. Your PG has to be able to play in this offense. He has to be SMART, skilled, have court vision, be able to pass at a solid rate and be able to run a PnR decently. For many you never know but you need that to run this offense successfully.

The type of offense Hinrich and Teague need is one like the Memphis, Lakers, or Orlando but those offenses have the personnel more than the system itself.

Yes Diesel, we run this offense for that reason. We have hired staff from New Orleans to further run the offense. We have the sets but you can't run this offense without the PG. Because this is a PG dominated offense. The PG must have skills or it doesn't work. Raymond Felton, Devin Harris types just aren't skilled enough for this type of offense.

[willthepureshooter]

It's a PG dominated offense that creates space for all the players on the court. It's generally a ball dominate type of offense. For us, Joe tends to be the ball dominate guy but this is still a PG based offense or else it doesn't work. Your PG has to be able to play in this offense. He has to be SMART, skilled, have court vision, be able to pass at a solid rate and be able to run a PnR decently. For many you never know but you need that to run this offense successfully.

The type of offense Hinrich and Teague need is one like the Memphis, Lakers, or Orlando but those offenses have the personnel more than the system itself.

Yes Diesel, we run this offense for that reason. We have hired staff from New Orleans to further run the offense. We have the sets but you can't run this offense without the PG. Because this is a PG dominated offense. The PG must have skills or it doesn't work. Raymond Felton, Devin Harris types just aren't skilled enough for this type of offense.

The motion offense is not a PG dominated offense. It's an offense meant to promote lane opening for slashers. It's a pass and screen the opposite side of the floor offense. Pick and roll is what you would call a PG dominant offense. In motion, the PG isn't stressed to initiate the offense by design.

[Admin]

The motion offense is not a PG dominated offense. It's an offense meant to promote lane opening for slashers. It's a pass and screen the opposite side of the floor offense. Pick and roll is what you would call a PG dominant offense. In motion, the PG isn't stressed to initiate the offense by design.

Yep I was just about to write something like that myself. Unfortunately we don't have hardly anyone who knows how to move without the ball and we have too many guys with sticky hands that would rather shoot than make the extra pass and we have far too few guys willing to set good picks or screens. I think we'd be much better off trying to run a PnR type of offense if we had a PG capable of it but it's becoming increasingly obvious that Teague has pretty awful vision as a passer and is really nothing more than a small 2 guard with limited PG skills. He'd be a hell of a Lou Williams type of player off the bench but until we get a real upgrade at PG we're going to be limited by Teague.

From Wikipedia on the Princeton offense, which we run a modified version of:

The Princeton offense is an offensive basketball strategy which emphasizes constant motion, passing, back-door cuts, and disciplined teamwork. It was used and perfected at Princeton University by Pete Carril, though its roots may be traced back to Franklin “Cappy” Cappon, who coached Princeton Tigers men's basketball in the late 1930s^{[citation needed]}, and Bernard "Red" Sarachek, who coached at Yeshiva University from 1938 to 1977.^[1]

The offense is designed for a unit of 5 players who can each pass, shoot and dribble at an above average level. It attempts to isolate and exploit a mismatch using these skills.^[2] Positions become less important and on offense there is no point guard, shooting guard, small forward or power forward.^[3]

The offense usually starts out with four players outside the three-point arc with one player at the top of the key. The ball is kept in constant motion through passing until either a mismatch allows a player to cut to the basket or a player without the ball cuts toward the unoccupied area under and around the basket, and is passed the ball for a layup. Having a strong post player is important because this player is critical to passing to backdoor cutters, and can draw help defense to open outside shots.

The hallmark of the offense is the backdoor pass, where a player on the wing suddenly moves in towards the basket, receives a bounce pass from a guard on the perimeter, and (if done correctly) finds himself with no defenders between him and a layup. Alternatively, when the defensive team attempts to pack the paint to prevent backdoor cuts, the offense utilizes three point shots from the perimeter. All five players in the offense—including the center—should be competent at making a three point attempt, further spreading the floor.

The offense is a very slow developing one, relying on a high number of passes, and is often used by teams facing opponents with superior athletic talent, to maintain a low-scoring game (believing that a high-scoring game would favor the athletically superior opponent). As a result, Princeton has led the nation in scoring defense 19 times including every year from 1989–2000.^[4]

[DJlaysitup]

Yep I was just about to write something like that myself. Unfortunately we don't have hardly anyone who knows how to move without the ball and we have too many guys with sticky hands that would rather shoot than make the extra pass and we have far too few guys willing to set good picks or screens....

Well you just hit it on the button there Dolfan. The "motion offense" (run correctly) is predicated on moving without the ball and coming off picks. The TRUE motion offense has guys coming off picks when neither one of them have the ball. Picks are set for a cutter and the PG then makes the pass to the cutter...coming off a pick.

I would disagree a bit on the "sticky hands" thing - we often pass the ball many times - but we don't seem to know why. We gain no real advantage. A coach with little knowledge of basketball schemes can say "I want to see three passes!"...but that doesn't do any good if they are just throwing it to each other without a plan to get a better shot.

Edited February 24, 2012 by DJlaysitup

[Diesel]

Yes Diesel, we run this offense for that reason. We have hired staff from New Orleans to further run the offense. We have the sets but you can't run this offense without the PG. Because this is a PG dominated offense. The PG must have skills or it doesn't work. Raymond Felton, Devin Harris types just aren't skilled enough for this type of offense.

Gotta disagree with you there.

We run an offense similar to what Cappy used to run up in Princeton. The motion is known for not paying attention to position. In fact, it is usually the choice of the day when you don't have a dominant PG but you have 3 or more players who can pass fairly well. Having a dominant PG would destroy the advantage of the motion which is mainly to keep the ball and players moving from side to side.

One of our coaches played under Cappy as a matter of fact so he's an expert in that kind of motion. My contention is does the motion come because of our weaknesses or would LD play Motion if we had D-12 and Deron Williams?

Well you just hit it on the button there Dolfan. The "motion offense" (run correctly) is predicated on moving without the ball and coming off picks. The TRUE motion offense has guys coming off picks when neither one of them have the ball. Picks are set for a cutter and the PG then makes the pass to the cutter...coming off a pick.

I would disagree a bit on the "sticky hands" thing - we often pass the ball many times - but we don't seem to know why. We gain no real advantage. A coach with little knowledge of basketball schemes can say "I want to see three passes!"...but that doesn't do any good if they are just throwing it to each other without a plan to get a better shot.

Picks. one thing I have noticed over the last 6 yrs. Joe rarely uses picks. If he does use a pick, it's a shade off by the PG. However, he's used to the clear out with Iso play that doesn't require the pick. However, would this offense work better if Joe did use the pick?

[DJlaysitup]

Picks. one thing I have noticed over the last 6 yrs. Joe rarely uses picks. If he does use a pick, it's a shade off by the PG. However, he's used to the clear out with Iso play that doesn't require the pick. However, would this offense work better if Joe did use the pick?

You make a point D...but you are missing the point as far as a real motion offense goes. A true "motion offense" means everybody has to move....in a coordinated fashion.

The "Princeton Offense"...which is really nothing more than that which has been being done in High Schools for decades...is an offense designed around precision and control of your players motions. I don't think it can really be done at the NBA level.

Controlling NBA players is like herding cats. The only time it can be done is if you have a top level PG.

[High5]

You can't run a motion offense when the only player in motion is the one with the basketball. If we're lucky we get one good pass in the half-court, but if that's defended well our offense breaks down to hero ball or passes back to the 3pt line. We get no easy shots in the half-court. Josh and Zaza are the only people who ever get good mid-range looks, and that's not due to good offensive execution. If the floaters and 3's aren't falling we aren't scoring.

[SuperSavvyNation]

Our offense is definitely frustrating and often causes me to ask myself, " are we this poorly coached, because it looks like we have no clue how to run a play properly".

Seems like our guards will attempt to run a play, have an opportunity to get something going towards the basket and then give up on it and pitch it back outside to a nonshooter with 8 seconds on the clock.

We set weak screens and the guards use them to little effect, gaining no advantage in terms of scoring the basketball. I watch Steve Nash use a pick n roll and wonder how hard it can be to teach a guard to use angles and space to their advantage. Now Nash has vision, passing precision, and judgement...so that helps a ton. And he also has the threat of hitting the outside shot. But being quick, decisive, and using the angles and space are some things that I expect the Hawks guards to be able to do. We just rarely gain any advantage because our plays are so poorly executed.

[ATLSmith]

Sometimes I don't know what we are running, because for a motion offense our players don't move a lot sometimes, they stand around the 3-pt line instead of cutting to basket.

I agree. But I do think it is the players and not by design. Kirk and Green seem to move well without the ball while everyone on this team stands there and watches the dribble.

[Joker]

The motion offense is not a PG dominated offense. It's an offense meant to promote lane opening for slashers. It's a pass and screen the opposite side of the floor offense. Pick and roll is what you would call a PG dominant offense. In motion, the PG isn't stressed to initiate the offense by design.

In the NBA it is. What you are thinking about is the Princeton style motion offense. The Princeton style offense doesn't work in the NBA for several reasons like the triple option. There is no such thing as the pick n roll offense.

Gotta disagree with you there.

We run an offense similar to what Cappy used to run up in Princeton. The motion is known for not paying attention to position. In fact, it is usually the choice of the day when you don't have a dominant PG but you have 3 or more players who can pass fairly well. Having a dominant PG would destroy the advantage of the motion which is mainly to keep the ball and players moving from side to side.

One of our coaches played under Cappy as a matter of fact so he's an expert in that kind of motion. My contention is does the motion come because of our weaknesses or would LD play Motion if we had D-12 and Deron Williams?

Picks. one thing I have noticed over the last 6 yrs. Joe rarely uses picks. If he does use a pick, it's a shade off by the PG. However, he's used to the clear out with Iso play that doesn't require the pick. However, would this offense work better if Joe did use the pick?

In the NBA, it's impossible to get that movement with the athletes in this league. It's basically a different variation. Byron Scott and LD run the same type of offense. Eddie Jordan run this type of offense as well.

[benhillboy]

We screen and cut about half as much as a True Princeton offense, so L.D. fails if that is what he's trying to implement. As far as having 5 guys on the floor who can dribble, pass, and shoot, saying we have 2 at full strength would be a stretch. When Bibby wanted to screen, he could lay a nice, unexpected one for his size and they were almost always productive in opening up for someone or getting himself a nice mid-range look. Marvin's sole role on offense should be cutting and catching the ball as close to the basket as possible with no dribbles, but I'm sure he'd find a way to muck up an easy 2. I'm not sure why Joe doesn't use screens more. For someone who struggles with foot speed to get around defenders, you would think he'd call for many more, but I guess he's just more comfortable without 'em.

Edited February 24, 2012 by benhillboy

[GameTime]

Our offense is motion offense without the motion.

[Watchman]

Our offense is motion offense without the motion.

Coaching Offense.

Our coaches have been commiting numerous coaching offenses for years. Therefore, I would conclude that, yes, our coaching is offensive. I am certainly offended by it. Who would not be offended by it?

Edited February 24, 2012 by Watchman

[Eddielives]

As bad as our offense looks now, I must say it looks slightly better than whatever we ran under Woodson. That isn't saying much as Woodson's offense seemed to be iso-joe for 40 minutes a night.

[willthepureshooter]

In the NBA it is. What you are thinking about is the Princeton style motion offense. The Princeton style offense doesn't work in the NBA for several reasons like the triple option. There is no such thing as the pick n roll offense.

In the NBA, it's impossible to get that movement with the athletes in this league. It's basically a different variation. Byron Scott and LD run the same type of offense. Eddie Jordan run this type of offense as well.

....blank stare....

[Kimsey]

Charles Barkley on Atlanta using Princeton offense: "I want my attorney to be from Princeton, not my players."

[Admin]

Charles Barkley on Atlanta using Princeton offense: "I want my attorney to be from Princeton, not my players."

One of my favorite quotes of all time from Chuck

[Joker]

The NBA variation of the motion offense is still the best possible offense for our personnel.