now you know haters

[NineOhTheRino]

What now haters? What will it take to hush you guys on my main man Joe Johnson?

[hawkrule152]

Joe straight balled tonight! ANd has been the last couple of weeks. He deserves no hate!

[MaceCase]

I cannot support this heel turn. I thought you were riding with the Greatness?

[NineOhTheRino]

I cannot support this heel turn. I thought you were riding with the Greatness?

just a preemptive strike for YKW

[Supporter]

What?

[Sothron]

Is this a shot at me? I deserve some kind of mockery because I support our team's best player?As a wise man once said.... Just. Bring. It.

[thatsmydawg]

What now haters? What will it take to hush you guys on my main man Joe Johnson?

EC Finals should do it for me.

[BrazilianHawk]

Joe is our best player, hands down. Then Boss. Anyone surprised the Birdbrain stopped playing well after the trade deadline? Not me.I've seen this film before.

[thecampster]

What now haters? What will it take to hush you guys on my main man Joe Johnson?

Just remember, you asked.In this game, Joe made 9 shots. Joe missed 8 shots. Joe turned the ball over 7 times. Joe got 1 assist.In this game, Josh made 5 shots. Josh missed 15 shots. Josh had only 1 turn over. Josh got 8 assists. That is 25 possessions for Joe. 10 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 40%That is 29 possessions for Josh. 13 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 44.8%It's all a matter of perspective. In your world, you see "points" and that equals a good game to you. Using this very simple formula for the year. Joe has made 283 field goals. He has missed 356. He has turned the ball over 82 times and has 152 assists. That is a conversion rate of 49.8%. Josh has made 328 field goals and missed 403. He has turned the ball over 110 time and has 179 assists. That is a conversion rate of 49.7%. Offensively, they are very similar as far as their effect on the game. Throw in rebounding rate and Josh's defensive impact and it's no contest.It isn't hate to say Joe isn't worth his contract, it's fact. I don't hate Joe. I wish him a long and happy life with many children and grandchildren. But his contract is an anvil around the neck of the franchise. A couple of high scoring games in a row doesn't change that.

[Diesel]

Just remember, you asked.In this game, Joe made 9 shots. Joe missed 8 shots. Joe turned the ball over 7 times. Joe got 1 assist.In this game, Josh made 5 shots. Josh missed 15 shots. Josh had only 1 turn over. Josh got 8 assists.That is 25 possessions for Joe. 10 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 40%That is 29 possessions for Josh. 13 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 44.8%It's all a matter of perspective. In your world, you see "points" and that equals a good game to you. Using this very simple formula for the year. Joe has made 283 field goals. He has missed 356. He has turned the ball over 82 times and has 152 assists. That is a conversion rate of 49.8%. Josh has made 328 field goals and missed 403. He has turned the ball over 110 time and has 179 assists. That is a conversion rate of 49.7%. Offensively, they are very similar as far as their effect on the game. Throw in rebounding rate and Josh's defensive impact and it's no contest.It isn't hate to say Joe isn't worth his contract, it's fact. I don't hate Joe. I wish him a long and happy life with many children and grandchildren. But his contract is an anvil around the neck of the franchise. A couple of high scoring games in a row doesn't change that.

The interesting thing about your nimbers is that Smoove got his assists... mostly passing to Joe??Isn't that ironic?It's like calling John Paxson or BJ Armstrong great PGs...

[99PROBL3MS]

Throw in the fact that Joe absolutely owned Paul Piece (a likely HOF guy) all night and he had a good game. If teammates made shots Joe would have easily had 5 or 6 assist but only he and Zaza played with a pulse offensively. I'll take my chances with the turnovers (which he won't have most nights) if I keep getting big 4th quarters. Zaza was our second best option offensively. That is what kind of night it was. Let that soak in.

Edited March 20, 2012 by 99PROBL3MS

[Eddielives]

It's called big picture when it comes to Joe or any other player. A good month, doesn't mean anything unless it's in the playoffs. Still waiting for a playoff run from Joe where he leads us past an opponent we aren't supposed to beat. I love that he's playing better now but I'm not overreacting. And I'm wondering when the world will lost this childish "hate" meme that is so often used in commentary. It really dumbs down the conversation to elementary level.

[thatsmydawg]

Throw in the fact that Joe absolutely owned Paul Piece (a likely HOF guy) all night and he had a good game. If teammates made shots Joe would have easily had 5 or 6 assist but only he and Zaza played with a pulse offensively. I'll take my chances with the turnovers (which he won't have most nights) if I keep getting big 4th quarters. Zaza was our second best option offensively. That is what kind of night it was. Let that soak in.

Joe is prone to turning the ball over more than you think. He has less on the year than Josh but has played fewer games as well. He's on fire right now though.You know, people keep calling Smoove dumb but what I don't understand is why Joe gets a pass for HOLDING THE BALL for an entire shot clock and then either forcing a bad pass or a bad shot. He does this atleast 5 times a game. Smoove takes atleast 5 really bad shots a game but just gets hammered on this board. Both guys can slam the emergency brakes on the offense.

[willthepureshooter]

A couple of Joes turnovers came from teammates not spreading the floor and being in spots. He had a couple passes that could've been assists but teammates didn't knock them down. What can you say, he tried...

[Diesel]

Joe is prone to turning the ball over more than you think. He has less on the year than Josh but has played fewer games as well. He's on fire right now though.You know, people keep calling Smoove dumb but what I don't understand is why Joe gets a pass for HOLDING THE BALL for an entire shot clock and then either forcing a bad pass or a bad shot. He does this atleast 5 times a game. Smoove takes atleast 5 really bad shots a game but just gets hammered on this board. Both guys can slam the emergency brakes on the offense.

Huh??Can you construct an argument against Joe... I see you're reaching in every direction for one. Let me help you. Joe is very good but overpaid. That's the bottom line.as far as turnovers.1.83.33.12.72.51.92.02.1Those are JJ's T.O. per game numbers since he was with Phoenix (1.8) then with us.His first year with us, he hoovered around 3 T.O.s per game. His numbers got better with him not having to be the primary ball handler.However, even at 2.1, JJ is still miles better than Wade, Kobe, and everybody's favorite.. Harden.If you want to make a strong argument about Joe based on TOs... you're just wasting breath.

[thecampster]

A couple of Joes turnovers came from teammates not spreading the floor and being in spots. He had a couple passes that could've been assists but teammates didn't knock them down. What can you say, he tried...

That same thing is said for all passers. I can think of 3 passes to Zaza a few nights ago that kept Josh out of double digits. Look at the season long numbers and you'll see that Joe's production isn't any better than Josh (or other players for that matter) without the rebounds, blocked shots or steals.

[thatsmydawg]

Huh??Can you construct an argument against Joe... I see you're reaching in every direction for one. Let me help you. Joe is very good but overpaid. That's the bottom line.as far as turnovers.1.83.33.12.72.51.92.02.1Those are JJ's T.O. per game numbers since he was with Phoenix (1.8) then with us.His first year with us, he hoovered around 3 T.O.s per game. His numbers got better with him not having to be the primary ball handler.However, even at 2.1, JJ is still miles better than Wade, Kobe, and everybody's favorite.. Harden.If you want to make a strong argument about Joe based on TOs... you're just wasting breath.

The Hawks in general are good at limiting their turnovers. My perception of Joe is that he doesn't really care if the Hawks win or lose. The post I responded to said Joe doesn't turn the ball over most nights but he will give u a couple and, as I stated earlier, they typically come when he slams on the brakes and holds the ball until the shot clock is about to expire and has to do something. My point is Joe gets the pass while others don't. Why isn't Joe "dumb" for his insistence to hold the ball and drain out the clock? They feel like turnovers to me and he does it as much as Josh takes bad shots.

[ag82]

Just remember, you asked.In this game, Joe made 9 shots. Joe missed 8 shots. Joe turned the ball over 7 times. Joe got 1 assist.In this game, Josh made 5 shots. Josh missed 15 shots. Josh had only 1 turn over. Josh got 8 assists.That is 25 possessions for Joe. 10 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 40%That is 29 possessions for Josh. 13 turned into points. Conversion ratio: 44.8%

I'm not mathematician or anything, but that doesn't really seem to add up. Obviously assists are valuable, but that formula seems to give Josh just as much credit for an assist as he gets for the bucket. You can't really give equal value to a basket scored by someone as an assist that they make. The assist should probably be worth somewhere around half the value of the actual basket (like hockey, i believe).

[ag82]

Ok so I figured out why that ratio is completely irrelevant.If you have a big playoff game, which of these guys do you want?1) 20/47 (27 misses)6 TO1 AssistLet's say he scores 49 points, which is reasonable for those numbers.2) 2/3 (1 miss)1 TO2 AssistsThis guy scores 5 points.First guy had 54 possessions and converted on 21 of those for a conversion percentage of: 38.9%Second guy had 6 possessions and converted on 4 of those for a conversion percentage of: 66.7%The made baskets (and free throws) have to be weighed differently than missed shots and turnovers because a turnover or missed shot does not have a consequence unless the other team scores, whereas a made shot is an actual thing that has a direct impact on the game. For instance, you could get 50 turnovers in a game, but you won't win unless you can score a point. That 1 point is way more valuable than the 50 turnovers.

Edited March 21, 2012 by ag82

[thecampster]

Ok so I figured out why that ratio is completely irrelevant.If you have a big playoff game, which of these guys do you want?1) 20/47 (27 misses)6 TO1 AssistLet's say he scores 49 points, which is reasonable for those numbers.2) 2/3 (1 miss)1 TO2 AssistsThis guy scores 5 points.First guy had 54 possessions and converted on 21 of those for a conversion percentage of: 38.9%Second guy had 6 possessions and converted on 4 of those for a conversion percentage of: 66.7%The made baskets (and free throws) have to be weighed differently than missed shots and turnovers because a turnover or missed shot does not have a consequence unless the other team scores, whereas a made shot is an actual thing that has a direct impact on the game. For instance, you could get 50 turnovers in a game, but you won't win unless you can score a point. That 1 point is way more valuable than the 50 turnovers.

No, the stat sticks because the usage was similar. They were involved in a similar amount of plays/possessions.

I'm not mathematician or anything, but that doesn't really seem to add up. Obviously assists are valuable, but that formula seems to give Josh just as much credit for an assist as he gets for the bucket. You can't really give equal value to a basket scored by someone as an assist that they make. The assist should probably be worth somewhere around half the value of the actual basket (like hockey, i believe).

An assist in hockey goes to the last 2 players to touch the puck. Basically, each is getting half the credit for getting the score.In basketball, only the last player who touched the ball before the shooter gets credit and he only gets credit if the shooter can make the basket in flow...ie...2 steps or less or 1 dribble or less. What this means is that the passer created the shot by either his abilities with the ball or his court awareness making the pass. Now why is it the same. An assist leads to a basket. You don't get a basket if you don't score so an assist only counts if you score. The score is either a 2 or a 3. The shooter only gets points if he scores and that score is either a 2 or a 3.Now, looking at Josh Smith's stats for the year. Josh and Joe are shooting a similar percentage. Josh is making 7.1 shots a game, 63% assisted. Joe is making the same 7.1 shots a game, 50% assisted. So what this means. 1/3 of the time Josh is creating his own shot (usually with a post or putback). 1/2 of the time...Joe is creating his own shot. We know this because of "ISO Joe".Now here is what is disturbing about the assists number. According to this data, Joe has the ball in his hand with the ability to make a play more often (he should, he's a guard) but both players have identical assists per 48 minutes. In Joe's case, his assists per bad pass seem very good until you realize his other turnovers (offensive fouls, ball handling and shot clock violations) are in excess of his bad passes. In other words, his holding on to the ball too long is up'ing his turnover ratio and his lack of passing out early is actually lowering the number of assists total. Proof of that is the type of assists he's generating. over 72% of his assists are coming on other people's jump shots, less than 30% on close up shots or dunks. This means jump shooters are bailing him out. These aren't really assists but bail outs (think the infamous Smoove 3 attempt with less than 5 seconds on the clock). By contrast, Teague is getting 32% of his assists on close up plays. Josh is getting over 45% of his assists on plays around the basket. These aren't bail outs but court vision assists. He posts, hits an open jump shooter or hits a cutter. About 30% of his assists are to 3 point shooters. Only 25% are to standard jump shooters.Again, this isn't Joe hate. It's basketball science if you will. The shot clock is a 24 second dance. You have 24 seconds to get a good shot. Any of the 5 players on the floor could/should take a good shot. Holding the ball, stopping ball movement is a killer. The assist selection shows that.Both players play almost the exact same minutes per game, make the same number of shots per game, shoot virtually the same percentage, but the power forward is beating the guard in Assists/game, steals/game, blocks/game. The reason for Josh scoring 1.5 less points a game than Joe at this point is FT%. That's the difference.Take 2 generic players. They score the same, assist the same, shoot a similar percentage. One player though is hurt less often, gets 2.5 times the rebounds, 1.5 times the steals, 6 times the blocks is 5 years younger and costs 5 million dollars less a year. Yep, I'd take generic player 2 as well.