Hawks and Free Agency - Cap Space and Options (replies)

[Wretch]

Replying to this topic by AHF: no, trying to circumvent our cap limitations with trades to free up room (in addition to any sort of amnesty of anybody) is not going to work either. All of this leaves us with nothing to appeal to a guy who may be the best PG in the league. He wants to WIN, not struggle to get TO the 2nd round of the playoffs. Dallas can make a strong play for him as could LA with a SNT. Either would probably be a no-brainer for him if he doesn't return to NJ/Brooklyn.

Edited June 1, 2012 by Dolfan23
Split topic to create clean sticky

[AHF]

...and no, trying to circumvent our cap limitations with trades to free up room (in addition to any sort of amnesty of anybody) is not going to work either. All of this leaves us with nothing to appeal to a guy who may be the best PG in the league. He wants to WIN, not struggle to get TO the 2nd round of the playoffs. Dallas can make a strong play for him as could LA with a SNT. Either would probably be a no-brainer for him if he doesn't return to NJ/Brooklyn.

Your best case there is getting someone to give you a second round pick and assume Marvin's contract. That would leave you with room to offer a max contract and a team of:Deron/Teague#23 Pick / Minimum Salary / Minimum SalaryMinimum Salary / Minimum SalaryJosh Smith / Ivan Johnson / Minimum SalaryAl Horford / Zaza Pachulia / Minimum SalaryNot very attractive for a free agent who isn't exactly dying to be a Hawk.

[Dragitoff]

Honestly, if I was Deron, I'd think long and hard about staying with the Nets. They've got a new arena, deep pockets, D12 wants to play there, and they've got a good nucleus of talent to build around. If they re-signed all their current guys, their starting 5 now would be:Deron WilliamsMarshon BrooksGerald WallaceKris HumphriesBrook LopezThat's not a bad starting 5 IMO.

[Diesel]

I'm thinking:Teague/MinimumBrewer / Minimum Salary / Minimum SalaryJoe / Minimum SalaryHorford/ #23/IVANGasol / Zaza Pachulia / #2nd Rounder Henry Sims.#23 = Dude at out of MSState or Fab Melo

[AHF]

I still am perplexed by why they dealt their #6 lotto pick for Wallace in the first place. It made zero sense to me.This thread, however, wasn't really intended to be focused on Deron so much as laying out the playing field for us in free agency.

[Diesel]

I still am perplexed by why they dealt their #6 lotto pick for Wallace in the first place. It made zero sense to me.This thread, however, wasn't really intended to be focused on Deron so much as laying out the playing field for us in free agency.

The bottom line on Deron is that he still has to want to be here.

[thecampster]

Although I believe it will do minimal good. Sticky this please!

[Wretch]

I'm thinking:Teague/MinimumBrewer / Minimum Salary / Minimum SalaryJoe / Minimum SalaryHorford/ #23/IVANGasol / Zaza Pachulia / #2nd Rounder Henry Sims.#23 = Dude at out of MSState or Fab Melo

The question I have to ask is if Teague/Joe/Horf/Gasol is any better than Kobe/Artest/Bynum/Gasol - a deeper team, with a HoF coach. That team has been beaten badly over the past 2 seasons. I will admit that I am interested in seeing Horford with more shots and moved over to PF full time, with more PnR/P. But to me this is marginal...incremental improvement. More over, there's a reason Gasol is on the block. If he were the solution for us, his name would not be all over the wires. I wouldn't exactly cry over that deal, but it's not something that I'd get excited about. Certainly it's something that would not last very long considering the miles on Gasol.

[HawkItus]

Just STOP! You are making too much sense in this well thought out and organized posting. I need more inane what if trade scenarios and cowbell!

[HawkItus]

The question I have to ask is if Teague/Joe/Horf/Gasol is any better than Kobe/Artest/Bynum/Gasol - a deeper team, with a HoF coach. That team has been beaten badly over the past 2 seasons. I will admit that I am interested in seeing Horford with more shots and moved over to PF full time, with more PnR/P. But to me this is marginal...incremental improvement. More over, there's a reason Gasol is on the block. If he were the solution for us, his name would not be all over the wires. I wouldn't exactly cry over that deal, but it's not something that I'd get excited about. Certainly it's something that would not last very long considering the miles on Gasol.

Put that team in the East and you are looking a conference finalist the last 2 years I think.

[Buzzard]

The question I have to ask is if Teague/Joe/Horf/Gasol is any better than Kobe/Artest/Bynum/Gasol - a deeper team, with a HoF coach. That team has been beaten badly over the past 2 seasons. I will admit that I am interested in seeing Horford with more shots and moved over to PF full time, with more PnR/P. But to me this is marginal...incremental improvement. More over, there's a reason Gasol is on the block. If he were the solution for us, his name would not be all over the wires. I wouldn't exactly cry over that deal, but it's not something that I'd get excited about. Certainly it's something that would not last very long considering the miles on Gasol.

The other plus to Gasol is the huge expiring he has coming up in two years. 1/2 way through season two if we are not a contender we may be able to turn him into something great. Josh on the other hand will be in the 1st year of his latest deal and probably next to impossible to move.

[coachx]

Just STOP! You are making too much sense in this well thought out and organized posting. I need more inane what if trade scenarios and cowbell!

YES !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZOHY7Z5eaQ

[Admin]

I still am perplexed by why they dealt their #6 lotto pick for Wallace in the first place. It made zero sense to me.This thread, however, wasn't really intended to be focused on Deron so much as laying out the playing field for us in free agency.

Taken care of! Well done on your summary AHF!

Although I believe it will do minimal good. Sticky this please!

10-4!

[AHF]

For the cap, yes. We are over the cap with no way to get under it though (please leave the fantasy of Amnesty Joe out of it). For luxury tax purposes (which is what we should be concerned about), no. All minimums (vet or rookie) count the same in the eyes of the luxury tax. I believe it is the 2 year amount. But yes, Ivan was charged the same amount as Stack in the eyes of the luxury tax police even though there was about a $900K difference in their actual salaries.

Even though the A$G paid the luxury tax, they actually got a pretty hefty subsidy from the league because the league will pay excess of the 2 year vet minimum amount. Now...how many vetmins did we have above 2 years of experience?

My understanding is that for actual payment veterans are more expensive but for cap and tax purposes veterans with 3 or more years of service are charged at the 2 year veteran level. Rookie and 1 year vets are still charged at a lower level, but the difference is pretty small.

I am getting that from Coon:

When a player has been in the NBA for three or more seasons, and is playing under a one-year, ten-day or rest-of-season contract, the league reimburses the team for part of his salary -- any amount above the minimum salary level for a two-year veteran. For example, in 2011-12 the minimum salary for a two-year veteran is $854,389, so for a ten-year veteran, with a minimum salary of $1,352,181, the league would reimburse the team $497,792. Only the two-year minimum salary is included in the team salary, not the player's full salary. They do this so teams won't shy away from signing older veterans simply because they are more expensive than younger veterans.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q16

I could be missing a tweak for luxury tax purposes, though.

I should note that if you go through Larry Coon's CBAFAQ he does a piss poor job explaining what gets counted in the luxury tax. He omits the part about all minimum contracts counting the same. He does a real good job with lots of other things though.

That would explain it.

Thanks!

[NekiEcko]

^{So in other words, unless we do some trading, it will Vetmin 2: The Sequel. Oh well, Deron wasnt coming here anyway, or any established NBA player that has some brains about them.}

^{But I wonder how the numbers looked if we traded Josh or Joe or Both. Better or Worst?}

[AHF]

But I wonder how the numbers looked if we traded Josh or Joe or Both. Better or Worst?

It depends entirely on the terms of the trade. It could be better or worse.If you dealt Josh Smith for Toronto's #8 pick and they absorbed his salary without sending anyone back, then you have serious cap savings but that puts you around the ability to add a $7M player. If you deal Josh for $14M in salary, then you are restricting the room you have to sign anyone.

[Diesel]

The question I have to ask is if Teague/Joe/Horf/Gasol is any better than Kobe/Artest/Bynum/Gasol - a deeper team, with a HoF coach. That team has been beaten badly over the past 2 seasons. I will admit that I am interested in seeing Horford with more shots and moved over to PF full time, with more PnR/P. But to me this is marginal...incremental improvement. More over, there's a reason Gasol is on the block. If he were the solution for us, his name would not be all over the wires. I wouldn't exactly cry over that deal, but it's not something that I'd get excited about. Certainly it's something that would not last very long considering the miles on Gasol.

To answer the question.That team of the Lakers go with Meta. As Meta goes, they go. Meta has been in a steep decline since they won it all. Moreover, with new coaching, Bynum and Gasol has been put at odds. That team doesn't know how to win right now. And Kobe has been given the green light all the time. I love Kobe but Kobe has to be put around the right players or else it won't work. With no fisher there to balance everything, the Lakers can't win.On to us. I don't know if we can win it all, But I believe we'll definitely go farther than this franchise has ever been.I was excited by what we could do without Horf. At the same time, it was evident of what the distractions were.2ndly. Gasol is for us for two reasons. One his skillset. Two his contract. He gives us a window that allows us to restart. It's a gamble as is any good trade but I like viewing teams based on skillset

[thecampster]

Here is the problem with the "make a trade" concept. Although it is possible to score Deron or Howard through trade, It will require trading away Joe, Horford, Teague, Marvin to get those 2 plus at least 1 pick. The reason you must do that is because in order to keep 1, you have to get the other. Allowing them to play together with Josh and or Horford would give you a base to start with. Joe doesn't work because all 3 salaries together are too much.If you don't get both, then you won't keep the first. You need to go all in to keep either which means keeping both. Once you trade for one, the other team knows and will hold you ransom for the other.

[Buzzard]

If you don't get both, then you won't keep the first. You need to go all in to keep either which means keeping both. Once you trade for one, the other team knows and will hold you ransom for the other.

So you are predicting that Howard and Deron will be on the same team via trade, or will leave the team they are traded to if not moved to the same team, or will stay put in NJ or Orlando. Interesting theory to say the least.I think Deron is Dallas bound and no way Cuban can get Howard this season if he locks up Deron and keeps Dirk. Edited June 2, 2012 by Buzzard

[lethalweapon3]

Does Sergiy qualify as at least one of our "minimum salary rookie free agent" candidates?~lw3