Talkin' Blasephemy

[Dragitoff]

That...is my hope. See, that right there would make me go from uninspired to PISSED. OFF. The forward thinking has to be to change as soon as the opportunity arises. We've got to get out of this. Thing is...I don't see the fire sale. Maybe that's just the nervousness in me. Which is why (as always) I'm holding my breath until the trade deadline. If I don't see a major move by February, I'm thinking "win without losing" has been resurrected. To be honest, it should have happened already. There are teams that are interested in our forward combo. Lots of them. This could have happened already...but I am going to hold my breath. For those not wanting to bother with the process of rebuilding...look. This is very simple. You're going to meet a certain kind of team in the playoffs. You can quantify it with numbers and advanced stats, but it's much more simple than that. You know these teams when you see them. As a fan, you think anything is possible and you hope. The reality of it sets in when you REALLY look at that team - and you know you've got no chance. This team is not going to beat Chicago or Miami The era we just left was not going to be Boston or Cleveland The 90's Hawks weren't beating the Bulls or Knicks The 80's Hawks weren't beating the Pistons, Celtics, or Bulls. And waiting to make the road difficult were always Orlando, Indiana, Milwuakee...and just a pile of really good teams - some like us, some a little better than us. Thing is, you look at those top teams...and there is just a WALL of talent, hell bent on a singular goal, led by franchise talent, and coached by the BEST their teams can get. You're just not going to roll in there with your half-assed squad and make a dent in that wall. You're going to get smacked in the mouth. And nobody likes a loser - not the media, not the fans, not the free agents that you want to come here. Not even when they're a grandaddy like Shaq 2 seasons from retirement. You can't beat those teams like this. You can't go toe to toe with those kinds of teams unless you have those kinds of players. And can this club, in this town, really afford 5-6 more years of mediocrity...only to start rebuilding THEN and have the rebuilding process take 3 to 7 MORE years?

I'm trying to figure out just what the heck you expected Ferry to do? He made an all-out effort to get D12. That failed, but it wasn't for a lack of trying on his part. He's put us in position to sign someone like CP3, D12, or Bynum if they elect to test FA. With Joe and Marvin, who could we have signed? The Tracy McGrady's of the world? Pass. Are any of those top tier FA guys a sure bet? No, but why such a knee jerk reaction 3 games into the season? Auditions are being held now. Some may be sent home (to another team) by the trading deadline. Others might just hang around through the end of this season. Either way, I'm a dedicated fan and have been as long as you. I'm 34 and have been a Hawks fan since Nique, Doc, and Spud. I'll remain a Hawks fan regardless. I agree with other posters that this is the most excited I've been for a team in a really long time. They're fun to watch now, but I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses expecting a championship this year, but I think we're honestly alot closer to one that last season just because we have flexibility. One key note to think about. This is the new NBA. Teams are not nearly as willing to go into the LT any longer. Having financial flexibility can open doors that would have previously been closed to trading for players because you can simply afford to take on salary. That may be an area that benefits us greatly down the road. We will be one of those teams who can actually afford to do that!

[macdaddy]

Where was this post the last 4 years? We've been a joke around the league as far as playoff teams go. Why, now that we are finally trying to do something about it, is there this doom and gloom mentality? Its not a video game. Rebuilding is a long and complex and uncertain process no matter which way you do it.

[AHF]

I'm trying to figure out just what the heck you expected Ferry to do? He made an all-out effort to get D12. That failed, but it wasn't for a lack of trying on his part. He's put us in position to sign someone like CP3, D12, or Bynum if they elect to test FA. With Joe and Marvin, who could we have signed? The Tracy McGrady's of the world? Pass. Are any of those top tier FA guys a sure bet? No, but why such a knee jerk reaction 3 games into the season? Auditions are being held now. Some may be sent home (to another team) by the trading deadline. Others might just hang around through the end of this season. Either way, I'm a dedicated fan and have been as long as you. I'm 34 and have been a Hawks fan since Nique, Doc, and Spud. I'll remain a Hawks fan regardless. I agree with other posters that this is the most excited I've been for a team in a really long time. They're fun to watch now, but I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses expecting a championship this year, but I think we're honestly alot closer to one that last season just because we have flexibility. One key note to think about. This is the new NBA. Teams are not nearly as willing to go into the LT any longer. Having financial flexibility can open doors that would have previously been closed to trading for players because you can simply afford to take on salary. That may be an area that benefits us greatly down the road. We will be one of those teams who can actually afford to do that!

His proposal at the beginning of the thread was to trade away value players for future assets and go for a star in the lottery. Edited November 9, 2012 by AHF

[macdaddy]

His proposal at the beginning of the thread was to trade away value players for future assets and go for a star in the lottery.

[HawkItus]

Damn that is depressing.

[MrMeltdown]

I am all for blowing it up but I was that way even before we traded Joe and acted like his contract was the main thing holding us back. I am still for trading Josh Smith rather than re-signing him as a PF when we have Al Horford. Just do not see that combo working at PF and C. My issue is building totally through the draft rarely works and we have had our chances to do that and failed.Signing Lou Williams to a long term contract was the most baffling move of the off-season. If this team is in full rebuild mode why do you lock up a 6th man even though the price is reasonable? Most signs say we are not going to totally gut the team and the expirings we have other than Jeff and Josh are not really worth much.Face it, our faith will lie in something that has failed us so many times and that is getting superstars to come to Atlanta over the other more respected options.

Edited November 9, 2012 by MrMeltdown

[Diesel]

For the sheer entertainment value of this squad. And the anticipation of what a talented GM can do with a lot of expirings and cap space. This is exciting stuff for me. Y'all aren't "feeling it" because these are all new faces without any developed chemistry. Yet.

How can you say both... 1. GM with loads of capspace. 2. Waiting on chemistry. This is what Wretch is talking about. All the Chemistry in the world won't give us the finals product. We need talent and organization. 1st.. take the good. - 2nd.. deal the parts that don't fit. 3rd... new coach. 4th... Grow together. Capspace = Nothing in this NBA. Most teams will lock up the best players just so they don't have to worry about teams with capspace. Moreover, Atlanta has never been good at attracting FAs. We need solid trades. Get back to the mold. Get a good draft pick.

[Diesel]

Where was this post the last 4 years? We've been a joke around the league as far as playoff teams go. Why, now that we are finally trying to do something about it, is there this doom and gloom mentality? Its not a video game. Rebuilding is a long and complex and uncertain process no matter which way you do it.

It's not about our standing with those around the league. F them. it's about How we feel our chances are. When we had superstar power, we had the power to attract superstars. Now without it, we need to trade for what we can use and draft a superstar. Those past four years, we have had flawed teams with good results. Wretch spoke on it then. Now, we have a much more flawed team. We seem a lot smaller and less defensive now. We are going to get KILT. KILT... and they might not wait til the playoffs to prove it.

[macdaddy]

How can you say both... 1. GM with loads of capspace. 2. Waiting on chemistry. This is what Wretch is talking about. All the Chemistry in the world won't give us the finals product. We need talent and organization. 1st.. take the good. - 2nd.. deal the parts that don't fit. 3rd... new coach. 4th... Grow together. Capspace = Nothing in this NBA. Most teams will lock up the best players just so they don't have to worry about teams with capspace. Moreover, Atlanta has never been good at attracting FAs. We need solid trades. Get back to the mold. Get a good draft pick.

isn't this exactly what Ferry is doing? It doesn't all happen on one day.

[Wretch]

Does it happen in one day? What are you expecting?

Let me address this one first. Don't d*ck around. Was there any question what we were going to do in 2004? No. There were no assumptions about what the Hawks were trying to do back then. How is this a relevant or solid ground to stand on:

You passed on Chris Paul.

You passed on Deron Williams.

You refused to TANK 2003 and lost Dwight Howard by a handful of games.

You made a dumb promise to Sheldon Williams.

You have gambled on Joe and lost.

You refused to fire Mike Woodson.

You refused to adjust WLOC after SEVERAL playoff failures.

...but you post this picture as if it were the response to rebuilding a team. And I'm sitting here like...wow...really? Really people? You guys are like prisoners. Just blinded to what the real NBA is like.

What I expect is a sense of urgency and no vagueness about what we are doing here. Are we rebuilding? Are we trying to win without losing? All I see is that we've brought in talent that makes the team competitive.

I am all for blowing it up but I was that way even before we traded Joe and acted like his contract was the main thing holding us back. I am still for trading Josh Smith rather than re-signing him as a PF when we have Al Horford. Just do not see that combo working at PF and C. My issue is building totally through the draft rarely works and we have had our chances to do that and failed.

Signing Lou Williams to a long term contract was the most baffling move of the off-season. If this team is in full rebuild mode why do you lock up a 6th man even though the price is reasonable? Most signs say we are not going to totally gut the team and the expirings we have other than Jeff and Josh are not really worth much.

Hello? Like, I see a few faces that can hear me and what I'm saying. Especially the part in bold. I hope that move was not a precursor to trying to build a team without losing our precious playoff standing.

He's saying let's be a lottery team, DUR!

No. I'm saying FOCUS. There has to be one goal in mind. Building a team that can go toe to toe with the elite. There are multiple paths to get there BUT THERE IS ONLY ONE VEHICLE. That vehicle (team) may be made up of many parts, but the ENGINE is what matters. I'm saying forget that we have a season to play. If you're managing THIS team, you need to be HELL BENT on putting a franchise talent on the court. All other conversation is irrelevant.

Babcock tried this in the 90's. It didn't work. It's not going to work. Pete Babcock ignored the draft and gave away picks that could have changed us. He started this culture. While other teams picked up that franchise talent, we were "winning without losing" and drafting these guys:

We followed that up with a short and uneventful era and FINALLY went into rebuild mode with...an idiot playing 6'8" mad scientist. We still have remnants of that regime and you guys have the attitude like...we need to start the Babcock process all over again. It's not so much about going into the lottery to "win it big." It is about GETTING the good (franchise) talent, getting rid of parts that don't fit, getting the right management (coaching, front office, etc.), and growing a wholly new product with a new identity.

At the end of the day, you can argue all you want. You're still going to face that team in the playoffs. And there ain't shit you can say about it. You have to go through that team and when you build your team like ours, you will suffer losses the way we do.

isn't this exactly what Ferry is doing? It doesn't all happen on one day.

I did say that I'm giving this guy until midseason. But if you are a real fan and you REALLY want your team to win, then you should be disturbed if you see us continue to nickle and dime with this team. We need to rebuild from the ground up and the focus has to be on acquiring talent that can draw talent. The goal has to be to put a contender on the court.

Otherwise...what are we doing?

Personally...I don't care how we get there. If it works and we plug in a talent at the 2 or 5 that can get us to the next level. I'm good. If we draft a superstar, I'm good. If somebody on our team steps up, I'm good. If we build a Detroit model that gets us close to the finals, I'm good.

I'm not okay with maintaining a "good" team just for the sake of not losing. I want a real team. I want to be free of this endless cycle of mediocrity - and we need to make MAJOR steps in that direction. YES getting rid of Joe was a start, but once you take the engine out of the car...don't put the exact same thing in it. It's only going to take you as far as the last one did.

[HawkItus]

RoaR!

Dude, you act like this is mathematics and not alchemy. Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Melo, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady, Lebron, Chris Bosh, Wilt, Jabarr, Chuck etc. There is no magic formula to winning a title. Sure things in the draft don't equal to the championship belt. Yeah, babcock made bad moves. So did Knight. So will Ferry, So did West, so did Ainge, so has Presti. You are raving like a lunatic about the Weather Forecast. You want a guarantee on your stock purchase. It doesn't happen. We could do exactly what you want us to do and end up like the Pistons for the next decade. What I'm saying Danny Ferry doesn't care if you only give him to midseason. You are doing this part-time for fun. He is doing for his lively hood. You think he will leave any stone unturned if he thinks it will get us a title? But, if he comes up short its not because he didn't listen to Wretch. We as fans take ourselves a little seriously sometimes. If you KNEW the formula to win a title you wouldn't be on this board typing to us "prisoners". Danny Ferry has a plan. Is it the right one? Who knows, but all any of us can honestly do is wait and see. Edited November 9, 2012 by sultanofatl

[Sothron]

I'm less worried about Ferry and his intentions in the offseason than I am a panicked A$G demanding he sign max deals to B level guys like Millsap and Jefferson.

[Wretch]

Dude, you act like this is mathematics and not alchemy. Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Melo, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady, Lebron, Chris Bosh, Wilt, Jabarr, Chuck etc. There is no magic formula to winning a title. Sure things in the draft don't equal to the championship belt. Yeah, babcock made bad moves. So did Knight. So will Ferry, So did West, so did Ainge, so has Presti. You are raving like a lunatic about the Weather Forecast. You want a guarantee on your stock purchase. It doesn't happen. We could do exactly what you want us to do and end up like the Pistons for the next decade. What I'm saying Danny Ferry doesn't care if you only give him to midseason. You are doing this part-time for fun. He is doing for his lively hood. You think he will leave any stone unturned if he thinks it will get us a title? But, if he comes up short its not because he didn't listen to Wretch. We as fans take ourselves a little seriously sometimes. If you KNEW the formula to win a title you wouldn't be on this board typing to us "prisoners". Danny Ferry has a plan. Is it the right one? Who knows, but all any of us can honestly do is wait and see.

Billy Knight got paid to make decisions and not listen to board posters - and would tell you and the rest of the world what he thought about your criticism. (Checkmate on whatever point you were trying to make about what Danny Ferry "thinks" of me).

I don't want a guarantee on my purchase. What I want is for this franchise to finally realize that you can't pin your hopes on maintaining a good team, while rebuilding. You don't get the impact draft picks you need to change things. You can't beat the best teams. You slowly fill your team with "good" players and you cap out at a 3,4,5 seed with no real chance at advancing past the 2nd round. It's not math. It's common sense and we've proven the formula for 20+ years.

The point that I give him until mid-season is for those who are saying "wait and see."

But I can end this thing right now...

I'm not doubting that a team can't be built. If we don't move one of Josh or Al, and we build around those two with a "decent" shooting guard and "serviceable big man." We are going to lose. We will continue to lose until we build a team with an identity. This again, is common sense. You stop worrying about the names (DWill, DRose, D12, CP3, LeBron, Kobe) and you start looking for the next one. You have to...and you do what it takes to get it. Regardless. You don't fear trades. Firing coaches. The draft. You fear nothing and you rebuild. The concept is foreign to you guys though, because you've never seen one in Atlanta.

I will gladly eat crow if I am wrong. But I won't be. I've already had this conversation with you, homeslice. Over several generations since 1997. I got the same response when I said there was no point to Mookie/Smitty/Deke. I'm telling you now, there's no point to this team without a franchise talent. None.

In 4-5 years, when we haven't done anything and you've shut up I'll have this same conversation with the next blind prisoner.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Wretch

[hazer]

How can you say both...

1. GM with loads of capspace.

2. Waiting on chemistry.

This is what Wretch is talking about. All the Chemistry in the world won't give us the finals product.

We need talent and organization.

1st.. take the good. -

2nd.. deal the parts that don't fit.

3rd... new coach.

4th... Grow together.

Capspace = Nothing in this NBA. Most teams will lock up the best players just so they don't have to worry about teams with capspace. Moreover, Atlanta has never been good at attracting FAs.

We need solid trades. Get back to the mold. Get a good draft pick.

You misinterpreted my post. HTB asked "Why invest the time to watch on TV or head downtown". I simply answered that they were an exciting bunch to watch NOW, and I also love the anticipation of something better with all the trade pieces and expirings. HTB also stated "There's something off about this team". To which I responded that was probably due to the current lack of chemistry, meaning it's only been a couple of games with 9 new faces. Relax, don't overthink it dude

[HawkItus]

Billy Knight got paid to make decisions and not listen to board posters - and would tell you and the rest of the world what he thought about your criticism. (Checkmate on whatever point you were trying to make about what Danny Ferry "thinks" of me).

I don't want a guarantee on my purchase. What I want is for this franchise to finally realize that you can't pin your hopes on maintaining a good team, while rebuilding. You don't get the impact draft picks you need to change things. You can't beat the best teams. You slowly fill your team with "good" players and you cap out at a 3,4,5 seed with no real chance at advancing past the 2nd round. It's not math. It's common sense and we've proven the formula for 20+ years.

The point that I give him until mid-season is for those who are saying "wait and see."

But I can end this thing right now...

I'm not doubting that a team can't be built. If we don't move one of Josh or Al, and we build around those two with a "decent" shooting guard and "serviceable big man." We are going to lose. We will continue to lose until we build a team with an identity. This again, is common sense. You stop worrying about the names (DWill, DRose, D12, CP3, LeBron, Kobe) and you start looking for the next one. You have to...and you do what it takes to get it. Regardless. You don't fear trades. Firing coaches. The draft. You fear nothing and you rebuild. The concept is foreign to you guys though, because you've never seen one in Atlanta.

I will gladly eat crow if I am wrong. But I won't be. I've already had this conversation with you, homeslice. Over several generations since 1997. I got the same response when I said there was no point to Mookie/Smitty/Deke. I'm telling you now, there's no point to this team without a franchise talent. None.

In 4-5 years, when we haven't done anything and you've shut up I'll have this same conversation with the next blind prisoner.

actually no, I've been around since the 'Nique years. I remember the truth and the whole truth about 'Nique. Pundits said he didn't have a let hand. He shot too much. He wasn't a team guy. I remember. We've had guys. That Mavs team that beat Miami, Dirk was the "superstar". What you offer is a suckers bet. Hawks against the field? Of course they probably won't cover. Especially when you have teams with 2 or 3 HOF players teaming up. My point is your plan is just a plan. If we blow up the team and get whoever you want out ot the draft, the next Lebron even, it will take years and luck to win it all. Lebron just got his. Dwight and CP3 are still waiting. Many great players never get them. There is no yellow brick road Wretch.

[Diesel]

isn't this exactly what Ferry is doing? It doesn't all happen on one day.

History will show that Smoove is not what we need. I believe he actually stunts the growth of our young players. We should move him now rather than later when his value declines.

[willthepureshooter]

How can you say both... 1. GM with loads of capspace. 2. Waiting on chemistry. This is what Wretch is talking about. All the Chemistry in the world won't give us the finals product. We need talent and organization. 1st.. take the good. 2nd.. deal the parts that don't fit. 3rd... new coach. 4th... Grow together.

When hasn't chemistry won championships? Have we forgot about the Detroit Pistons a couple years ago? I mean, you're contradicting yourself. You can have all the stars you want, but if there's no chemistry it won't get you anywhere. That's why teams PRACTICE TOGETHER AND PLAY TOGETHER...

[willthepureshooter]

Dude, you act like this is mathematics and not alchemy. Chris Paul, Dwight Howard, Melo, Yao Ming, Tracy McGrady, Lebron, Chris Bosh, Wilt, Jabarr, Chuck etc. There is no magic formula to winning a title. Sure things in the draft don't equal to the championship belt. Yeah, babcock made bad moves. So did Knight. So will Ferry, So did West, so did Ainge, so has Presti. You are raving like a lunatic about the Weather Forecast. You want a guarantee on your stock purchase. It doesn't happen. We could do exactly what you want us to do and end up like the Pistons for the next decade. What I'm saying Danny Ferry doesn't care if you only give him to midseason. You are doing this part-time for fun. He is doing for his lively hood. You think he will leave any stone unturned if he thinks it will get us a title? But, if he comes up short its not because he didn't listen to Wretch. We as fans take ourselves a little seriously sometimes. If you KNEW the formula to win a title you wouldn't be on this board typing to us "prisoners". Danny Ferry has a plan. Is it the right one? Who knows, but all any of us can honestly do is wait and see.

Agree x100000000000000

[Wretch]

Take Joe Johnson off of a floundering playoff team...and replace him with...basically nothing.

And people are thinking..."OMG! This is going to be new, exciting, and better!"

And I'm just like...

actually no, I've been around since the 'Nique years. I remember the truth and the whole truth about 'Nique. Pundits said he didn't have a let hand. He shot too much. He wasn't a team guy. I remember. We've had guys. That Mavs team that beat Miami, Dirk was the "superstar". What you offer is a suckers bet. Hawks against the field? Of course they probably won't cover. Especially when you have teams with 2 or 3 HOF players teaming up. My point is your plan is just a plan. If we blow up the team and get whoever you want out ot the draft, the next Lebron even, it will take years and luck to win it all. Lebron just got his. Dwight and CP3 are still waiting. Many great players never get them. There is no yellow brick road Wretch.

Dominique Wilkins is a Hall of Fame player and one of the NBA's most elite scorers of ALL TIME. Any argument that you could possibly make against him being the quality of talent we need is...invalid.

The Mavs beat Miami. Take away Dirk...and then crumble up your notes. Your point is invalid.

Blow up the team and try to draft a star...? What is so hard to understand people?

You are GOING TO see this talent at some point. You WILL see it. Somebody is going to draft it, trade for it, or sign it as a free agent. And you will COME FACE TO FACE with it. You can't escape it.

You will have a 7 game series with it...and YOU. WILL. LOSE.

I'm saying, put the focus on acquiring something that can carry the franchise and BUILD AROUND IT. Josh Smith is not that talent. Neither is Al Horford. Kept together, you're leaving the same framework that Joe Johnson worked with. You put the same type of engine back into that frame, you are going to get the same results. You put a better engine in that same frame, you STILL might get the same results.

Still...you have to find a better engine. And I guess you guys think there's this magical "serviceable big man" or a magical "3rd option on a contender" that's going to just *poof* make us magically great and draw all the fans...

Again...

GET. THE. GUY.

Get him.

GET HIS ASS IN A HAWKS UNIFORM AND BUILD AROUND HIM.

...and stop whining about how hard or impossible it is.