Does Dwight Howard fit in Houston?(or Atlanta & Dallas)

[HawkItus]

Considering Ferry reportedly refused to deal with Houston unless Asik AND Parsons were both in the deal at the deadline, then yeah, it would take more than Asik this time around as well. Ferry won't take on Asik's deal and help Houston for nothing.

Yeah, but we had more strength in our bargaining position. When Smith is a FA we have less control.

[Jody23]

Yeah, but we had more strength in our bargaining position. When Smith is a FA we have less control.

That would be true if it were only Smith they wanted and he was willing to accept less than max. However, if they wanted Smith and Howard, they would need the Hawks or another team to help them clear the cap space to do so. Otherwise, they wouldn't be able to land both. To get the Hawks or any other team to help, they would have to make it worth it. Asik alone won't cut it.

[thecampster]

I knew that I was right about those teams not being able to offer him the max. It's nice to see Coon backing that up! I still highly doubt he ends up in Atlanta as I would be 100 to 1 that he's staying in LA and even if he wanted to come to Atlanta I'm not entirely convinced I want him here.

Wait a minute there sparky. You gave me all kinds of crap earlier in the year about me stating you can't just sign people with cap space. That its more complicated than that and includes cap holds, etc. I need to go back and look at posts.

[Admin]

Wait a minute there sparky. You gave me all kinds of crap earlier in the year about me stating you can't just sign people with cap space. That its more complicated than that and includes cap holds, etc. I need to go back and look at posts.

Uhh what MaceCase and I corrected you on is not even remotely the same as teams in the offseason having max money to throw at Dwight. I really think you should leave that argument in the past as it made you look pretty bad. But if you'd like to drag it up again I'm sure it won't be difficult to find and you're welcome to get AHF and Hawksfanatic to double check what we corrected you on.

Edit - my mistake, AHF already weighed in on this and the gavel came down pretty hard on you.

Unless you're talking about something else, your argument was about teams not being able to trade for players if it puts them over the 15 player limit, which is incorrect as that team can simply buy out or make a player for cash deal or whatever to get under the player limit. You also claimed that the team trading for a player would only be able to waive players on non-guaranteed deals, which is incorrect.

You can start reading from this post on to remind yourself of your failed belief.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/377294-rockets-get-thomas-robinson-from-kings-for-patterson-aldrich-douglas-is-this-bait-to-get-josh/page-2#entry601450

[Atlantaholic]

I've seen enough of Dwight this season to know he's an uninspired, non-energetic, poorly-skilled, low IQ player. Besides his imposing physical presence, he brings nothing to the table but locker room issues, awful media quotes, and excuses for injury, All-Time pathetic free throw shooting, and payroll dominance. There are 100's of examples on film of him simply going to sleep in terms of team defense. He's just a glorified bum. Earl Clark and Jordan Hill routinely provide more of a boost to that team than he does.

He's had his worst season by a mile. Before this season you would have had your head examined if you didn't place Howard as a top five NBA player, let's not forget It wasn't long ago when he was contending with a team filled with average role players. Having said that, I also would be apprehensive about signing Dwight. His health is a big question mark, and his free throw shooting and turnovers are big warts to his game. Obviously it all comes down to who we'll get when we sign him, Orlando Dwight or LA Dwight? If it's Orlando Dwight he is worth the trouble, if he is LA Dwight then his faults will outweigh his merits.

[thecampster]

nope go farther back and no I didn't come out looking wrong on that...you requalified your statement after the fact

this is a completely separate issue

Uhh what MaceCase and I corrected you on is not even remotely the same as teams in the offseason having max money to throw at Dwight. I really think you should leave that argument in the past as it made you look pretty bad. But if you'd like to drag it up again I'm sure it won't be difficult to find and you're welcome to get AHF and Hawksfanatic to double check what we corrected you on.

Edit - my mistake, AHF already weighed in on this and the gavel came down pretty hard on you.

Unless you're talking about something else, your argument was about teams not being able to trade for players if it puts them over the 15 player limit, which is incorrect as that team can simply buy out or make a player for cash deal or whatever to get under the player limit. You also claimed that the team trading for a player would only be able to waive players on non-guaranteed deals, which is incorrect.

You can start reading from this post on to remind yourself of your failed belief.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/377294-rockets-get-thomas-robinson-from-kings-for-patterson-aldrich-douglas-is-this-bait-to-get-josh/page-2#entry601450

[thecampster]

A

As long as you're going to bring AHF in on this...how about we quote some of you and AHF's more brilliant takes on cap, players and what we can do. Do you remember last year when I kept saying Joe Johnson was gone? Well here was your's and AHF's take on JJ's future as a hawk.

Source:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/368289-build-around-our-big-3-horford-smith-teague/page-2

AHF

The idea that this team can shed enough salary go go after a max contract player is totally unrealistic, IMO. Even if they somehow did, why would that max player want to come here instead of Dallas or NJ, etc. If we managed to shed JJ or traded Josh for a pick or something that shed major salary, we would not be in the market for a max free agent.

Dolfan

Better figure something else out as JJ isn't likely to be going anywhere for 2-3 more years at least.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/368416-cunningham-blog-on-hawks-salary-cap/page-2

This is a great one. Full of great Dolfan/AHF facts on what we can, can't do. We'll sample this one

There is probably no chance that we're trading Marvin and getting cap space for it. He's just not that valuable. You're putting him in the same league as a guy like Lamar Odom who was coming off of winning the 6th man of the year and even then it took a team with a trade exception and no fear of the luxury tax to trade for him. Marvin is an extraordinarily average player and nobody is going to give up 8 million of their cap space for him.

Or we can just quote me from that same thread in May of last year

Sadly, thinking that "Josh" will go when he has no cap hit next year and the problem gets worse with JJ's salary and Teague's impending new salary is financial suicide. This would propel the team toward the lottery in the future. The only solution is moving JJ for 3 low-mid-level salary players to spread out the salary. True that Josh would yield more in return, but Josh's salary is more akin to a trade deadline deal and not an off-season deal. JJ for 3 average players creates more flexibility (think the Melo to NY deal).

It's like I'm psychic. wooooaahhh scary.

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/369587-will-hawks-amnesty-joe-cant-afford-to-miss-out-on-this-opportunity/page-3

Just another place where I again called that JJ for players and picks was the way to go and realistic.

Still filtering posts. I wish we had a comparison feature that would show only threads that both you and I posted in.

[coachx]

You must admit it was pretty hard to imagine that Ferry would be able to pull off trading both Marvin and JJ for expiring contracts and 1st and 2nd round draft pick. Ferry pulled a magic trick with that. Was it impossible ? No.

[Admin]

Wow you are really coming off as a total douche here. 1st off no YOU are the one who started changing things up. Both Macecase and myself continued to say the same thing over and over again. And you know this is a message board and someone speculating whether or not a player with a considered untradeable contract will be traded or not and then going back after and criticizing people for being wrong about him being traded is just... ah nevermind I'm not going to engage you on this. I'm about this [---] close to making you the 1st person I've ever put on ignore here. So please continue to act like this and I'll be glad to do so.

[AHF]

s long as you're going to bring AHF in on this...how about we quote some of you and AHF's more brilliant takes on cap, players and what we can do. Do you remember last year when I kept saying Joe Johnson was gone? Well here was your's and AHF's take on JJ's future as a hawk.

Source:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/368289-build-around-our-big-3-horford-smith-teague/page-2

The idea that this team can shed enough salary go go after a max contract player is totally unrealistic, IMO. Even if they somehow did, why would that max player want to come here instead of Dallas or NJ, etc. If we managed to shed JJ or traded Josh for a pick or something that shed major salary, we would not be in the market for a max free agent.

AHF

This is a great one. Full of great Dolfan/AHF facts on what we can, can't do. We'll sample this one

It's like I'm psychic. wooooaahhh scary.

LMAO at someone making fun of me for saying that we weren't going to clear enough cap space to sign a maximum free agent LAST SUMMER.

The idea that this team can shed enough salary go go after a max contract player is totally unrealistic, IMO. Even if they somehow did, why would that max player want to come here instead of Dallas or NJ, etc. If we managed to shed JJ or traded Josh for a pick or something that shed major salary, we would not be in the market for a max free agent.

This thread was talking about the Hawks making a play for Deron Williams LAST SUMMER - which I called totally unrealistic.

If Atlanta ...[executes a fantasy plan]...They will have still have around 16 to 15 mil which means we have enough for a max deal player like Deron Williams.

If we could get a top 3 pick for him though and then have the ability to go after Deron with a max deal that's a no brainer. Deron is one of the best players in the world and the kind that can take a team from good to great.

Did we clear enough cap space to sign a free agent last summer? No. Was it unrealistic to expect that to happen? Yes.

So let's see exactly what thecampster is calling me out on:

If we managed to shed JJ or traded Josh for a pick or something that shed major salary, we would not be in the market for a max free agent.

So I said that if we shed JJ, we still would not be in the market for a maximum free agent and that is exactly what happened! We shed JJ and could not afford a max free agent.

Where is the beef?

Edited April 10, 2013 by AHF

[macdaddy]

You must admit it was pretty hard to imagine that Ferry would be able to pull off trading both Marvin and JJ for expiring contracts and 1st and 2nd round draft pick. Ferry pulled a magic trick with that. Was it impossible ? No.

Exactly. And lets face it, a russian billionaire moving a team to brooklyn and trying to compete with the Knicks for local attention, and losing out on attracting dwight and needing to load up on all stars, isn't a situation that comes along very often. I thought joe was tradeable to dallas or somewhere but they proved to be smarter than that.

Everything said about Marvin and his tradeability is as true today as it was back then. Utah screwed up.

[MaceCase]

No good ever comes of post-digging

But one needs to first establish the context of the posts of which they are digging and how and why they were applied at the time.

I'm sure everyone and their mother has speculated on basketball moves and even on how the rapture will begin and I'm sure they have or will probably hit on exactly how it goes down once or twice but pleaaaase let's not act as if they are clairvoyant when a miracle did occur.

[thecampster]

No I think the point is made Dolfan. Our memories are very short. Coach's point of "who could have imagined" is simple. I spoke specifically in my posts about the Hawks moving Marvin and JJ. I said moving Josh or Al made less sense. I explained exactly how JJ would be moved and I said Marvin could be moved for what a team would consider excess talent. These are just examples that you guys perceive your takes were brilliant but in the end turned out to be flat wrong.

The posts I was looking for had to do with my assertions last year about signing players and I think they fell off the board (apr 2012). You, I, Mace etc were having discussions when the first mention of amnesty was reported. It was very similar to the discussion you are referencing but it was one of our first jumps on the board into the forgotten cost of empty roster spots being cap holds and free agent cap hold being about 50% higher than their last salary.

I remember it because up until that point you and I really didn't disagree much but you came down pretty hard back then before others chimed in and clarified how amnesty and cap holds affect the ability to sign players.

[AHF]

No I think the point is made Dolfan. Our memories are very short. Coach's point of "who could have imagined" is simple. I spoke specifically in my posts about the Hawks moving Marvin and JJ. I said moving Josh or Al made less sense. I explained exactly how JJ would be moved and I said Marvin could be moved for what a team would consider excess talent. These are just examples that you guys perceive your takes were brilliant but in the end turned out to be flat wrong.

The quote you made of me didn't involve you speculating on moving Marvin or JJ. And your use of that quote as an example of my flawed analysis was just wrong. Not sure where you were going with that. I am sure you could find better quotes where I talked about how hard it would be to clean JJ off the books as cleanly as Ferry did, but using a quote in which I was saying that the idea of landing Deron Williams during last summer's FA period was wishful thinking because we weren't going to have cap room to land a max contract slot to sign Deron last summer even if we moved JJ just puzzles me.

Edited April 10, 2013 by AHF