You can't draft for a championship

[EazyRoc]

Really HIGH hopes but that team could look like RondoRay Allen mini lite small versionKawhi (Scott needs to work on defense, but that can be taught)HorfordBig Ibaka/Tyson Chandler That is DEFINITELY a championship team. Who knows if they turn out anything like these players, but with growth and experience who knows? Not to mention we could have Millsap off the bench playing 30 minutes for that team. If he decides to stick around, and any other FA we pick up.

Kawhi is leaps and bounds better than Scott at every aspect of the game. He will never be able to defend SFs effectively. Bebe may never make an NBA roster and you want to compare him to the best defenders in this league ? Lol. Schröder as a Rondo ? Do you work for Hawks PR or something ? Edited July 16, 2013 by EazyRoc

[Wretch]

Hawksfanatic......Im only responding because tapatalk doesn't filter you. You can sling all the insults you want. Your opinion is invalid and your own reading comprehension is faulty. I was responding to someone who alluded to the old CBA having some relevance on a teams ability to keep their FA's. Which it did, only it didn't afford much help (like it does today, which is all that really matters). We're also talking about the same thing when it comes to Bird and...um...BIRD rights? Youre taking the way that I made the comment and attempting to twist it into "he doesn't even know that Bird is the catalyst for Bird rights.". I know what these rules are, why they were established, and what they mean...because im almost 40 and Ive been a fan of the NBA and the draft since I was like 10 years old. I was watching every year as the changes were suggested, discussed, and implemented. I just dont care enough about you or the minutia of the CBA to spar with you over it. Which is what you want...to prove that you are better or more knowledgeable than me. Nice how you make the personal attack too...while you know that you're on my ignore list. Quite cowardly. Even for the Internet. Also, you can be sure that I dont get any of my information or source for my opinions from anything you have ever said. I like to research things and form my own conclusions. Dolfan, i want nothing to do with this kind of nonsense. Please see if you can convince this gentleman to refrain from the aggressive personal attacks...or Ill just bow out and leave the site. Pssshr, id like to continue this chat with you, but Ive taken my talents to south beach (I'm on vacay in Miami with the fam lol). I'll pick this up with you later, but at least you understand where I'm coming from. I'm not a TANK TANK TANK TANK TANK poster.

[Afro]

David Robinson ?Also, You're doing a lot of wishful thinking if you believe Schröder can become Parker like, Jenkins can become Manu like, and Horford can become Duncan. Its a stretch. If that's what were are banking on, we will probably be disappointed year in and year out.Hell, I'm not convinced the Spurs make it to the Finals if some of their competitors didn't get bit by the injury bug. That team definitely does not beat Miami unless James is hurt.

Youd rather bank on guys that have never played higher than high school becoming the next Lebron James? One of the top 3 players EVER?

I just dont get the point of being negative about the team we have in hopes of destroying it and building another team that is full of question marks.

[Diesel]

Somebody said that the 2006 draft wasn't strong and at the time wasn't considered to be strong. So let's look at 2005:

1.-Milwaukee -Andrew Bogut 7-0 251 C Utah So.

2.-Atlanta-Marvin Williams 6-8 228 SF UNC Fr.

3.-*Utah -Deron Williams 6-3 202 PG Illinois Jr.

4.-NewOrleans -Chris Paul 6-1 178 PG Wake Forest So.

5.-Charlotte-Raymond Felton 6-1 200 PG UNC Jr.

6.-*Portland-Martell Webster 6-7 230 SG/SF WA HSSr.

7.-Toronto-Charlie Villanueva 6-10 237 PF Conn So.

8.-New York-Channing Frye 6-11 244 C Arizona Sr.

9.-Golden St.-Ike Diogu 6-8 255 PF Arizona St. Jr.

10.-LA Lakers -Andrew Bynum 7-0 280 C UConn HSSr.

11.-Orlando-Fran Vazquez 6-10 230 PF Spain 1983

12.-LA Clippers -Yaroslav Korolev 6-9 220 SF Rus. 1987

13.-*Charlotte -Sean May 6-8 260 PF North Carolina Jr.

14.-Minnesota-Rashad McCants 6-4 201 SG UNC Jr.

From here, only 1 of these players have played in a NBA finals. (Bynum). The rest (in this strong draft) have not come close.

Oh.. Ok, 2005 had some duds... Well, let's get the strongclass of 2004..

1.-Orlando-Dwight Howard 6-10 240 PF GA HSSr.

2.-Charlotte-Emeka Okafor 6-10 257 PF/C UConn Jr.

3.-Chicago-Ben Gordon 6-2 192 PG UConn Jr.

4.-LA Clippers-Shaun Livingston 6-7 186 PG IL HSSr.

5.-*Dallas-Devin Harris 6-3 170 PG Wisconsin Jr.

6.-Atlanta-Josh Childress 6-7 196 SG/SF Stanford Jr.

7.-*Chicago-Luol Deng 6-8 220 SF Duke Fr.

8.-Toronto-Rafael Araujo 6-11 280 C BYU Sr.

9.-Philadelphia -Andre Iguodala 6-7 217 SG/SF Ariz. So.

10.-Cleveland -Luke Jackson 6-7 212 SG/SF Oregon Sr.

11.-Golden State -Andris Biedrins 6-11 240 PF/C (Lat) 1986

12.-Seattle-Robert Swift 7-0 245 C CA HSSr.

13.-Portland-Sebastian Telfair 6-0 170 PG NY HSSr.

14.-Utah -Kris Humphries 6-9 238 PF Minnesota Fr.

Only players to see a finals - Dwight Howard and Devin Harris (I think). Neither won.

Point is that the draft is a good place to find assets and you have to be LUCKY to find a player that will help you win a championship. We Marvel over how well a team does in team building. However, the truth is that there are only a few championship quality players that will ever be draft and most of them require other top players to help them get there.

You remove Duncan, Kobe, KG, Shaq, and Lebron from the NBA... There's most of the NBA championships of the modern era. 5 players.

[Afro]

Kawhi is leaps and bounds better than Scott at every aspect of the game. He will never be able to defend SFs effectively. Bebe may never make an NBA roster and you want to compare him to the best defenders in this league ? Lol. Schröder as a Rondo ? Do you work for Hawks PR or something ?

You use the word never like it is going out of style. How do you know? Players dont improve? All the players you have mentioned have only played one or fewer years in the NBA. They're growing.

I find it odd that you say im unrealistic in my positive desires, but you can say a player CANT do something and it be alright.

[Nicholasp27]

Kg only won one, like dirkReally it's Kobe, shaq, Lebron, DuncanAnd 2/4 of those switched teams during prime

[EazyRoc]

You use the word never like it is going out of style. How do you know? Players dont improve? All the players you have mentioned have only played one or fewer years in the NBA. They're growing. I find it odd that you say im unrealistic in my positive desires, but you can say a player CANT do something and it be alright.

Scott, due to athletic limitations, will never be able to defend SFs effectively. Never. Schröder could be great, but the odds are stacked against Bebe. So much, that it is widely accepted that he may not make our roster this year. However, you are comparing him to 2 of the best defensive bogs in our league. You are reaching and need to be more realistic in your assessments.

[EazyRoc]

Somebody said that the 2006 draft wasn't strong and at the time wasn't considered to be strong. So let's look at 2005:

1.-Milwaukee -Andrew Bogut 7-0 251 C Utah So.

2.-Atlanta-Marvin Williams 6-8 228 SF UNC Fr.

3.-*Utah -Deron Williams 6-3 202 PG Illinois Jr.

4.-NewOrleans -Chris Paul 6-1 178 PG Wake Forest So.

5.-Charlotte-Raymond Felton 6-1 200 PG UNC Jr.

6.-*Portland-Martell Webster 6-7 230 SG/SF WA HSSr.

7.-Toronto-Charlie Villanueva 6-10 237 PF Conn So.

8.-New York-Channing Frye 6-11 244 C Arizona Sr.

9.-Golden St.-Ike Diogu 6-8 255 PF Arizona St. Jr.

10.-LA Lakers -Andrew Bynum 7-0 280 C UConn HSSr.

11.-Orlando-Fran Vazquez 6-10 230 PF Spain 1983

12.-LA Clippers -Yaroslav Korolev 6-9 220 SF Rus. 1987

13.-*Charlotte -Sean May 6-8 260 PF North Carolina Jr.

14.-Minnesota-Rashad McCants 6-4 201 SG UNC Jr.

From here, only 1 of these players have played in a NBA finals. (Bynum). The rest (in this strong draft) have not come close.

Oh.. Ok, 2005 had some duds... Well, let's get the strongclass of 2004..

1.-Orlando-Dwight Howard 6-10 240 PF GA HSSr.

2.-Charlotte-Emeka Okafor 6-10 257 PF/C UConn Jr.

3.-Chicago-Ben Gordon 6-2 192 PG UConn Jr.

4.-LA Clippers-Shaun Livingston 6-7 186 PG IL HSSr.

5.-*Dallas-Devin Harris 6-3 170 PG Wisconsin Jr.

6.-Atlanta-Josh Childress 6-7 196 SG/SF Stanford Jr.

7.-*Chicago-Luol Deng 6-8 220 SF Duke Fr.

8.-Toronto-Rafael Araujo 6-11 280 C BYU Sr.

9.-Philadelphia -Andre Iguodala 6-7 217 SG/SF Ariz. So.

10.-Cleveland -Luke Jackson 6-7 212 SG/SF Oregon Sr.

11.-Golden State -Andris Biedrins 6-11 240 PF/C (Lat) 1986

12.-Seattle-Robert Swift 7-0 245 C CA HSSr.

13.-Portland-Sebastian Telfair 6-0 170 PG NY HSSr.

14.-Utah -Kris Humphries 6-9 238 PF Minnesota Fr.

Only players to see a finals - Dwight Howard and Devin Harris (I think). Neither won.

Point is that the draft is a good place to find assets and you have to be LUCKY to find a player that will help you win a championship. We Marvel over how well a team does in team building. However, the truth is that there are only a few championship quality players that will ever be draft and most of them require other top players to help them get there.

You remove Duncan, Kobe, KG, Shaq, and Lebron from the NBA... There's most of the NBA championships of the modern era. 5 players.

In the last 30 years, more teams have won ships with players they drafted than not. Have a nice day and don't hurt yourself trying to avoid admitting you're wrong.

[Guest]

In the last 30 years, more teams have won ships with players they drafted than not. Have a nice day and don't hurt yourself trying to avoid admitting you're wrong.

You realize there wasn't any unrestricted free agency 25 years ago, right? Because it sounds like you are ignoring any changes that may have occurred in how you can acquire players in those past 30 years.

Edited July 16, 2013 by hawksfanatic

[Admin]

Just as I have said before, a moron who doesn't understand a lick about the CBA. The evidence is right here. Bird Rights came because of Larry Bird. You are trying to make it seem like he had nothing to do with him, but the cause of Bird Rights was to illustrate the situation that the Celtics would be put in if they were salary capped at the time. And when Bird was signed by the Celtics in 1983, the Bird Exception *did exist* however, the Celtics did not need to use it because they did not operate with a salary cap at the time.

"Prior to Bird Rights" referred to ONE season any team was hard capped (5 in 1983 actually). Before 1983, teams were not capped as there was no salary cap then (if you want to be accurate, there was one season in the 40s but that is it for caps). So the whole reference of some teams being handicapped to retain their own free agents referred to only ONE time in NBA history. In 1983, only a few teams were hard capped because they exceeded the agreed upon salary cap that was to be implemented in 1984-85. Any team below what would be the 84-85 salary cap in 1983 ($3.6m) were not operating with a cap and could spend as much money as they so choosed. The Celtics ended up spending $5m on just 6 players because they did not operate with a salary cap.

He clearly got this information from an article I posted to give him a reference on Bird Rights: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2010/05/sports-legends-revealed-how-did-the-larry-bird-exception-to-the-nba-salary-cap-get-its-name.html The funny thing is his reading comprehension is so bad that he does not understand what actually happened. Of course his response was something like "oh yeah I so too know about Bird Rights and all of this stuff!!! [insert Big Dog reference]" This information clearly goes against his argument, but he is so shortsighted and dense that he cannot understand this.

No Wretch, you don't know shit. It was undoubtedly easier to retain players before 1984. Before 1988 there was no unrestricted free agency! So the only debatable times of whether it was easier/harder to retain players than it currently is is around 1988 to 2010. Undoubtedly, 1995-98 was harder to retain players because there was no restricted free agency. The other times it is debatable because the rookie scale did not come in to play until after 1994 and the individual max was not put in to play until 1998.

This goes for everyone. There is definitely no need for this aggressive of a response. I know that not everyone here has the same level of knowledge about these types of topics but if you don't agree with it then either respond in a civil manner or don't respond at all.

[terrell]

Dirk, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Dr. J (can't remember if he was drafted or just joined the 76ers after the merger) basically almost every team that's won a ship in the last 30 years drafted their stars.

Charlotte drafted Kobe. And Dr J was drafted by Milwaukee. So you're back down to 5. lol Edited July 16, 2013 by terrell

[EazyRoc]

You realize there wasn't any unrestricted free agency 25 years ago, right? Because it sounds like you are ignoring any changes that may have occurred in how you can acquire players in those past 30 years.

I didn't know, but lets change the argument to the last 25 years. Nothing changes.

[EazyRoc]

Charlotte drafted Kobe. And Dr J was drafted by Milwaukee. So you're back down to 5. lol

Kobe was traded to the Lakers on draft day. He was never a part of the Hornets team. Dr. J was just a guess, I'm not old enough to remember. With all that being said, more teams have drafted key pieces and won than not in the last 25 years. Edited July 16, 2013 by EazyRoc

[terrell]

Outside of Duncan the Spurs were built through mid and late round picks. How is that different then us? Horford(3rd)Schröder(mid)Bebe(mid)Musc(late)Cunningham(trade/later round)Jenkins(mid-late)Scott(late) All those players could really become something in this league. People can say that these guys are crap and wont win us anything, but how can we know? Theyre all rookies/2nd year guys outside of Horford. Who is to say 3-4 years from now SchröderJenkinsScottHorfordBebe wont be equal talent level to the Spurs?

The Anti DF crew that's who.

[Guest]

Charlotte drafted Kobe. And Dr J was drafted by Milwaukee. So you're back down to 5. lol

Why'd you do that - now the discussion will start again regarding draft day trades, and who really drafted and traded for whom and who traded what pick, blah blah blah etc. Oh and wasn't Dirk drafted by Milwaukee. :-). Lol. Edited July 16, 2013 by JayBirdHawk

[EazyRoc]

The Anti DF crew that's who.

I like DF and still think he's being overly optimistic.

[terrell]

Kobe was traded to the Lakers on draft day. He was never a part of the Hornets team. Dr. J was musty a guess, I'm not old enough to remember. With all that being said, more teams have drafted key pieces and won than not in the last 25 years.

Drafted and traded are two different things. Who's to say we wont trade up(with all the flexibility we have) into the lottery next year? Whos to say Teague ,Horford, Schröder, Bebe, Jenkins, etc.... wont be key pieces to a championship? smh

[EazyRoc]

Drafted and traded are two different things. Who's to say we wont trade up(with all the flexibility we have) into the lottery next year? Whos to say Teague ,Horford, Schröder, Bebe, Jenkins, etc.... wont be key pieces to a championship? smh

Let me clarify then. The day before the draft the Lakers traded Divac for the Hornets pick and instructed the Hornets who they wanted them to draft. So they drafted him by proxy.

[Admin]

I agree that for all intents and purposes the Lakers drafted Kobe.

[Guest]

I didn't know, but lets change the argument to the last 25 years. Nothing changes.

Unrestricted free agency started in 1988, so anything beyond that year gives you an OK idea of what teams have been built like since that avenue opened up. I would still point out that teams who acquired players before 1988 usually signed them to contracts longer than 1 year, so the true effects aren't likely to be realized until a few years after that date.

And also, the individual maximum salary did not come in to play until 1998. So combine that with teams having Bird Rights on players and you can see how the Bulls would have never lost Jordan (nor did they ever have a legitimate chance to lose him since there was no max salary) when his 7 year $25m contract was up (it was reported to be for 8 years, which is true but it covered 7 seasons. No one on earth would say Elton Brand has a 2 year contract with us now would they?). Chicago could exceed the cap by any amount they wished with Jordan's Bird rights. Other teams could only offer Jordan how much cap space they had. And when Jordan completed his 1988 contract, his new one-year contract in 96-97 ($30,140,000) was higher than any salary cap ever seen in the sport. The NBA salary cap did not exceed Jordan's 96-97 salary until the 1999-2000 season!

So I think if you are honest with yourself, there are the effects of unrestricted free agency and the maximum salary are two big issues that make it hard to look 30 years ago and compare how teams were built then to how you can build teams today.

But take a look at the recent teams who won. I think it is reasonable to say that drafting was not the main component to the ~10-15 most recent championships. Of course, it is hard to define what percent of your team needs to be acquired by free agency or trades to sufficiently say a team did not build through the draft. Whatever it is, I do not think this is a cut and dry answer of "they all were built through the draft."

Edited July 16, 2013 by hawksfanatic