You can't draft for a championship

[Afro]

People say "These players were drafted, you have to build through the draft" like we arent going to draft anyone.....

Do yall just expect to trade every draft pick? We have a top 3 pick on the team already. Who can say when it is all said and done he wont become a great with a better cast around him?

Yes we need more quality players. Everyone knows that. Tanking will lose us the players we currently have, plus any player that may want to come here.

So like I and MANY people have said before, if you tank you will be tanking for YEARS and just praying it works out.

[terrell]

I agree that for all intents and purposes the Lakers drafted Kobe.

Ok, so he named 6. lol. My point is you have to draft well AND keep flexibility. Doesn't matter if its in the lottery or not. Tanking and looking for the next MJ or Kobe is just laughable in my opinion. Ever heard of the draft lottery guys? You can tank and still end up with an avg player. Then what? Just keep tanking until LBJ falls into our laps? No owner in their right minds would just keep losing games and money waiting on the next "superstar". Even when you find that "superstar", you still have to have the right pieces around him. Its all about flexibility. Im done arguing with the tanking crew. Not calling you a member. Just sayin.

[Admin]

Ok, so he named 6. lol. My point is you have to draft well AND keep flexibility. Doesn't matter if its in the lottery or not. Tanking and looking for the next MJ or Kobe is just laughable in my opinion. Ever heard of the draft lottery guys? You can tank and still end up with an avg player. Then what? Just keep tanking until LBJ falls into our laps? No owner in their right minds would just keep losing games and money waiting on the next "superstar". Even when you find that "superstar", you still have to have the right pieces around him. Its all about flexibility. Im done arguing with the tanking crew. Not calling you a member. Just sayin.

I agree, I am not one of those who want to be in the dregs of the lottery praying for a player to pan out. I'd rather take the Pacers strategy of drafting after the 10th pick and drafting smartly. I think we've done that the past 2 years taking 2 guys with star potential in Nogueira and Schröder and a guy who should be a good starter in Jenkins plus a couple of solid fringe starter-role players in Scott and Muscala. We've probably done better in these 2 drafts alone than Babcock did his entire time as the Hawks GM.

[Admin]

If he never said he understood the CBA, then I would never have belittled him like he belittled my arguments based upon the CBA in another thread. He clearly doesn't understand the CBA, so I had to say something. Of course I had too many "morons" and "idiots" in there, so I apologize for that tone.

I need like a marketing language filter where all of my insults are replaced with sunshine or rainbows.

Keep out the moron and idiot words and you can be as much of an asshole as you enjoy being :)

And keep in mind there's a difference between understanding the CBA like many of us here do, and having CBA toilet paper and bed sheets like you do.

[Diesel]

Kg only won one, like dirkReally it's Kobe, shaq, Lebron, DuncanAnd 2/4 of those switched teams during prime

Exactly.

The tanking for a superstar who can win a championship has to be so accurate that it's almost impossible.

Championship teams trade draft picks to bad teams for their superstars to build a championship.

[EazyRoc]

Unrestricted free agency started in 1988, so anything beyond that year gives you an OK idea of what teams have been built like since that avenue opened up. I would still point out that teams who acquired players before 1988 usually signed them to contracts longer than 1 year, so the true effects aren't likely to be realized until a few years after that date. And also, the individual maximum salary did not come in to play until 1998. So combine that with teams having Bird Rights on players and you can see how the Bulls would have never lost Jordan (nor did they ever have a legitimate chance to lose him since there was no max salary) when his 7 year $25m contract was up (it was reported to be for 8 years, which is true but it covered 7 seasons. No one on earth would say Elton Brand has a 2 year contract with us now would they?). Chicago could exceed the cap by any amount they wished. Other teams could only offer Jordan how much cap space they had. And when Jordan completed his 1988 contract, his salary in 96-97 ($30,140,000) was higher than any salary cap ever seen in the sport. The NBA salary cap did not exceed Jordan's 96-97 salary until the 1999-2000 season! So I think if you are honest with yourself, there are the effects of unrestricted free agency and the maximum salary are two big issues that make it hard to look 30 years ago and compare how teams were built then to how you can build teams today. But take a look at the recent teams who won. I think it is reasonable to say that drafting was not the main component to the ~10-15 most recent championships. Of course, it is hard to define what percent of your team needs to be acquired by free agency or trades to sufficiently say a team did not build through the draft. Whatever it is, I do not think this is a cut and dry answer of "they all were built through the draft."

There has been more championship teams that drafted one of their top 2 players than not in the last 15 years. So maybe not built entirely through the draft, but they used the draft not only to get one of their key pieces, but used the draft to get the assets to bring the other important pieces too. Lakers with Shaq and Celtics with KG as examples.

[Diesel]

There has been more championship teams that drafted one of their top 2 players than not in the last 15 years. So maybe not built entirely through the draft, but they used the draft not only to get one of their key pieces, but used the draft to get the assets to bring the other important pieces too. Lakers with Shaq and Celtics with KG as examples.

Both examples that you cite are examples of players who grew tired of the merry go round and forced their team to trade them. When you plan to make your team a tank team, this is what can happen. Somebody made the studious observation that tanking is not a one and done venture. So true. Minny, Charlotte, Cleveland and Toronto are mainstays in the lottery. You can throw in Orlando too. You can blame management all you want but somewhere along the way, the FO decided that they would try to build "through the draft".

When you do that, you become a feeder to championship teams. Just watch.

[terrell]

I agree, I am not one of those who want to be in the dregs of the lottery praying for a player to pan out. I'd rather take the Pacers strategy of drafting after the 10th pick and drafting smartly. I think we've done that the past 2 years taking 2 guys with star potential in Nogueira and Schröder and a guy who should be a good starter in Jenkins plus a couple of solid fringe starter-role players in Scott and Muscala. We've probably done better in these 2 drafts alone than Babcock did his entire time as the Hawks GM.

Agreed. I just cant understand the hate. If DF traded for LBJ and KD, some of these fools would say we gave up too much. Guarantee it. lol.

[EazyRoc]

Both examples that you cite are examples of players who grew tired of the merry go round and forced their team to trade them. When you plan to make your team a tank team, this is what can happen. Somebody made the studious observation that tanking is not a one and done venture. So true. Minny, Charlotte, Cleveland and Toronto are mainstays in the lottery. You can throw in Orlando too. You can blame management all you want but somewhere along the way, the FO decided that they would try to build "through the draft". When you do that, you become a feeder to championship teams. Just watch.

To be clear, I'm not in favor of purposely losing for a draft pick. I think we should give our rookies as many minutes as possible since we aren't competing for a championship. If we do that, I think we would be one of the worse teams in the league without trying to lose on purpose.

[Diesel]

To be clear, I'm not in favor of purposely losing for a draft pick. I think we should give our rookies as many minutes as possible since we aren't competing for a championship. If we do that, I think we would be one of the worse teams in the league without trying to lose on purpose.

Semantics.

At the end of the day, these Rooks might not mean anything to us. IF Boston calls and says they're trying to clear capspace for whatever and they wanted to trade us Rondo for Dennis... Wouldn't you do it?

For me I looked at the BS that the fans here were on when they started talking about Dennis and Bebe being the future this and the future that and starting them now... and it's the best plan and let's get rid of anybody who can play so that they can get more time. However, 2 weeks earlier, same guys were saying CP3 and D12 this and that and even after we drafted said guys, there was no pointing to the future. Not until after CP3 was off the table.

My point is that these guys can come and go with the wind.

It's not like we have an Anthony Davis or a Damain Lillard on the team. If we had somebody with that much talent and potential and we had nothing on our team.. no Horf no Millsap.. then yeah. However, we might just have a chance to be better than anybody can conclude.

[Nicholasp27]

Lakers traded divas for Kobe on draft dayWe could do the same thing and trade on of our players for a lotto pickYou don't have to tank to build through draft...ny and nj both have given up tons of unprotected picks over the years to acquire players...We have assets and cap flexibility so we can trade for picks and upcoming young players and we can take on bad contracts for picks and upcoming young playersThe real key is to identify those players, so need good scouting and drafting, which we seem to have nowWe have good scouting, good flexibility, a likely good coach and good system so we really can be one or two pieces away from contending unlike the teams who get a good player but don't have the system, coach, scouting or flexibility to build around them and lose them (minny likely next to lose love)

[AHF]

If he never said he understood the CBA, then I would never have belittled him like he belittled my arguments based upon the CBA in another thread. He clearly doesn't understand the CBA, so I had to say something. Of course I had too many "morons" and "idiots" in there, so I apologize for that tone.

I need like a marketing language filter where all of my insults are replaced with sunshine or rainbows.

A good rule of thumb is that if you are simply pointing out someone is wrong then you are 100% fine.

If you are belittling them, then you should rethink your post.

[AHF]

Championship teams trade draft picks to bad teams for their superstars to build a championship.

I have seen lottery picks moved for draft picks or stars who aren't free agents that translate into superstar (like in the trades for Pippen, Allen, Paul, Deron, Carmelo, Shaq, etc.) but which trades involve mid-round picks for superstars?

[Diesel]

I have seen lottery picks moved for draft picks or stars who aren't free agents that translate into superstar (like in the trades for Pippen, Allen, Paul, Deron, Carmelo, Shaq, etc.) but which trades involve mid-round picks for superstars?

We sent Boris Diaw and some middle rounders for Joe Johnson (6 time allstar).

When the big three in Miami was put together, didn't Miami give up a midrounder for bosh?

The first thing in trading for said stars is that you have to make the place that they are going to enticing. You can't do that by hanging on to a reputation that you tank to get draft picks (especially when you have allstar talent on the team).

[AHF]

We sent Boris Diaw and some middle rounders for Joe Johnson (6 time allstar).

When the big three in Miami was put together, didn't Miami give up a midrounder for bosh?

The first thing in trading for said stars is that you have to make the place that they are going to enticing. You can't do that by hanging on to a reputation that you tank to get draft picks (especially when you have allstar talent on the team).

It was only by getting a lucky bounce of the ball that we didn't send Diaw, a middle rounder (Rajon Rondo), and the #4 overall pick in the draft for JJ. Phoenix was calculating that as a lottery pick, IMO. It was top 3 protected in 2007 (when we were most likely to end up with the #4 or #5 pick) and unprotected in 2008.

More importantly, JJ was a free agent and wasn't a superstar (and never became one).

[AHF]

We have seriously got to get another trendy topic on this board other than the tanking treadmill talk.

I feel like we have pretty well plowed that topic at this point. A break would be nice.

[Diesel]

It was only by getting a lucky bounce of the ball that we didn't send Diaw, a middle rounder (Rajon Rondo), and the #4 overall pick in the draft for JJ. Phoenix was calculating that as a lottery pick, IMO. It was top 3 protected in 2007 (when we were most likely to end up with the #4 or #5 pick) and unprotected in 2008.

More importantly, JJ was a free agent and wasn't a superstar (and never became one).

There will be lots of non superstar free agents who will be able to be obtained by us because we have the assets to trade. Some of those non superstar free agents like Joe will be ready to bloom while playing with us.

[Admin]

I feel like we have pretty well plowed that topic at this point. A break would be nice.

Ashley Judd has spent less time being plowed than this topic at this point!

[Buzzard]

Well sure you can...and it's been done WAY more often than not.

(now I count getting rooks in trades about the same as draft picks)

Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar - famous co-pilot in the "Airplane" movie and leading scorer in the NBA) got a championship for his first team.

Larry Bird managed to get three championships for the Celtics...Magic Johnson managed to get four for the Lakers,

Micheal Jordan...drafted third by the Chicago Bulls...managed to help them along to six championships.

David Robinson and Tim Duncan were both drafted by the Spurs.

In truth...almost all championship teams have been created due to the draft.

Of course they are. That is how 99% of players get into the NBA to begin with. But thinking you have to tank to get the pick is just wrong. So many picks and future picks are traded for every season; its a damn job just keeping up with it.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Buzzard