You can't draft for a championship

[DJlaysitup]

Well sure you can...and it's been done WAY more often than not.

(now I count getting rooks in trades about the same as draft picks)

Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar - famous co-pilot in the "Airplane" movie and leading scorer in the NBA) got a championship for his first team.

Larry Bird managed to get three championships for the Celtics...Magic Johnson managed to get four for the Lakers,

Micheal Jordan...drafted third by the Chicago Bulls...managed to help them along to six championships.

David Robinson and Tim Duncan were both drafted by the Spurs.

In truth...almost all championship teams have been created due to the draft.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Marilyn

[volman]

You said five instances where this happened and then said "almost all".

[Admin]

Oh good I'm glad we're talking about this, again. There are at least 5 other threads where this has been discussed and people are on one side or the other and aren't going to be swayed.

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

And this why we should tank.

Not saying that draft isn't important, but it should not be overvalued. Really, championship teams are 75% players attained in free agency or trades and 25% own draft picks. Derek Fisher and Kobe doesn't win championships without Fox, Shaq, Horry, Odom, or Gasol. Wade doesn't win three championships without Shaq, LeBron, or Bosh. Pierce doesn't get his one title without KG or Allen. The draft picks on the '04 Pistons team was Prince and Darko. Dirk doesn't get his without Chandler, Terry, Kidd, Stojakovic, or Marion.

[TheFuzz]

^I know this has been discussed ad naseum, but Horford is already our lottery guy. He's not a lead dog but I think he can definitely be a number 2.

[DrReality]

And how many superstars come along to draft that make champions? A handful

[coachx]

Well sure you can...and it's been done WAY more often than not.

(now I count getting rooks in trades about the same as draft picks)

Lew Alcindor (later Kareem Abdul Jabbar - famous co-pilot in the "Airplane" movie and leading scorer in the NBA) got a championship for his first team.

Larry Bird managed to get three championships for the Celtics...Magic Johnson managed to get four for the Lakers,

Micheal Jordan...drafted third by the Chicago Bulls...managed to help them along to six championships.

David Robinson and Tim Duncan were both drafted by the Spurs.

In truth...almost all championship teams have been created due to the draft.

1st getting rookies through trades is not the same as drafting player b/c your giving up assets to get that rookie vs. tanking and playing the lottery game to get your rookie.

Of course in the old days there was really no such thing as free agency. The team drafted you owned your rights forever unless they traded you.

Look at Birds Celticc. They also traded for Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, and Robert Parrish. (The 3 HOF that surrounded Bird).

Boston also traded valuable assets to the Atlanta Hawks for the rights to draft Bill Russell.

Look at The Mavericks team that won it all. They got Kidd, Chandler, Terry, Marion, Peja, Heywood, Butler, and Stevenson were all aquired through trade or free agency. They drafted their center piece in Dirk.

Boston got both Garnett and Allen through trade and drafted Rondo, Pierce, and Perkins. That is a nice combination there.

In truth teams are build through the draft, trades, and free agency.........and Ferry is open to all 3 ways aquring talent talent.

Edited July 16, 2013 by coachx

[Afro]

What I find hilarious is he names 6 guys in the HISTORY of the nba, and acts like this is the be all end all lol. Somewhere somehow some dude called a chick a fat cow and got her to sleep with him. Does that mean thats how I want to pick up girls?

[Wretch]

And this why we should tank.

Not saying that draft isn't important, but it should not be overvalued. Really, championship teams are 75% players attained in free agency or trades and 25% own draft picks. Derek Fisher and Kobe doesn't win championships without Fox, Shaq, Horry, Odom, or Gasol. Wade doesn't win three championships without Shaq, LeBron, or Bosh. Pierce doesn't get his one title without KG or Allen. The draft picks on the '04 Pistons team was Prince and Darko. Dirk doesn't get his without Chandler, Terry, Kidd, Stojakovic, or Marion.

Again...this is where the disconnect is happening. This is what you guys are arguing against:

Step one: Lose games and TANK

Step two: Win lottery

Step three: Draft Iverson

Step four: Sell jerseys, tickets, and get games on TV

Step five: Repeat steps one through four until you draft Kevin Durant

Step six: Championship in ur face

...and this is just not what myself and others are saying. If you do want to have that conversation, jump into the mega tank thread. But I do want to say something here. We're not relating the draft lottery exclusively to championships. We are comparing it to contenders and teams with dynamic young talent that elite players want to play with. We are also not talking about just winning the lottery. We're talking about drafting players in the upper part of the draft...period.

I personally am saying that if you trace key players (and usually THE key player) on any given contender, you will find that the team with that player either drafted him or traded a draft pick for him. You will also find in some cases that said player attracted another key component. I would LOVE for people to disprove this...because you take away Duncan, Wade, Dirk, Harden, Blake...then you have a totally different story on each of those clubs. And that pattern is FREQUENT. You can try to make the disconnect with semantics and whatnot, but at the end of the day...this is what contenders are doing. They are securing elite talent by means of the draft lottery or they are trading those picks for elite talent.

NOBODY is saying it's done only through the draft - not me anyway. I keep saying that this is done with trades, free agency, and the draft. I do believe though that drafting outside of the lottery and expecting elite talent is like trying to mine for gold in the worst part of the claim.

(PS - Bird rights came after...Larry Bird. Prior to that teams were handicapped in their ability to keep their own free agents. There was also no rookie salary scale, so any rookie idiot who had never played a game could demand 100 million dollars. Both of these things, in addition to having the right to match offers, have been addressed so that today's teams will have the advantage in retaining their drafted assets. Which also means it was harder to keep players back in the day and not easier.)

^I know this has been discussed ad naseum, but Horford is already our lottery guy. He's not a lead dog but I think he can definitely be a number 2.

So how do we get #1? Within 3 years at that...because Horf's an unrestricted free agent after that. Hope he "believes" in Danny Ferry the way Korver and his shiny new contract does.

[EazyRoc]

What I find hilarious is he names 6 guys in the HISTORY of the nba, and acts like this is the be all end all lol. Somewhere somehow some dude called a chick a fat cow and got her to sleep with him. Does that mean thats how I want to pick up girls?

Dirk, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Dr. J (can't remember if he was drafted or just joined the 76ers after the merger) basically almost every team that's won a ship in the last 30 years drafted their stars.

[Afro]

Dirk, Kobe, Tim Duncan, Michael Jordan, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, Dr. J (can't remember if he was drafted or just joined the 76ers after the merger) basically almost every team that's won a ship in the last 30 years drafted their stars.

And acquired the rest of the team. Like people have said, we have our lottery guy in Horford and we have two promising rookies in Schröder and Lucas.

If we get a 2 and 3 we will be dynamite in the east.

[Guest]

(PS - Bird rights came after...Larry Bird. Prior to that teams were handicapped in their ability to keep their own free agents. There was also no rookie salary scale, so any rookie idiot who had never played a game could demand 100 million dollars. Both of these things, in addition to having the right to match offers, have been addressed so that today's teams will have the advantage in retaining their drafted assets. Which also means it was harder to keep players back in the day and not easier.)

Just as I have said before, a moron who doesn't understand a lick about the CBA. The evidence is right here. Bird Rights came because of Larry Bird. You are trying to make it seem like he had nothing to do with him, but the cause of Bird Rights was to illustrate the situation that the Celtics would be put in if they were salary capped at the time. And when Bird was signed by the Celtics in 1983, the Bird Exception *did exist* however, the Celtics did not need to use it because they did not operate with a salary cap at the time.

"Prior to Bird Rights" referred to ONE season any team was hard capped (5 in 1983 actually). Before 1983, teams were not capped as there was no salary cap then (if you want to be accurate, there was one season in the 40s but that is it for caps). So the whole reference of some teams being handicapped to retain their own free agents referred to only ONE time in NBA history. In 1983, only a few teams were hard capped because they exceeded the agreed upon salary cap that was to be implemented in 1984-85. Any team below what would be the 84-85 salary cap in 1983 ($3.6m) were not operating with a cap and could spend as much money as they so choosed. The Celtics ended up spending $5m on just 6 players because they did not operate with a salary cap.

He clearly got this information from an article I posted to give him a reference on Bird Rights: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/sports_blog/2010/05/sports-legends-revealed-how-did-the-larry-bird-exception-to-the-nba-salary-cap-get-its-name.html The funny thing is his reading comprehension is so bad that he does not understand what actually happened. Of course his response was something like "oh yeah I so too know about Bird Rights and all of this stuff!!! [insert Big Dog reference]" This information clearly goes against his argument, but he is so shortsighted and dense that he cannot understand this.

No Wretch, you don't know shit. It was undoubtedly easier to retain players before 1984. Before 1988 there was no unrestricted free agency! So the only debatable times of whether it was easier/harder to retain players than it currently is is around 1988 to 2010. Undoubtedly, 1995-98 was harder to retain players because there was no restricted free agency. The other times it is debatable because the rookie scale did not come in to play until after 1994 and the individual max was not put in to play until 1998.

[AHF]

This subject has been discussed in a more more substantive way on several other threads. Building with lottery assets includes acquiring James Harden (two lottery picks for him and several teams with lottery picks rejected him in offer for them like Washington with Beal and Toronto with Jonas); Ray Allen (lottery pick for him); Scottie Pippen (young lottery pick player for him); Shaq (Miami dealt lottery talent for him); etc. All the pro and con on this has been hashed in a much more meaningful debate, IMO:

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/381632-merged-discussion-on-tanking/

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/382496-ways-to-acquire-players/

http://hawksquawk.net/community/topic/382722-mythsand-the-ultimate-truth/

[Diesel]

Luck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck LuckLuck Luck Luck Luck

OK. weather drafting or trading assets, you need LUCK..

But to end this thought about drafting in the lottery leading to championship play... Since I've been talking about Shelden, let's get a look at his draft class.

1.

Toronto

Andrea Bargnani 6-11 240 PF Italy 1985

2.

*Portland

LaMarcus Aldridge 6-11 234 PF Tex. So.

3.

Charlotte

Adam Morrison 6-8 198 SF Gonzaga Jr.

4.

*Chicago

Tyrus Thomas 6-8 217 PF LSU Fr.

5.

Atlanta

Shelden Williams 6-9 258 PF/C Duke Sr.

6.

*Portland

Brandon Roy 6-6 207 SG Washington Sr.

7.

*Minnesota

Randy Foye 6-3 212 PG Villanova Sr.

8.

*Memphis

Rudy Gay 6-8 222 SF UConn So.

9.

Golden St.

Patrick O'Bryant 7-0 249 C Bradley So.

10.

Seattle

Saer Sene 7-0 237 C Sen. 1986

11.

Orlando

JJ Redick 6-5 190 SG Duke Sr.

12.

NO/OK City

Hilton Armstrong 6-11 240 C UConn Sr.

13.

*Chicago

Thabo Sefolosha 6-6 213 SG Switz. 1984

14.

Utah

Ronnie Brewer 6-7 223 SG Arkansas Jr.

Only Sefolosha has seen an NBA championship game.

It's been 7 years.

[EazyRoc]

That was a weak draft class and was considered as such at the time too. I agree though, you either need luck or #1 pick to find the right player in the draft.

[EazyRoc]

And acquired the rest of the team. Like people have said, we have our lottery guy in Horford and we have two promising rookies in Schröder and Lucas. If we get a 2 and 3 we will be dynamite in the east.

The Spurs championships were built entirely through the draft. The Bulls were too. So were the Celtics and Lakers in the 80s (if I remember correctly). If we just get a 2 or 3 we aren't going any farther than we've been going. We need a franchise changer and there are a couple in this next draft apparently.

[Afro]

The Spurs championships were built entirely through the draft. The Bulls were too. So were the Celtics and Lakers in the 80s (if I remember correctly). If we just get a 2 or 3 we aren't going any farther than we've been going. We need a franchise changer and there are a couple in this next draft apparently.

Outside of Duncan the Spurs were built through mid and late round picks. How is that different then us?

Horford(3rd)

Schröder(mid)

Bebe(mid)

Musc(late)

Cunningham(trade/later round)

Jenkins(mid-late)

Scott(late)

All those players could really become something in this league.

People can say that these guys are crap and wont win us anything, but how can we know? Theyre all rookies/2nd year guys outside of Horford. Who is to say 3-4 years from now

Schröder

Jenkins

Scott

Horford

Bebe

wont be equal talent level to the Spurs?

[Afro]

Really HIGH hopes but that team could look like

Rondo

Ray Allen mini lite small version

Kawhi (Scott needs to work on defense, but that can be taught)

Horford

Big Ibaka/Tyson Chandler

That is DEFINITELY a championship team. Who knows if they turn out anything like these players, but with growth and experience who knows?

Not to mention we could have Millsap off the bench playing 30 minutes for that team. If he decides to stick around, and any other FA we pick up.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Afro

[PSSSHHHRRR87]

Again...this is where the disconnect is happening. This is what you guys are arguing against:

Step one: Lose games and TANK

Step two: Win lottery

Step three: Draft Iverson

Step four: Sell jerseys, tickets, and get games on TV

Step five: Repeat steps one through four until you draft Kevin Durant

Step six: Championship in ur face

...and this is just not what myself and others are saying. If you do want to have that conversation, jump into the mega tank thread. But I do want to say something here. We're not relating the draft lottery exclusively to championships. We are comparing it to contenders and teams with dynamic young talent that elite players want to play with. We are also not talking about just winning the lottery. We're talking about drafting players in the upper part of the draft...period.

I personally am saying that if you trace key players (and usually THE key player) on any given contender, you will find that the team with that player either drafted him or traded a draft pick for him. You will also find in some cases that said player attracted another key component. I would LOVE for people to disprove this...because you take away Duncan, Wade, Dirk, Harden, Blake...then you have a totally different story on each of those clubs. And that pattern is FREQUENT. You can try to make the disconnect with semantics and whatnot, but at the end of the day...this is what contenders are doing. They are securing elite talent by means of the draft lottery or they are trading those picks for elite talent.

NOBODY is saying it's done only through the draft - not me anyway. I keep saying that this is done with trades, free agency, and the draft. I do believe though that drafting outside of the lottery and expecting elite talent is like trying to mine for gold in the worst part of the claim.

(PS - Bird rights came after...Larry Bird. Prior to that teams were handicapped in their ability to keep their own free agents. There was also no rookie salary scale, so any rookie idiot who had never played a game could demand 100 million dollars. Both of these things, in addition to having the right to match offers, have been addressed so that today's teams will have the advantage in retaining their drafted assets. Which also means it was harder to keep players back in the day and not easier.)

I have actually been avoiding the tank threads because I am really 70/30 on the issue (favoring anti-tank). I agree with what you have said here, but what I have a problem with is the guys that think that a top 5 pick makes a guy a sure thing when that couldn't further from the truth. These guys believe it's okay to waste an entire season on a chance to draft a player high in the draft and then go forth with the chance that he lives up to the expectations. The chances that a top picks pans out is really 25/25/50 with him being a bust, a star, or he turns out to be a solid tier A/B player (see Ray Allen, Elton Brand, Al Horford). For all of the drafts that a superstar have was drafted, there have been just as many busts and good players to come from those drafts. '96 and '03 and possibly '14 are anomalies in draft history. I am just not okay wasting an entire season so that we can have a chance for a chance that a guy pans out. Paul George and James Harden weren't drafted high either. Tanking or shooting for 30-win season to get a high draft pick sounds just as desperate as these teams that build for one-year shots at titles (i.e. '04 Lakers w/ Payton & Malone and more presently '13 Nets w/ Pierce & KG). He may not seem like much, but our "key guy" is Al Horford who was drafted third overall for us. Teague was also one of our draft picks and we may have an elite PG in the waiting who was drafted 17. As I said before, I don't like going for a chance on a chance. It's like holding a raffle to win a lotto ticket. And nobody is trading a top pick in '14.

I agree with you on your argument. A contender is built through FA, draft, and trades, but my point is that neither area should be valued more than the other. A high draft pick is not a sure thing. Trading for a talent or signing him in free agency isn't a sure thing either because it depends on the players around him and the scheme. I've seen a lot more teams in the top 10 of drafts only to be there again the next season then I've seen teams go from rags to riches. The Mavs sucked, then got Dirk, but after Dirk, they will likely go down the tubes again. It's all luck and having an eye for drafting talent. Really the Joe era for the Hawks was built exactly the way you suggested. Traded for Joe, Jamal, and Bibby... Drafted Josh, Horf, and Teague... Signed their bench. Now we are doing it again with drafting Jenkins and Schröder, sigining Millsap and Lou, and traded for Korver and trading Joe and Marv. The process is repeating.

[EazyRoc]

Outside of Duncan the Spurs were built through mid and late round picks. How is that different then us? Horford(3rd)Schröder(mid)Bebe(mid)Musc(late)Cunningham(trade/later round)Jenkins(mid-late)Scott(late) All those players could really become something in this league. People can say that these guys are crap and wont win us anything, but how can we know? Theyre all rookies/2nd year guys outside of Horford. Who is to say 3-4 years from now SchröderJenkinsScottHorfordBebe wont be equal talent level to the Spurs?

David Robinson ? Also, You're doing a lot of wishful thinking if you believe Schröder can become Parker like, Jenkins can become Manu like, and Horford can become Duncan. Its a stretch. If that's what were are banking on, we will probably be disappointed year in and year out.Hell, I'm not convinced the Spurs make it to the Finals if some of their competitors didn't get bit by the injury bug. That team definitely does not beat Miami unless James is hurt.