Braves have traded BJ Upton and Craig Kimbrel

[Gray Mule]

Fact:  To make an omelet you must break some eggs.

 

Over the years, Braves have loaded their major league roster with players with huge contracts.

They have let their minor league system go to pot.

 

The Braves, of necessity, have temporarily gotten worse in order to improve.  With all the veteran

players that they have traded away, they have received a multitude of prospects and many draft

choices.  With a new, upgraded scouting system in place, these draft picks become very important.

 

Many, many years ago, before many of you were born and before free agency, I heard this story:

 

Pittsburg Pirates ended up in last place - again.  However, one of their players had a great season.

He went to the GM and asked about a raise.  "No.  We ended up in last place despite your good

year.  We could have easily ended up in last place without you."

 

With all the players the Atlanta team had, they still fell on their face and missed the playoffs - again.

We could have done that without these players.

 

Atlanta Braves, who just shed $36 million is payroll, may not win as much this season.  Don't count

on this, however.  They lost a lot of games last season.

 

Since the end of last season, Atlanta has gone from one of the poorest farm systems in the majors

to one of the best.  As we add in all those new draft picks coming soon, the farm will get still better.

 

Sure, we lost the premier closer in baseball.  As sad as it is to think, ask yourself, "What good is it

to have this great closer when you enter the 9th inning down two or three runs?"  If you can't score

then you can't win. 

[frosgrim]

Sorry, the pitcher we got back is only ranked 70th among top prospects. His most optimistic projection is 3rd or 4th MLB starter. Horrible trade.

I'm not happy with the return either, but I see different rankings on Wisler: 34th in baseball, #1 in the Padres system. The outfield prospect is not ranked high, but has speed and a glove. The 41st pick is interesting, but nothing to bang the drum about. 

 

Wisler has a A+ fastball in the upper 90s. He's in the strike zone with the fastball, but needs to learn to locate it better. In AAA he had a homer problem probably because he's used to blowing guys away. If he can pitch on the corner and at the chest on the inner half he's going to be dominant. 

As with all prospects, the "ifs" outweigh the knowns right now. 

 

I'm still OK with the massive rebuild. The minors were a dumpster fire. If I've learned anything from watching baseball since an early teen is that good clubs, winning clubs, have excellent minor league systems. That excellence includes getting the right talent, but also having all the coaching working together to develop a mindset and approach to the game. For the Braves it used to be develop pitchers that can locate on the lower outside corner and change speeds. I'm not sure what the guys are being instructed on now in the minors. 

 

My main point, the foundation of the organization was rotten to the core and it had to be torn down to the slab and put up with new studs before the roof and walls can be hung. The minor leagues are the studs of any baseball organization and now we have some good ones- or at least the Braves hope they do. And, hope is really all we have today. 

[Dejay]

I understand it to a...nah, I actually don't.

All of this talk of prospects and looking towards the future irks me to no end. It took the Pirates over 20 years to become good again; did those fans get a refund for buying tickets for lost seasons in 1997 or 2003?

Looking at 2017 does nothing as far as 2015 is concerned. Tickets, parking, and concessions aren't going to be free in the meantime...

[Guest]

I'm not happy with the return either, but I see different rankings on Wisler: 34th in baseball, #1 in the Padres system. The outfield prospect is not ranked high, but has speed and a glove. The 41st pick is interesting, but nothing to bang the drum about. 

 

Wisler has a A+ fastball in the upper 90s. He's in the strike zone with the fastball, but needs to learn to locate it better. In AAA he had a homer problem probably because he's used to blowing guys away. If he can pitch on the corner and at the chest on the inner half he's going to be dominant. 

As with all prospects, the "ifs" outweigh the knowns right now. 

 

I'm still OK with the massive rebuild. The minors were a dumpster fire. If I've learned anything from watching baseball since an early teen is that good clubs, winning clubs, have excellent minor league systems. That excellence includes getting the right talent, but also having all the coaching working together to develop a mindset and approach to the game. For the Braves it used to be develop pitchers that can locate on the lower outside corner and change speeds. I'm not sure what the guys are being instructed on now in the minors. 

 

My main point, the foundation of the organization was rotten to the core and it had to be torn down to the slab and put up with new studs before the roof and walls can be hung. The minor leagues are the studs of any baseball organization and now we have some good ones- or at least the Braves hope they do. And, hope is really all we have today. 

 

Really appreciate your perspective and insight.  I'm still in pissed off mode but I do understand that the minors had to be rebuilt.  Only problem is, as @Dejay put it, this is a dangerous game to play.  Just because there are "prospects" in the minors it doesn't mean they'll eventually make an impact on the real team.  That's the hope but that's basically what the Pirates, Royals, etc. have been selling.  Granted, the Royals made the World Series, but how many years - no - decades did that take.  In the meantime, I don't hear anyone talking about ticket price drops.

 

Come to think of it, sounds like we have a prospect-heavy minors and an on-the-cheap strategy at the major league level.  Sounds like we're on our way to being a feeder system for the real teams in MLB the way most bottom feeders are.  When the Yankees need a starter (Teheran) or a position player (Simmons) who's up to make some dough I expect them to come a-callin'.  Fresh off these next several years of losing on the cheap I don't expect them to show any loyalty to the AAAA Barves.

 

You know what, a lot of the losing was due to having an awful manager.  Yet he stays?  It's funny how, when a team loses and a coach/manager is fired, people say "well, you can't fire the player".  Looks like the Barves are testing that theory and have decided to fire the players instead.  HA!

 

Meanwhile, Heyward wasn't good enough for the Barves but debuts 3 for 5 with 2 doubles, a run and a SB.  Nah, I don't want none of that action bawse.

[Dejay]

I'm simply not buying their brand of 'wait 3 years and we'll have something'. That's the same, tired line I've heard from countless Braves' managers and Falcon coaches in my childhood; from Chuck Tanner to Marion Campbell to Russ Nixon. Just because you bring in some young guys to develop doesn't guarantee you anything at the big boy level, which is all that matters in the long-term scheme of things. As I've stated before, it took the Pirates over two decades to become good again; the Royals three. During that span of time, how often did their fans hear of the 'great prospects' in the minors that will turn their franchises around? How many times they hear about 'upside' and 'potential' of draft picks after pawning off one decent major leaguer after the other at the All-Star break or during the winter meetings? How many guys did they hear of in AAA who were going to be world-beaters end up as total flops?

 

The prime directive of any team on the professional level should be to win world titles. That is it. That is all. Patience may suit you well in rec league, high school, or maybe even college but not in the pros. I don't pay $$$ to see bad movies, eat bad food, or watch bad sports teams, much less return for seconds. I don't live in Richmond or Savannah so I don't care about minor league players or minor league teams that 'grow together'. I don't care who's doing what in double-A. They can have a dumpster fire in the minors for all I'm concerned, so long as the Braves are playing well into October and bringing home the big belt.

 

You guys all know me on this board; I've never EVER been a fan of waiting on the come. That's why I've always been an advocate of making moves if a certain team (particularly, a certain local NBA team) didn't have enough to make a strong run for the title. I've always been of the adage of 'don't tell me about the labor, show me the baby'.

[Guest]

Lol.  @Dejay does not want to know what's in the sausage.  Just give him a nice sausage sammich and call it a day.  I totally agree.

 

 I certainly understand a strong minors is a part of major league success.  However, I'm not ok with that being the only thing to hang one's hat on.

[Sothron]

That's my problem with this thinking. Yes, you need a good minor league system. That does NOT mean you have to gut the MLB roster and refuse to pay for players. The two are mutually exclusive. The ownership is simply too cheap to keep any players with real talent and the ones we did have under a contract are now being traded right out from under us. They wouldn't pay to keep Upton or Heyward and just dumped Kimbrel. I fully expect them to trade Simmons and Freeman, Teheran hell anyone else not on the cheap rookie scale contracts.

[ATLHawks3]

I had a nights rest to sleep over it, and I'm still pissed. Now that we've acquired so many pitching prospects, it's time for the Braves to find some really good position players in this years upcoming MLB Draft. We have picks number 14, 28, 41, & 54, which are all pretty high draft picks.

[Dejay]

You are definitely correct LOL. I don't want to hear about all of the time and trouble you put into making my dinner. I paid for that already; I don't need the pity party.

 

I don't think I ever heard a Red Sox fan say 'well, our team stinks but those guys in Pawtucket are going to good for us in five years...'

[AHF]

Simmons is not remotely in the same position as Kimbrel.  

 

You guys realize that MLB commentators have been writing articles about how the Braves need to trade Kimbrel for over a year now, right?  He was a prime trade candidate.  Simmons is not.  Simmons is a long-term asset.

 

http://sports.politicususa.com/2015/01/22/why-the-atlanta-braves-should-trade-craig-kimbrel.html

 

http://bloguin.com/theoutsidecorner/2015-articles/braves-craig-kimbrel-trade-not-easy.html

 

http://www.rantsports.com/mlb/2014/02/13/atlanta-braves-should-look-to-trade-closer-craig-kimbrel/

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1887859-best-potential-trade-packages-and-landing-spots-for-braves-closer-craig-kimbrel

 

http://www.talkingchop.com/2013/10/22/4863806/time-to-trade-kimbrel

 

Here is the NBC wrap on the trade (summary:  Bad for the Padres):

 

Kimbrel is awesome. He’s quite possibly the best in baseball at what he does, and since he’s 26 and on a reasonable contract for the next three years, he’s no rental. He was a major trade asset. And the Padres should have left him alone.

Because to get Kimbrel, the Padres had to take on the $46.35 million that Melvin Upton Jr. is due the next three years. They also had to give up their top pitching prospect in Matthew Wisler, the No. 41 pick in the 2015 draft (which was tradeable because it was a competitive balance pick) and a decent outfield prospect in Jordan Paroubeck (the team’s second-round pick in 2013). And now that they have Kimbrel, they’ve sent two perfectly fine setup man, Maurer and Quackenbush, to Triple-A to twiddle their thumbs until there’s a need in the pen.

Now, I don't love this trade.  I am a big Kimbrel fan, but I do agree with one piece of the logic here:  A top closer has little value on a non-contender and relief pitchers are not long-term commodities.

[frosgrim]

I hear what everyone is saying about waiting 20 years for a rebuild to work- e.g. Pirates and Royals. However, there are other examples of a team selling off assets for minor league talent and contending with a few years. Hell, the Marlins have done this 3 times now. Second, the Red Sox did this two years before the World Series runs. They were a vet team that had maxed out and their minors were depleted. They brought in Theo and he remade the entire organization in a few short years. The Giants did it to some degree as well. 

 

My point is you can't just keep spending on free agents in any sport, but especially in baseball. You have to have the minors producing the bulk of your talent and then supplement with a key free agent. Take the Yankees as an example. They became  good in the modern era because they had a productive minors system in the early to mid-90s. That system produced Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Petiti, Posada- the core of their WS runs. They also used stock-pilled talent on trades for vets.  But they had to have the talent to do that. Now they are trying to overcome the lack of talent in the minors by singing more FAs- costing them 1st round picks- a vicious and non-productive cycle. 

 

I'd hoped for more of a return on Kimbrel, but I guess getting rid of Upton's contract in itself can be seen as a financial asset. They can now use some of the stock-piled talent to get a young, productive hitter when they feel it is time. 

 

I also share the feeling that Liberty is an awful owner for the Braves. 

[Gray Mule]

PANIC !!  THE SKY IS FALLING !!

 

Losing our closer will not make THAT much difference to the Braves.  We could lose

with him here.  We did last season.  B.J. Marvin Upton is gone.  He that took too many

called third strikes and hit for a high average. Not!

 

Last season, Braves always attempted to hit that three run homer whether anyone was

on base or not.  They hit some home runs but lost a lot of games.  To manufacture runs

was alien to them.  That just wasn't the proper way to play baseball, apparently.

 

Some players refused to change.  Others couldn't change.  The ability to lay down a bunt

to advance a runner didn't ever happen.

 

Bunts, hit and run, run and hit and sometimes a stolen base will be more the norm for this

years team.  Plus, we have traded for some pretty good pitching.

 

All is not lost.  Atlanta will win a few games.  Wait and see.

[ATLHawks3]

Jason Grilli will be our new closer. I hope he brings atleast 70% of what Kimbrel gave to us.

[Sothron]

Jason Grilli will be our new closer. I hope he brings atleast 70% of what Kimbrel gave to us.

 

Dude is 38 freaking years old. He is not the answer long term at closer. If only we had a closer that lead the entire MLB in saves the last few years. Oh wait...

[Sothron]

I hear what everyone is saying about waiting 20 years for a rebuild to work- e.g. Pirates and Royals. However, there are other examples of a team selling off assets for minor league talent and contending with a few years. Hell, the Marlins have done this 3 times now. Second, the Red Sox did this two years before the World Series runs. They were a vet team that had maxed out and their minors were depleted. They brought in Theo and he remade the entire organization in a few short years. The Giants did it to some degree as well. 

 

My point is you can't just keep spending on free agents in any sport, but especially in baseball. You have to have the minors producing the bulk of your talent and then supplement with a key free agent. Take the Yankees as an example. They became  good in the modern era because they had a productive minors system in the early to mid-90s. That system produced Jeter, Williams, Rivera, Petiti, Posada- the core of their WS runs. They also used stock-pilled talent on trades for vets.  But they had to have the talent to do that. Now they are trying to overcome the lack of talent in the minors by singing more FAs- costing them 1st round picks- a vicious and non-productive cycle. 

 

I'd hoped for more of a return on Kimbrel, but I guess getting rid of Upton's contract in itself can be seen as a financial asset. They can now use some of the stock-piled talent to get a young, productive hitter when they feel it is time. 

 

I also share the feeling that Liberty is an awful owner for the Braves. 

 

 

The last part is what is behind all of this. Just like with the Hawks and A$G we have a very cheap Braves ownership that won't spend money. Trading Heyward and then signing the very definition of a mediocre outfielder in Markakis is exactly what we fans can expect: don't keep any actual talent that costs money and settle on paying cheaply for mediocre talent. This scrub is going to bat in the middle of the order for us and he hit .276 with 14 HR last season.

 

You can develop your minor league system and still pay top dollar for players. There is no rule, no law in baseball that says you either have an overpriced veteran team OR a good minor league system. You can actually do both. Right now this team in the next two years will be lucky to lose only 100 games a season.

[ATLHawks3]

Dude is 38 freaking years old. He is not the answer long term at closer. If only we had a closer that lead the entire MLB in saves the last few years. Oh wait...

 

I'm hoping that he could be as dominant as he was when he was with the Pirates a few years ago. I'm still devastated that one of my favorite Braves ever is gone..

[AHF]

The last part is what is behind all of this. Just like with the Hawks and A$G we have a very cheap Braves ownership that won't spend money. Trading Heyward and then signing the very definition of a mediocre outfielder in Markakis is exactly what we fans can expect: don't keep any actual talent that costs money and settle on paying cheaply for mediocre talent. This scrub is going to bat in the middle of the order for us and he hit .276 with 14 HR last season.

 

Yeah - I have nothing good to say about the Markakis signing. 

Edited April 6, 2015 by AHF

[Dejay]

I totally agree with Soth here. Yeah, they lost with Kimbrel last year but was one year removed from a 96-win season and division title. I didn't hear any noise at this time last year going into the season about a rebuild.

 

While I guess it makes sense from a long-term point of view, it just doesn't to me because I could care less about 2017 and beyond as far as my sports teams are concerned. Are they winning now? Are they a contender now? Can they compete for something worth bragging about now? I don't see teams hanging up banners for having the best minor league prospects; you?

 

And even by going this route, it still isn't a guarantee for success a year or two later. Didn't we learn anything watching BK blow one draft pick after another when the Hawks were losers over a decade ago? How much did Marvin, Osh, and Childress develop while they were here? The vast success they're having right now can be attributed to the fact that all of BK's guys are gone except for Horford.

 

This has all the makings of another 'Major League' movie ripoff, except the stadium move has already been done. You have an ownership group who is somewhere in Denver printing $$$ and a front office who is in complete cruise control until Suntrust Park opens up. If it weren't for Philly, this would be a last-place team with a bullet. I could be proven wrong...but I doubt it...

Edited April 6, 2015 by Dejay

[AHF]

Philly is what happens when you hold your vets and fan favorites and keep trying to contend while the farm system erodes.  Fans would not have loved it but they would be much better off having traded Papelbon, Lee and Hamels and gotten some prospects in the pipeline.  I do like the fact that we are clearly emphasizing pitching in all these deals.  We will contend much faster with an elite staff than getting better bats.  Mike Trout is a beast but is waiting to play meaningful minutes in the post-season.  A few starting pitchers emerging can do a lot more for a team a lot faster than anything else.

Edited April 6, 2015 by AHF

[Dejay]

You don't have to hold on to guys until they are clearly past their prime like Philly stupidly did. That's why I've always been an advocate of making moves when the talent you have show any signs of erosion and/or not living up to the hype. Lee, Hamels, Howard, and Papelbon would've been shipped out awhile ago if I was in charge; especially when the 95-win seasons stopped happening. The key is moving them while getting guys back that can keep you at the top of contention or at worst, have you back there very shortly (i.e. less than two years). Fans simply don't have the patience to wait it out...too many sporting and entertainment options out there...