Was Billy Knight ahead of his time?

[Atlantaholic]

Why can't we just pretend Billy Knight never happened and just enjoy not being a punchline of a franchise anymore?

[ATLien_]

Even a good plan can be derailed by sloppy execution. For me BK's biggest mistake was hiring Mike Woodson; Mike had no interest in developing young players on a rebuilding team, which makes no sense. We would draft players and if there was a veteran that could walk and chew bubble gum Woodson would prioritize a mediocre vet. Jeff Teague nearly became a bust under that regime.

I'll also add BK wanted to fire Woodson on at least two separate ocassions and was denied by the ASG because they were cheap SOB's. I think he finally realized his draft picks weren't being developed, but he had already given Woodson that contract.

[Diesel]

That sounds like every GM because it is a generalized statement.

 

He wanted talented players.

 

STOP THE PRESSES!  This is revolutionary!

 

Long and athletic players!  Not like there aren't drinking games because these terms are so overused by GMs and draft analysts.

 

Capable of playing more than one position!  No one thought of this before.  Imagine how good John Havlicek would have been had Boston thought to use him at multiple positions.

 

So this supposedly revolutionary idea is to get talented, long, athletic and versatile players.  And this made him some kind of savant?  Too bad Cleveland lucked into Lebron James when it was really only BK who saw his greatness.

 

You guys are giving too much credit to his general mission statement here and too little what he actually did as GM.

 

It is a mission statement... but let's talk about why it was different.

 

Long and Athletic.  There may be drinking games about that now.. but not then.   This is where the 6'8 team stuff came from.   Secondly,  Players that can play more than one position.  Again, another first by BK.  BK's muse.. unfortunately.. was Marvin Williams.   He had no talent in picking that talented player.  However, in the hands of somebody who does know talent, this mission statement has been proven to win.

[TheNorthCydeRises]

Even a good plan can be derailed by sloppy execution. For me BK's biggest mistake was hiring Mike Woodson; Mike had no interest in developing young players on a rebuilding team, which makes no sense. We would draft players and if there was a veteran that could walk and chew bubble gum Woodson would prioritize a mediocre vet. Jeff Teague nearly became a bust under that regime.

I'll also add BK wanted to fire Woodson on at least two separate ocassions and was denied by the ASG because they were cheap SOB's. I think he finally realized his draft picks weren't being developed, but he had already given Woodson that contract.

This is not true. Every 1st round pick, except Jeff Teague, played immediately under Woody.

1st year minutes

Childress - 29.7

Smith - 27.7

Marvin - 24.7

Shelden - 18.7

Horford - 31.4

Acie - 15.4 .... ( 21.4 minutes in Nov, started 5 games. before injury )

Teague - 10.1

It was Woody who took Josh Smith off the wing, and tried desperately to play him at PF. He had his best season as a pro in 2009 - 10, when he stopped taking 3s ( per Woody's request )

It was Woody that tried to develop a post game for Horford. Once Woody left, he all but abandoned trying to become a better post scorer.

It was Woody that maximized the abilities of Josh Childress, by giving him the freedom to race the ball up the court and attack the rim from the SF spot

It was Woody who encouraged Marvin to expand his range to 3 point land. Marvin shot 35.5% from 3 in 2008 - 09, but couldn't consistently make the shot.

It was Woody who was committed to start Acie after the 2nd game of his career, then did it again later that season. Acue got hurt both times.

And despite all the negativity to ISO JOE, it was Woody treating him like Lebron lite ( out of necessity ), that saw that dude go from a very good combo guard in Phoenix, to a 4 time All Star under Woody.

What Woody didn't do, was play scrubs. And when those scrubs left Atlanta, who ended up being a better player?

Salim Stoudamire? ... no

Solomon Jones? .... no

Mario West? .......... no

Royal Ivey? ........... he got more PT in Milwaukee and Philly, buy never showed more than being a backup PG type.

And how about the 1st round picks that didn't pan out here.

- Marvin isn't better now, than he was in 2007 - 2009.

- Acie didn't pan out anywhere else

- Shelden bounced around the league like a ping pong ball

- Childress became an NBA scrub once he came back from Greece

Woody wasn't the greatest tactician in the world by any stretch of the imagination. But he took a team that was gutted to the core, and slowly built them up to be a consistent playoff team. And they improved in each of his 6 seasons as the Hawks coach.

Most fans think Woody was an F grade coach. In reality, he was more in the B-/C+ range. And he proved that when he guided the Knicks, of all teams, to their first 54+ win season since 1997.

Woody > BK

[Guest]

Well said. I still think calling him an idiot is a little strong. Just as giving him or -'Antoni much credit for what the Warriors are doing is also strong.

The Warriors won because they played defense, something D'Antoni's teams never did.

[Johnnybravo4]

BK wanted similar sized athletes where as today's strategy is to have similar sized skilled players. IE 5 Kaw Leonards are better than 5 Josh Smiths

[Watchman]

He may have been ahead of his time, but he was not good at implementing his ideas.  Why did he waste a lottery pick on Marvin, when we were loaded with tweener forwards, and needed a PG desperately?  Why waste a lottery pick on Sheldon, when there were so many better players available?  Likewise with Childress.  If we end up with all these 6'5" - 6'7" guys on the team, it does seem like an implementation of BK's concept somewhat, but I have a sneaky suspicion it will work out better for us using other teams' castaways than BK's multiple lottery picks.

[AHF]

It is a mission statement... but let's talk about why it was different.

 

Long and Athletic.  There may be drinking games about that now.. but not then.   This is where the 6'8 team stuff came from.   Secondly,  Players that can play more than one position.  Again, another first by BK.  BK's muse.. unfortunately.. was Marvin Williams.   He had no talent in picking that talented player.  However, in the hands of somebody who does know talent, this mission statement has been proven to win.

 

I don't think that was nearly as new or revolutionary as you do.  A first that players can play more than one position?  BK?  Really?

[Guest]

I don't think that was nearly as new or revolutionary as you do.  A first that players can play more than one position?  BK?  Really?

[Guest]

I don't think that was nearly as new or revolutionary as you do. A first that players can play more than one position? BK? Really?

I'd prolly say it was Red Auerbach, just guessing.

[AHF]

I'd prolly say it was Red Auerbach, just guessing.

 

No doubt Red did that.  I kind of doubt that it was new even then, though.  Remember that positions weren't as defined early in the game of basketball as they became by the 1980s.  I am going to say that it has always been part of the game.

[Diesel]

I don't think that was nearly as new or revolutionary as you do.  A first that players can play more than one position?  BK?  Really?

 

Unfortunately, it was BK who was the first to impart interchangable, multiposition players into a mission statement.  No doubt there has been players who played different positions.  Magic.   There have been a move for players who skillset didn't fit their size... ala Point Forward (after Pippen).  However, BK was the first to go out and seek guys who could both be multipositioned and have a team that had players that were readily interchangable.  As you said, it was his Mission statement.  I have been watching GMs for years... back before Wayne Embry said that "the only way you can win in this league is to have the right players playing in the right positions (PG, SG, SF, PF, and C)." and then he went on to allow the three bombardiers to be part of his starting lineup because of injuries.  However, BK started with it in mind that he was going to go out and get interchangable, positionless guys... he was the first. 

 

 

Side Note:

There are still other ideas that came along that will gain traction simply based on how we are going and those persons who came up with these ideas first deserve credit.

 

1.  RUN and GUN... Paul Westhead.   Everybody says that Pat Riley came up with Showtime.   BS.  Pat Riley was a play by play guy... ala Steve Kerr.  Who inherited a team that had been taught run and gun by Westhead and he won a championship with them.   After leaving LAL, Riley had nothing that resembled Showtime because Showtime wasn't his idea.

 

2.  The 3 point offense.  George Karl.   Probably a year or two after Kemp left Seattle, Karl created a 3 point offense in Seattle.  I would say that our offense is more similar to what Karl had with Payton, Baker and those guys than what San Antonio runs now.  They are all related.  The only real difference are the pin down sets we run that relates us back to San Antonio.

 

3.  The pick and fence...   Pick and roll comes a little later.   I believe it was Reggie Miller and those Davis boys who executed the pick and fence offense to excellence.  It was something that Larry Bird made up with the help of Rick Carlisle.

 

4.  Pick and Roll... I can't give credit to Jerry Sloan, but he mastered it.  I remember Utah with Mark Eaton at C.  That team was never as good as when they finally got rid of Mark Eaton and had big guys who could play opposite the pick and roll.   None were great but everybody in Sloan's pick and roll had a role and knew it.

 

5.  Opportunistic Fast Break...  K.C. Jones.   K.C. Jones with the Celtics and later with the Supersonics ran an "opportunistic" fast break.  It's so smart.  He knew he had older vets and some were no so athletic... both they could score.  So instead of running the fast break that he ran as a celtic, he ran the fast break on certain opportunities.  He let his big decide when the break was on.  That's important because he had a very good passing team.  So the fast break wasn't about outrunning anybody.  It was about having the small guys get out and the bigs making the right passes.   The ball never touched the ground.  Nobody dribbled the ball to death.  It was like watching a game of hot potatoe.   By the end, the ball was close to the hoop and the big man was always trailing.

[Guest]

Unfortunately, it was BK who was the first to impart interchangable, multiposition players into a mission statement. No doubt there has been players who played different positions. Magic. There have been a move for players who skillset didn't fit their size... ala Point Forward (after Pippen). However, BK was the first to go out and seek guys who could both be multipositioned and have a team that had players that were readily interchangable. As you said, it was his Mission statement. I have been watching GMs for years... back before Wayne Embry said that "the only way you can win in this league is to have the right players playing in the right positions (PG, SG, SF, PF, and C)." and then he went on to allow the three bombardiers to be part of his starting lineup because of injuries. However, BK started with it in mind that he was going to go out and get interchangable, positionless guys... he was the first.

Side Note:

There are still other ideas that came along that will gain traction simply based on how we are going and those persons who came up with these ideas first deserve credit.

1. RUN and GUN... Paul Westhead. Everybody says that Pat Riley came up with Showtime. BS. Pat Riley was a play by play guy... ala Steve Kerr. Who inherited a team that had been taught run and gun by Westhead and he won a championship with them. After leaving LAL, Riley had nothing that resembled Showtime because Showtime wasn't his idea.

2. The 3 point offense. George Karl. Probably a year or two after Kemp left Seattle, Karl created a 3 point offense in Seattle. I would say that our offense is more similar to what Karl had with Payton, Baker and those guys than what San Antonio runs now. They are all related. The only real difference are the pin down sets we run that relates us back to San Antonio.

3. The pick and fence... Pick and roll comes a little later. I believe it was Reggie Miller and those Davis boys who executed the pick and fence offense to excellence. It was something that Larry Bird made up with the help of Rick Carlisle.

4. Pick and Roll... I can't give credit to Jerry Sloan, but he mastered it. I remember Utah with Mark Eaton at C. That team was never as good as when they finally got rid of Mark Eaton and had big guys who could play opposite the pick and roll. None were great but everybody in Sloan's pick and roll had a role and knew it.

5. Opportunistic Fast Break... K.C. Jones. K.C. Jones with the Celtics and later with the Supersonics ran an "opportunistic" fast break. It's so smart. He knew he had older vets and some were no so athletic... both they could score. So instead of running the fast break that he ran as a celtic, he ran the fast break on certain opportunities. He let his big decide when the break was on. That's important because he had a very good passing team. So the fast break wasn't about outrunning anybody. It was about having the small guys get out and the bigs making the right passes. The ball never touched the ground. Nobody dribbled the ball to death. It was like watching a game of hot potatoe. By the end, the ball was close to the hoop and the big man was always trailing.

Run and gun was also Doug Moe/Don Nelson...late 80's early 90's Nuggets and Warriors